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Thread: Common ENFP issues

  1. #81
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hmm, my dear ENFP's who I love, here's a question ... how come when I give you the "look" - that look that says "rein in the Ne ... you are out of control, people aren't following you, people are thinking you've crossed the line" you never pay attention, even though you see me...

    ?

    Because then they wouldn't be ENFP. It is, in part, this obliviousness, combined with an enthusiasm for esoteric subject matter, that makes them charming to INTJs. If the "look" worked, they'd run in sheer horror from INTJs. Instead, they're oblivious to "the look" and say, "Look at this! Aren't Klein bottles soo cool?!" And since, yes, the INTJ does think a Klein bottle is pretty darn cool, and NO ONE actually talks about Klein bottles in normal conversation ... suddenly ENFP and INTJ have a "normal conversation" about Klein bottles.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I expect most of you already know the reason why Fe users react so badly to inaction and perceive it to be intentionally putting a spoke in the wheels. Just in case though - I think it bears repeating that

    1) Not doing something is not ever neutral and more likely than not it will be perceived negatively. Not asking about someone is interpreted as disinterest. Not communicating regularly is interpreted as either a problem between you or dislike. Not stating something positive usually means that they are assuming you are too polite or reticent to state the negative that you do feel. Not showing up somewhere is perceived as not considering it important.

    2) Because group dynamics are central to them, they assume that you see the same things that they do and have decided that it doesn't matter to you. Therefore they react as if you have already done something wrong, rather than making a request.

    3) They'd prefer something to be spontaneous rather than out of duty. You know how you hate people asking "How are you" as a polite convention? Well, asking feels like they are forcing a person to do something that they've already tacitly stated that they don't wish to do.

    4) Making things work for the other person is usually the Fe way of showing that they love someone. Therefore if they perceive that you are not on board with trying to make something work that they are trying to do (and which you are not directly opposed to), they feel unloved or that you are being selfish and react badly. This in turn provokes a bad reaction from you because the request was never made and you feel that they are misunderstanding who you are at your core and not accepting you (or only accepting you under certain conditions).

    Can any of you give some examples of situations where Fe users have driven you nuts this way and made you want to dig in your heels completely? Give an example of how the conversation could have gone instead (and at what point the request should be made), if you would be willing!
    The examples are simple: any case where you take any rule above and insist that someone follow it, or be outcast from your social circle.

    While it is typical to characterize Fi as "selfish", it should be understood that Fe can be just as selfish, but expressed in a completely different way (all the while trying not to sound too selfish). In particular, (2) and (4) can be expressed very selfishly. (2) implies that the world revolves around you, that it should matter to other people what you feel and what things mean to you, and if people don't comply with that worldview, it isn't a problem with you, but with all those inconsiderate people who aren't doing anything for you. (4) implies that people should automatically be doing acts of service for others. Not only is this necessarily against the nature of some people who are just as loving as those for whom this is a love language, it again has the built-in assumption that other people should be doing things for you, and if they don't, the problem is with them, and not you. It is a very Fe thing to say, "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?!"

    This is not to say that there is anything wrong with reciprocating acts of service, with intuitively reading others' feelings and attitudes and doing something to help them out. These are good things, but expecting it is immature, while outright requiring it is evil (by imposing on others, demanding that they comply with your wants and needs).

    Also, I should make a point that ought to resonate with the INFJs here. We Ni-doms know what it is like to be misunderstood, that people really don't understand what we mean, that they don't understand or see the things we understand and see. In spite of that, I've had plenty of people, including plenty of INFJs, "read" me, make assumptions, and do things for me that I either don't give a damn about or even annoy me, thus proving that they don't understand me. (In later years I've come to recognize this as their version of kindness, and I receive it far more outwardly appreciatively in spite of being annoyed by it.)

    Assuming that people who cannot read one's mind and do for one exactly what one wants, when one wants it are morally lacking is the Fe hubris. Yes, I know, Fe feels like it make reasonable concessions, that it doesn't expect mind reading, and so on, but when push comes to shove (and this is real life experience talking), Fe will insist that whatever social cue was plainly obvious and that not acting on it is a moral deficiency -- that lack of awareness is not an excuse, that one should (morally!) be more socially aware.

    I can understand how one might grow up assuming that this sort of automatic reading of social cues is normal, but the next step is understanding that different people express love in different ways. Look for their other ways of expressing love, and they won't seem quite so rude, uncaring, unloving or unrefined anymore.

