[INFJ] Any INFJ ladies with narcissistic mothers?

[Gloriana]

I grew up with an extremely narcissistic grandmother and passive (ignoring type) narcissistic mother. I'm talking in the clinical sense, not just the every day usage of the word. I've been delving into this a lot recently, reading a lot about the traumas and emotional issues a lot of daughters with narcissistic mothers have to cope with in life.

I started thinking about how growing up with the mother that I did contributed to my development in terms of my INFJ personality type. I've seen some really interesting correlations.

1. The extreme empathy - From the time I was born, my mother basically wanted me to fill voids for her. It was never about what was best for my growth as an individual person as much as it was about meeting her needs for someone to love her, someone to be an ideal family member she never had, etc. I think I felt this as soon as I was conscious of the world. I'm very in tune to the needs of others before my own, this is a hallmark of both the INFJ and the daughter of a narcissistic mother.

2. The 'mind reading' or 'psychic' ability - The whole thing where people always swear you can read their mind because of how many intricate details you can hone in on in terms of their personality, thoughts, etc. My mother never stated her needs and wants aloud but would react with anger and withdrawal of her affection anyway if they were not met. Obviously, this lead to me observing like crazy in my desire to get and keep her affection. I think this has a lot to do with that INFJ trait.

3. Guarding the inner world - My world, who I was/am, what I loved, what got me excited in life did not and does not matter to my mother. It did not matter to the rest of my small family either. If I talked about these things, the reaction was either boredom or a dumbfounded look like "Um, WHY are you TELLING me this?". Anything precious to me would be ignored or devalued, and hence I learned to guard anything precious to me with extreme tenacity. Another INFJ trait I can trace back to growing up with a narcissistic family.

4. Perfectionism - In my family, it is all about appearances rather than realities. Meaning, what MATTERED to my family was the impression the rest of the world got. Who you really were didn't matter, it was who everyone else THOUGHT you were that did. Also, you could do 99 things perfectly but the only thing you heard about was the ONE thing you did imperfectly. You were also taught to behave like the perfect example so no open emotions were allowed (this included being openly very happy, it was seen as looking silly and foolish to others). Yet another INFJ trait that is also common with daughters of narcissistic mothers/grandmothers.

There are more things, but these are just the main few. I wondered how many of you INFJ ladies also grew up with similar circumstances and narcissistic mothers. It's just been really enlightening for me recently, I wondered how many female INFJs I might have this in common with.

Looking forward to your feedback if you've got it

 

[Tiltyred]

Yup. Way back when the psych grad student I was friends with first gave me the MBTI test, he also recommended I do some reading about having a narcissistic mother.

All I know is, the farther away I got from her, the more my life improved. Including limiting visits to every few years or so.

 

[cafe]

Sounds somewhat familiar. Except my mom was fairly good-natured about it most of the time. It was almost more like I was supposed to be Paris Hilton's little purse dog, if that makes sense.

 

[Immaculate Cloud]

Very interesting thread, Gloriana.

1. <The extreme empathy>. The questions seems to be - are the INFJ made or are they born? How much of that trait is, shall we say, "encouraged" by having had a narcissistic mother? Very hard to say. The fact is, you ARE empathetic. But I'd caution against using that empathy indiscriminately. Having had a NPD mother (you said in the clinical term, right?), I'd be sure that this empathy is not used as a lever for ill-intentioned people to bleed you dry.

2. <Me observing like crazy in order to keep and get her affection...> Hmm, I have seen an extroverted type (woman in her 30's) yell at her young daughter for nothing and I mean, peccadilloes... 'Ladies do not eat like this', 'You don't know how to spell this word?' and I mean, YELL till the poor girl quaked. I have observed this and interjected and you would not believe rationalizations she came up with in order to justify this sort of verbal violence. I can easily foresee the little girl become like you - HYPER-VIGILANT... Like Barbara Ehrenreich once said, 'we are hard-wired to be vigilant. Our distant ancestors did not just say, when they saw a movement in the tall grass, oh, it's nothing. In fact, those who survived were those who said, run, it's a leopard'. So, if everybody is hard-wired to be vigilant, then, your radar simply became very sensitive and very fine-tuned because of the treatment you got at home. Did that MAKE you into an INFJ? Are all kids born XXXX and then you morphed into an INFJ?