  2. #82
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I will never burn out on another Fi-user, actually, because there's a natural eb and flow in there, I find and I have a natural endurance for intensity. ...What burns me out is constantly looking for social clues and feeling paranoid that I've missed some when I'm talking to Fe-users.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    If it's the look I think it is, it's is the equivalent of and that will get you an instant and very strong

    If you EVER wanna make me rebel against EVERYTHING you say, plz tell me what to do. I dare you. Look down on me, shake your head disapprovingly and tell me I'm not being 'proper'. I promise you, the reaction will be worth it. I'm just not sure you'll be able to handle it. I experience this as extremely judgemental and manipulative (aka guilttripping).

    It's much more effective to point out that, though you may in fact enjoy it or not mind it, some people are perhaps not so comfortable with so much exuberance, and walk away. Let me assess the situation myself after you've drawn my attention to it and trust I'll do the right thing.
    +1000

    Take for example when I got so stressed out in the INFJ Common Issues thread. I think that what happened on my end was that I felt like a couple of the INFJs over there were doing just this. Ohhhhhhhh! Man that gets me into "my oppositional place."

    Now I'm (hopefully) a mature adult and won't mule like my dog when I ask him to get in his crate. But I have to force myself to remember that muling isn't going to get me anywhere.

    I can't rely on my Fi to tell me what to do.... because it's going to tell me to ... so I have to rely on my Te.

    Thus, I think you saw a lot of Esoteric Wench's Te in the INFJ Common Issues thread. More than you usually would.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #83

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    Klrein bottles are sooooooo cooool!! (No really. They are really cool! They are the ultimate enfp trap. We keep looking around the corner trying to find out what comes next... "ooooo, what's around this turn...." )

    esoteric-

    (Being a post whore on this thread as I am going out of town for a week, so sorry for all the replies at once!!! )

    I am a slacker some days at work and hop in and off the forum. I'd fire me if I was my boss. Total Te FAIL! But then I do crazy Ne spurts of work at 3 am and I end up being able to fix really weird, convoluted problems at work. I also seem to have a knack for sounding the enfp fire alarm on the right issues to the right people, so they keep me around as stuff gets fixed. Reactive, yet productive. I am working hard to learn how to temper the reactivity by modeling the older enfps I work with.

    Baby ESTJs-

    An ENFP: NeFi TeSi
    An ESTJ: TeSi NeFi

    When we really start using Te strongly, we extrovert it-and make all the same mistakes a very young ESTJ does. We are using it in the service of Fi-thus we end up being the middle management of Fi and being rather bossy yet caring. If we see a "problem" with Fi, then we act loudly with Te. Read EJCC's ESTJ blog-see if some of the trends sound familiar-especially in regards to how we make logical decsisions in group settings. (Thanks EJCC, you have taught me tons!)

    To carry it further:

    INFP: FiNe SiTe
    ISTJ: SiTe FiNe

    if the analogy carries over you would expect the INFPs to be the "ISTJ accountants" of Fi. They keep track of Fi details, have a very high amount of resolution in those details, and after a lot of thought, will give advice about exactly how to implement an Fi rule in a particular situation. It is strikingly similar to how my ISTJs advise with respect to Quality Assurance guidelines where I work.

    I think-an idea still being developed-that we use that judging/perceiving functions in pairs. We naturally develop the ability to use the dom-aux together and the tert-inf together. Growth-the painful hard variety-involves learning to use the aux-inf together for an extrovert but maybe the same for an intorvert???? I dunno...

  4. #84
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Because then they wouldn't be ENFP. It is, in part, this obliviousness, combined with an enthusiasm for esoteric subject matter, that makes them charming to INTJs. If the "look" worked, they'd run in sheer horror from INTJs. Instead, they're oblivious to "the look" and say, "Look at this! Aren't Klein bottles soo cool?!" And since, yes, the INTJ does think a Klein bottle is pretty darn cool, and NO ONE actually talks about Klein bottles in normal conversation ... suddenly ENFP and INTJ have a "normal conversation" about Klein bottles.




    The examples are simple: any case where you take any rule above and insist that someone follow it, or be outcast from your social circle.

    While it is typical to characterize Fi as "selfish", it should be understood that Fe can be just as selfish, but expressed in a completely different way (all the while trying not to sound too selfish). In particular, (2) and (4) can be expressed very selfishly. (2) implies that the world revolves around you, that it should matter to other people what you feel and what things mean to you, and if people don't comply with that worldview, it isn't a problem with you, but with all those inconsiderate people who aren't doing anything for you. (4) implies that people should automatically be doing acts of service for others. Not only is this necessarily against the nature of some people who are just as loving as those for whom this is a love language, it again has the built-in assumption that other people should be doing things for you, and if they don't, the problem is with them, and not you. It is a very Fe thing to say, "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?!"

    This is not to say that there is anything wrong with reciprocating acts of service, with intuitively reading others' feelings and attitudes and doing something to help them out. These are good things, but expecting it is immature, while outright requiring it is evil (by imposing on others, demanding that they comply with your wants and needs).

    Also, I should make a point that ought to resonate with the INFJs here. We Ni-doms know what it is like to be misunderstood, that people really don't understand what we mean, that they don't understand or see the things we understand and see. In spite of that, I've had plenty of people, including plenty of INFJs, "read" me, make assumptions, and do things for me that I either don't give a damn about or even annoy me, thus proving that they don't understand me. (In later years I've come to recognize this as their version of kindness, and I receive it far more outwardly appreciatively in spite of being annoyed by it.)

    Assuming that people who cannot read one's mind and do for one exactly what one wants, when one wants it are morally lacking is the Fe hubris. Yes, I know, Fe feels like it make reasonable concessions, that it doesn't expect mind reading, and so on, but when push comes to shove (and this is real life experience talking), Fe will insist that whatever social cue was plainly obvious and that not acting on it is a moral deficiency -- that lack of awareness is not an excuse, that one should (morally!) be more socially aware.

    I can understand how one might grow up assuming that this sort of automatic reading of social cues is normal, but the next step is understanding that different people express love in different ways. Look for their other ways of expressing love, and they won't seem quite so rude, uncaring, unloving or unrefined anymore.
    uumlau, are you single? 'Cause if you are, I may want to marry you. Wow! An INTJ who is so thoughtful, logical (which is to be expected) AND who is aware of people's motivations and how their feelings play out.....

    Move over heterosexual male INFJs. uumlau is my dream guy.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #85
    almost half a doctor Array phoenix13's Avatar
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    Damn Satine!!! You got it! *high five*

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

  6. #86
    You have a choice! Array 21%'s Avatar
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    I only know one ENFP and I think she is awesome -- one of the most fascinating people I know. She is pure chaos, and within that she is a blend of wonderful childlike innocence and total abrasiveness

    However, one thing I've noticed is that she has amazing social skills. She picks up on so-called "Fe cues" very well and most of the time comes off as sensitive and respectful (except, of course, when she is drunk or on Ne-high). Her "Fe" seems to come from a very true place -- in that she knows how certain things matter to some people and tries to do it because she cares about how they feel.

    "Proper social behaviors" doesn't equal Fe. With a little practice, anyone can pull off "proper social behaviors", regardless of whether you use Fe or Fi. I said practice, because that's just what it is -- just something you follow like traffic laws. It's surface stuff. The only thing that matters is that whatever you do comes from a genuine place that cares.

    I agree a lot with Fidelia's post. She isn't trying to argue that people should do things the Fe way. She is just trying to point out how Fe normally interprets things, and how it might give rise to misunderstandings. I'll try to give a concrete scenario to illustrate this:

    Fe: I had a horrible day and X was so mean to me.
    Fi: (empathizes with Fe's feeling) X was so mean to me the other day too!
    Fe: (feels obliged to ask about Fi's experience because if you are saying that, you must be in need of some venting) What happened?
    Fi: (answering question) *starts talking about what X did*
    Fe: (validating Fi's experience) Oh, that's very selfish of X!
    (*** now if Fe wants to vent, it will try to steer the conversation back to what X did today, but if it judges what X did to Fi was more severe and Fi is clearly upset by it, Fe will feel obliged NOT to talk about their own problem, but try to solve Fi's problem, and if the opportunity to talk about Fe's experience never arises, Fe will eventually feel neglected)

    To interrupt someone and say "Hey, I need to talk about my problem now" is unthinkable for Fe, because it sounds very selfish. Fe expects you to pick up that it is upset and then *ask* about it, which is a cue that means "You're not interrupting my time and it's okay to discuss your problem now".

    Of course, in real life, things are a lot more complicated and way subtler than this.