3. Guarding the inner world. Oh I can SOOO relate to that. Much of the pain of being an INFJ is that when we self-disclose, others either dismiss, belittle or start telling you to take a chill pill. Ehrenreich, whose MBTI type I do not know, remarked that when she came down with breast cancer, she was told "to be positive, to embrace her cancer" and she thinks that the extreme of positive thinking is that it breeds this moral callousness that is unwilling to listen to Cancer patients or downsized people even tell of their pain and suffering. It's like a wilful blindness and this refusal to hear of people's suffering. I'd add that society has become like that, so pervasive is 'positive thinking taken to the extreme'. No matter what type you are dealing with now, people are less willing to listen. Part of it might be due to the rat race or part of it is the long decades of conditioning into positive thinking.

4. Perfectionism - <Who you really were didn't matter, it was who everyone else THOUGHT you were that did. Also, you could do 99 things perfectly but the only thing you heard about was the ONE thing you did imperfectly> Oh, I can relate. To come back to that lady with the little girl, I made the mistake of rushing into that friendship too quickly, spent my time with them, cooked, gave my friendship. I confronted her about one or two lies too many and the convolutions that she did to put the blame on ME... sigh, big sigh... Told me that I needed to work on my anger and then shut the door, and then months later, wanted to resume it the 'friendship' and had her daughter write a cute little letter. In the meantime, I had tried to understand what was happening and why I was so confused. I had a gut feeling that I was dealing with a person who was used to having her way all the time. So, I did a search on narcissism and manipulations and NPD after that and I can say with some confidence now that yea, that lady had all the red flags: charming, knew how to manipulate, seduce other people into thinking that she was such a wonderful person. I went back to the very first meeting: the tear-jerking moment when she wiped a tear and mentioned her just deceased hubby... Since then, having read of many accounts of survivors of narcissistic abuse, I can safely say that this is a standard trick... The disclosure of very personal details at the VERY beginning to then TOTAL STRANGERS in order to elicit sympathy and lower the guard of other people. From then on, that person will use and use and exploit and co-opt everybody into their agenda and if you dare (as I did) point out that sorry, 'this was not part of the bargain and you lied to me', you are immediately cast out and maligned to all her tribe and all the people who of course believe this wonderfully charming person, etc. Again, it's all appearances, appearances and how easily you can pull it off. And of course, no criticism is ever accepted. If you dare criticise people who put great stock by appearances, it is YOU of course who is wrong, etc, etc.

To compound it all, INFJ suck at giving a wonderful appearance. We are far too serious-looking in general and cannot so easily FAKE cheeriness. At least, I can't. I prefer the truth at all times even if it is inconvenient. INFJ in general also suck at making friends and small talk so that many stories and gossip go behind our backs that we're not even aware of, until too late, and by then, the enemy has co-opted everybody to shun you.

Gloriana, I so feel for you. If indeed your mother is clinically a narcissist, then you will have to spend the rest of your life parenting yourself in such a way as to reverse that. Or look hard for really sincere people. You also will have to be careful that in your personal relationships, you don't fall for someone towards whom you will reproduce that pattern that you lived with your mom. In short, that you do not become the enabler of yet another narcissist. You'll also have to be cautious of not being too cautious either and then missing out on some potentially enriching friendships/relationships with people who perhaps show just a tenth of what your mom had. In short, not to make others pay for your mom...

Best wishes.

P.S. Is that your real name or did you pick it because you admire Queen Elizabeth the First?

 

[Words of Ivory]

I'm not female, but I can certainly identity with the narcissistic mother thing.

Is that okay? I'll add more thoughts to the subject later if you don't mind me doing so.

 

[Gloriana]

I'm not female, but I can certainly identity with the narcissistic mother thing.

Is that okay? I'll add more thoughts to the subject later if you don't mind me doing so.

Oh definitely, definitely! Please do. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm interested in the Narcissistic Mother - INFJ correlation unto itself, gender really doesn't even matter.