    Guilttripping or whining without having made a direct request is not healthy Fe, but Fe users are more prone to this because they were waiting for you to pick up cues that they were unhappy and show them some attention. It's a strange concept for them to have to *demand* attention. So when Fe does that, most of the time it's already very unhappy and just cannot hold it in anymore, resulting in negative and disastrous encounters.

    One real life example (with my INFP, but it's more Ne-based so I think it would be relevant to this thread ): I came over while he was wrapped up in something online, and he said hi and to give him five minutes. I sat myself down and waited, and waited, and waited and waited for forty minutes and he didn't even once acknowledge my presence, until I said I was leaving. I was a bit upset at that point. The thing is, he was so caught up in this crazy info he found online and was overwhelmed by the newness of it and it didn't leave room for any other thought. He was actually amused by the situation and asked why I didn't just say anything to get his attention. My take on it was he told me to give him time and he was clearly very into it at the moment, so I felt it was intrusive and selfish to demand attention from him then. [After that the situation resolved rather happily, though ]

    I've learned it's all right to actually say what I need, which is something Fe is taught NOT to do. I've also noticed that a lot of Ne people (NTPs too) get lost in these Wow-this-is-so-amazing-I-can't-think-of-anything-else episodes from time to time where you have to shake them and say "Look at me!" before they notice you.

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    21% expressed exactly what I meant. My post wasn't to argue that it was the right way, but to say that that's why Fe users seem to start out prickly and make assumptions already and then it goes downhill for both parties.

    I think part of it is that trying to adjust for other people is seen as a deposit into their emotional bank account. That investment can be withdrawn at some point later if the Fe user doesn't have the resources to do what they would normally do. Not trying to adjust is seen as a withdrawal. The Fe user sometimes feels like they have been making a lot of deposits, while the Fi user is taking out a lot of withdrawals. My guess is that while Fe kind of has a regular, automatic savings plan of little bits each month, Fi will now and then win the lottery and then deposit tons (although the Fe user doesn't know that they are planning to). The Fi user knows they are going to be generous when they do have resources and so they feel misjudged and poorly characterized when they don't make any deposits when the Fe person thinks they should and decide they won't even try to borrow the money to make a deposit, even though they might have otherwise. I may be totally mistaken though.

    In the kind of conversation that 21% used as an example, how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about?

  8. #88
    Intentionally Clementine Array Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    21% expressed exactly what I meant. My post wasn't to argue that it was the right way, but to say that that's why Fe users seem to start out prickly and make assumptions already and then it goes downhill for both parties.

    In the kind of conversation that 21% used as an example, how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about?
    fidelia ~ I was struggling to log in so I could respond to 21%...(and mention something about you) and I kept getting 'log in' failed or something...and it was getting close to my last try!!

    When I finally got here...you had magically appeared (you probably didn't have any trouble logging in right). I love it! And now I forgot what I was going to say.

    Well...at least I can say that 21% is so right to remind me/us that Fe isn't merely about 'polite social behavior'. And honestly, I should keep my big mouth shut because I myself...don't know enough about any of the functions, including my own, to speak about them.

    I do find it interesting though that my 'camp' sorta experiences it that way. That it somehow puts a pressure on me and perhaps others like me that feels restricting and causes me to rebel against it on some level. But then it is the rebellion, no matter how blatant or sly, that makes me feel seperated and misunderstood.

    I also think it is human nature to first defend themselves and then listen. Or maybe that is just me - ha! I do know that if am to learn a new way...I often need to 'close-up shop' on the old way...which requires a bit of complaining. Okay...maybe a lot of whining.

    The person that is brave enough to come in to help me see that new way...? The person that is willing to put up with the 'defending myself'...?Well - I hold them in the highest regard.

    It takes an amazingly strong and honorable individual to put themselves out there...and go through the initial conflict...and listen and wait and work...

    It makes me think of all the INFJs that came before...MLK, Ghandi...Bert from Ernie & Bert (okay not Bert)

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    It helps me to hear the objections and understand the thought process better. I think what's being said is that the more someone wants something to happen a certain way, the less the ENFP is able to do it (even if they want to) because it arouses oppositional forces within them. And that sense of rebellion makes them feel cut off and separated from the other person. Is that right? So, in the case of a teacher that's asking someone to do something, how would they best avoid calling up those feelings of counterwill?

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Because Fi is very individually driven, does your Fi ever clash with others?

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