 

[Gloriana]

@Immaculate -

I'm familiar with a lot of stuff you mentioned in your post. I've already fallen into and learned how to avoid a lot of the pitfalls you mentioned. I wound up married to a grade-A narcissist and it ended badly, but in truth it has been the catalyst for quite a lot of self improvement and positive change so I can't complain. I've scrubbed my life of a lot of toxic narcissists and have formed a lot of new friendships with positive, supportive people.

Still have lots of hurdles to overcome but I feel very positive. Thanks for your feedback and sharing with me

 

[Phantonym]

Can't really relate to having a terribly narcissistic mother. Mine was more the overly self-sacrificing kind of mother.

But I can strongly relate to these points:

3. Guarding the inner world - My world, who I was/am, what I loved, what got me excited in life did not and does not matter to my mother. It did not matter to the rest of my small family either. If I talked about these things, the reaction was either boredom or a dumbfounded look like "Um, WHY are you TELLING me this?". Anything precious to me would be ignored or devalued, and hence I learned to guard anything precious to me with extreme tenacity. Another INFJ trait I can trace back to growing up with a narcissistic family.

4. Perfectionism - In my family, it is all about appearances rather than realities. Meaning, what MATTERED to my family was the impression the rest of the world got. Who you really were didn't matter, it was who everyone else THOUGHT you were that did. Also, you could do 99 things perfectly but the only thing you heard about was the ONE thing you did imperfectly. You were also taught to behave like the perfect example so no open emotions were allowed (this included being openly very happy, it was seen as looking silly and foolish to others). Yet another INFJ trait that is also common with daughters of narcissistic mothers/grandmothers.

 

[kyli_ryan]

Can't really relate to having a terribly narcissistic mother. Mine was more the overly self-sacrificing kind of mother.

Yes. I think this would be a good characterization for my mother as well. Although, I think that her guilt at being a divorced single parent and raising me by herself had a lot to do with that.

I think that it's interesting, the connection between your mother's treatment of you and the way that your personality developed. Although my mother wasn't narcissistic, I can relate to the idea that I needed to be intuitive and understand adult situations early on, and developed that quality because I was treated as an equal partner in the household (with my mother) from a very young age.

What other ways would you all say that your parent's interactions with you from early on had an effect on your identifying with your personality type?

 

[ReadingRainbows]

I wouldnt say my mom is narcissistic per say, but both her and my dad are different types of batshit. Both My mother and my sister are very focused on their partners to the point of screwing over other people for the sake of being in a relationship. Total unhealthy devotion. My father however DOES have narcissitic traits while being totally ands utterly batshit and violent.

 

[mochajava]

Hi Gloriana,

I can definitely relate to this, especially after I read a book by a psychotherapist about narcissistic mothers and some ideas for moving past it (I can find this link for you if you'd like).

I, too, wonder how much of me is a product of my narcissistic mother (who, oddly, might be an INFJ) and abusive father whom she enabled. Who knows? Some of the things are parallel, as you've implied in your post.

1. Yes, completely. Others' needs are always above mine - though I'm trying to force this to change.

2. Yes.

3. Exactly. Whenever I meet people who get very show-and-tell with me quickly, I think, "how odd, they must have had parents who were interested in what they had to say". Yes - how can ignoring a child possibly send a clearer message to them, in their developmental years, that they do not matter?

4. Yes - perfectionism/appearances. I was so, so broken down and depressed for much of my pre-teen/teen years. No action taken, no acknowledgement. The threat of my 12-year-old self making a few Bs? Pull out the big guns, resources, etc. I always associated this with my race/culture... no idea if it's the narcissism, culture, just personality of my family, but taht's life: you can never tease apart causes.

So - in other words, YES TO ALL OF THE ABOVE!

Now I want to know from you - what do you DO now? How do you think of your past?

@Gloriana - how have things improved? How have you recognized and left the narcissists? (I'm leaving the overly-demanding / takers / always need help types)

@Immaculate Cloud - Loved your post!

 

[Gloriana]

@Mocha: I'm currently reading two books on narcissistic mothers, I bet one is the one you're talking about. First there is "Will I ever be good enough? Healing the daughters of narcissistic mothers" by Karyl McBride and the other is "The drama of the gifted child - The search for the true self" by Alice Miller. Both are really wonderful so far.

I'm actually having to live with my mother at the moment until I find work and save enough to get out on my own again. Me, personally, I have confronted my mother with A LOT of things over the past 5-6 years. She doesn't seem to understand or care to understand much of it, but it has helped me. I've gotten better at not letting her gaslight me and not letting her rewrite history. If she comes at me with some story about how 'controlling' and 'manipulative' I was as a child, I just calmly tell her "No, I was a six year old, not happening". Stuff like that.

I've come to understand so much about her, her own history of being abused, and I've gained a new perspective on her behavior toward me. I can still get really upset from time to time with the way she behaves and I still have a bunch of anger stuff to deal with, but dealing with her has gotten much easier to bear. She will never change, but I've changed how I let her actions/words affect me. Right now, my main focus is coping with and changing all the negative, destructive effects my upbringing has had on me, stuff I didn't even recognize until recently.

I don't tell her much about my plans, where I go, and who I see these days. I don't tell her anything about my plans to move and where I intend to go. I am not sure if I will go no-contact with her one day but I definitely look forward to going low-contact with her in the future. Like someone else mentioned on this thread, I too do so much better with everything in my life without her presence.

When it comes to the other narcissists in my life, it's partly been just 'breaking up' with a couple of them and with others, I clearly drew my boundaries and raised the bar in terms of what kind of treatment I expected. They were not happy about that, and so they left themselves (including my narcissistic ex-husband) and blamed/vilified me (as of course they would).

I'm still learning how to choose better companions. That's where I'm at right now. In the midst of a lot of changes. I am learning what real love is all about and what healthy relationships ACTUALLY look like. It's like learning a foreign language. I've been working on myself a lot too, how my perceptions are skewed and some screwed up belief systems. I'm trying to play catch-up in a lot of ways and I'm learning how to get on my own two feet for the first time.

It's really scary and intimidating, and it's also emotional because it really is like leaving behind the only way of life I've ever known. It's the right choice, no doubt, but it's still really heart wrenching at times. Change (if it's worth it) always is though!

It's amazing how much us daughters of narcissistic mothers have in common, isn't it? In the research I've been doing, I've been amazed at how similar the experiences are. It's been unbelievably comforting finding others who have been through the same things.

 

[mochajava]

@Gloriana : You hit the nail on the head! I was thinking of "Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers".

I love Alice Miller... I started reading "For Your Own Good", but it was just so saddening.

It is really striking to me that part of your healing process has to do with confronting and dealing with her. I just pulled an "INFJ doorslam" on my parents, so it's hard to imagine talking to them -- but for you, talking to your mother, even without her changing is helpful.

INFJ tendency, perhaps? I tend to fall apart during arguments and easily start believing what the other person is saying, even if it's utter crap like, "do you even know how much we slaved away for you?" (Yes parents, it's called PARENTING).

It's also very informative to me that your ex-husband and other NPDs blamed/vilified you. My parents did the same thing after I cut them off -- they told ALL our relatives what victims they were, refusing to see their role (and they had just created such an awful, dramatic scene at my wedding

"I'm still learning how to choose better companions. That's where I'm at right now. In the midst of a lot of changes. I am learning what real love is all about and what healthy relationships ACTUALLY look like. It's like learning a foreign language. I've been working on myself a lot too, how my perceptions are skewed and some screwed up belief systems. I'm trying to play catch-up in a lot of ways and I'm learning how to get on my own two feet for the first time." AMEN TO THIS!!! Keep me posted on this process; I'd like to figure this one out as well. I'm not "good at making friends" perhaps because I'm not really sure what that looks like? Can you keep me posted -- I think that comparing notes as we go along for this one will be helpful.

I married into a VERY healthy family, and it's striking the way that everyone is able to express their emotions freely, without fear of recourse. Even as a daughter-in-law, I can too. And it's astonishing. I'm realizing that I'm entitled to be treated with respect, to be in an environment where I feel supported, to believe in myself, and to make mistakes without fear of being lacerated.

"It's amazing how much us daughters of narcissistic mothers have in common, isn't it? In the research I've been doing, I've been amazed at how similar the experiences are. It's been unbelievably comforting finding others who have been through the same things." SO, SO TRUE.

 

[mochajava]

Why does this thread have a blue question mark next to it? Did we do something bad?

 

[Immaculate Cloud]

@Gloriana,

how about opening up the thread, calling it instead Survivors of narcissistic parents/relatives/friends? Just a thought...

 

[Salomé]

I started thinking about how growing up with the mother that I did contributed to my development in terms of my INFJ personality type. I've seen some really interesting correlations.

Interesting thread. Opening it up might be a good idea - I think you are at risk of confirmation bias here.
The way you reacted to your narcissistic mother may be typical of an INFJ, but that doesn't mean it caused you to become one. Different types respond differently to the same stimulus. For example, I can identify several of the points you have made as being present in my childhood, but my reaction was not to become more sympathetic, but to withdraw, analyze and criticize, i.e. typically INTP. My ENF siblings reacted completely differently. In my view you cannot create a personality type, you can only exaggerate innate differences.

 

[Immaculate Cloud]

@Mochajava

thanks. Your name rocks - a double caffeine dose?

That book title "For Your Own Good" - argh, it sounds so much like what I hear bitchy mommas tell their kids - I sometimes wonder if they can hear the violence in their own voice when they say those words... Imagine how confused a kid must be on hearing that the over-the-top beating that s/he got was 'for his/her own good' and then immediately after, get a big hug only for the roller-coaster of verbal violence-hugging-bitching start all over again... If that does not fuck up a kid's brain, I don't know what will. I guess that's where a calming influence - an extended family maybe - sometimes helps balance things out (distribute the parenting role to the gramps a bit). Or sometimes, I have seen the kid then act out with strangers and get clingy for the attention that s/he does not get at home...

 

[Ginkgo]

Interesting thread. Opening it up might be a good idea - I think you are at risk of confirmation bias here.
The way you reacted to your narcissistic mother may be typical of an INFJ, but that doesn't mean it caused you to become one. Different types respond differently to the same stimulus. For example, I can identify several of the points you have made as being present in my childhood, but my reaction was not to become more sympathetic, but to withdraw, analyze and criticize, i.e. typically INTP. My ENF siblings reacted completely differently. In my view you cannot create a personality type, you can only exaggerate innate differences.

My thoughts exactly. Except for the ENF siblings part. I'm an only child.

 

[Gloriana]

@Mocha - I relate to so much of what you said! I wish I had time for a detailed response right now but will hopefully get time later.

@Immaculate - How do I 'open' a thread?

 

[mochajava]

@Immaculate Cloud - I had/have a batshit crazy family, but I'm not a survivor per se - survivors overcame something HUGE and uncontrollable. War. Cancer. Those people deserve to be celebrated... me? I think it's more like, "yay, I'm here! Now what do I do? Let's talk" it's not a positive or a negative... I didn't really do anything... how about "Those who've dealt with narcissistic parents/relatives/friends?

And yes, a double-caffeine dose is me! How's life High up in the sky? Your comment about "For Your Own Good" is extremely on - I think that describes me, wrt my family, pretty well

That book title "For Your Own Good" - argh, it sounds so much like what I hear bitchy mommas tell their kids - I sometimes wonder if they can hear the violence in their own voice when they say those words... Imagine how confused a kid must be on hearing that the over-the-top beating that s/he got was 'for his/her own good' and then immediately after, get a big hug only for the roller-coaster of verbal violence-hugging-bitching start all over again... If that does not fuck up a kid's brain, I don't know what will. I guess that's where a calming influence - an extended family maybe - sometimes helps balance things out (distribute the parenting role to the gramps a bit). Or sometimes, I have seen the kid then act out with strangers and get clingy for the attention that s/he does not get at home...

@Gloriana - no worries on time. Take your time; I will look forward to your response whenever you get the chance

@Morgan Le Fay - Thanks for that. I was worried I got turned into an INFJ by my highly dysfunctional family. INFJs aren't the most adapted-to-society types, you know...