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  1. #71
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I expect most of you already know the reason why Fe users react so badly to inaction and perceive it to be intentionally putting a spoke in the wheels. Just in case though - I think it bears repeating that

    1) Not doing something is not ever neutral and more likely than not it will be perceived negatively. Not asking about someone is interpreted as disinterest. Not communicating regularly is interpreted as either a problem between you or dislike. Not stating something positive usually means that they are assuming you are too polite or reticent to state the negative that you do feel. Not showing up somewhere is perceived as not considering it important.

    2) Because group dynamics are central to them, they assume that you see the same things that they do and have decided that it doesn't matter to you. Therefore they react as if you have already done something wrong, rather than making a request.

    3) They'd prefer something to be spontaneous rather than out of duty. You know how you hate people asking "How are you" as a polite convention? Well, asking feels like they are forcing a person to do something that they've already tacitly stated that they don't wish to do.

    4) Making things work for the other person is usually the Fe way of showing that they love someone. Therefore if they perceive that you are not on board with trying to make something work that they are trying to do (and which you are not directly opposed to), they feel unloved or that you are being selfish and react badly. This in turn provokes a bad reaction from you because the request was never made and you feel that they are misunderstanding who you are at your core and not accepting you (or only accepting you under certain conditions).

    Can any of you give some examples of situations where Fe users have driven you nuts this way and made you want to dig in your heels completely? Give an example of how the conversation could have gone instead (and at what point the request should be made), if you would be willing!
    Well, obviously I'm not an *E*NFP, but I'll wade into this one.

    Let me preface my comments by saying that, from what I've seen from a number of EFJ's, I respect Fe and and impressed by the things it does well. My "understanding" of what Fe is comes from Lenore Thomson and "[Fe] addresses how interactions within a society are best performed" or however she puts that. Okay, with that preface, let the bloodletting begin

    Why does Fe seem to consider itself the social uberfunction, and the default norm/expectation of social interaction? As stated above, it can often be very effective socially, but why does that grant it norm/expectation status, and apparently such a dim view of other functions and their social style?

    I would like to point out that no group that I've ever been a part of has been Fe dom, and a number of groups that I've been a part of/around [military, taoism, tantrik yoga, maybe zen buddhism?, maybe some martial arts?] actively look down on a number of aspects about Fe and its social mores.
    Ok, so on to Fidelia's points

    1) A lot of me finds this completely naive, stupid, and self-centered. There are 6 billion+ people in this world. Lots of people suffer intense agony or pain every day, and how many people die every day? What on earth makes you think people should take time out of their busy lives to, more or less, socially kiss your butt, especially if these people don't even know you? Of the 6 billion+ people in this world, most of them don't give one whit about you, your feelings, insecurities, joys, tribulations, etc. Most people is the US, and I presume elsewhere as well, are quite busy and may not even have time to catch up with their friends, why should they spend time chit chatting with people they don't even know or only have ?little? relationships with, for example coworkers? It's my understanding that in the military, and elsewhere, it is often considered rude to ask people about their problems, or to probe them further, unless they specifically ask you to do so. I've had plenty of friends who when I ask them questions about personal stuff, even if they've mentioned it before, tell me to "mind my own business" and that "they don't want to talk about it." Fe is not the function default, or even the social default of all groups. I've seen Fe-like attitudes extremely mocked by some groups, and seen as very wimpy by others. Whether we agree with such attitudes or not, clearly Fe is not everyone's social default.

    Most people are busy/enmeshed enough with their own problems, that unless your a close friend, they probably aren't interested in hearing about your problems. Does Fe expect the world to stop spinning and other people to put their own lives on hold so that they can try to help comfort your problems?


    2) In the military and elsewhere there is a lot of "do this, because you were told to", and it doesn't matter what you think about it, or whatever the group dynamics may or may not be. Some people are oblivious to group dynamics, others don't care, others realize that "they aren't high enough on the totem pole to be able to change anything."

    4) Come on, people are more complex than just "I will help you out" vs "I don't care one iota." Further, not all help is wanted. People are busy, there isn't time to do everything, not everything to be done requires a group effort to get there.

    Whether it is a fair assessment of Fe or not, it feels to me like the groups I've mentioned above basically see Fe as "polite social butt-kissing" and perhaps frequently insincere about it to. These groups consider themselves much more "honest" and "truthful", and see Fe as somewhere between well-intentioned farce, disingenuous, and outright lying. Also, I think there is a tendency to see Fe expression as people "whining and expecting social support/approval/validation for being insecure/wimpy/pathetic etc." As in "I can't take care of myself or solve my own problems, so I'm going to interrupt or force myself upon you to help me out. Now validate my feelings!!!"

    For example:
    Fe: I've had SUCH a bad today!
    military: "shut up and run 5 miles, just like everybody else here!"
    martial arts: "shut up and train, just like everybody else here!"
    zen buddhism: "shut up and go meditate"
    taoism: "the world is red dust and the social world is insecure and farce, your emotional worry is scattering your mind. relax your mind and settle your chi"
    tantric yoga: "the world is illusory and filled with suffering. Social interactions will not take you to liberation, but will only further tangle you in this world of suffering. Still your wandering mind and focus on the Absolute."

    See how none of those examples involve any sort of emotional validation? Admittedly, those are all warrior and/or monkish cultures though.

    So clearly not all social groups are Fe-based, or even F-based. I think the harshest attitudes I've seen towards Fe have come not from Fi, but from Ti and Te.

    Oh, on a more tangential note, in Brent Massey's Where Do I Belong?, a book about applying MBTI to national cultures [a non-rigorous book based upon emailing people who live in the country under question what MBTI they thought there national culture was, and why], there are LOTS of ENFP countries, a handful of ENFJ countries, *2* INFP countries, and !zero! INFJ countries. As some INFJ put it "a country couldnt function if its national culture was INFJ." I'm not sure what that really means, or how much meaning to give it, but I still thought it was an interesting note and wanted to mention it.


    Ok, I don't know if this necessarily answered any of Fidelia's questions, but at least I hope it described some mindsets/attitudes that directly contradict Fe's operating assumptions.

  2. #72
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I expect most of you already know the reason why Fe users react so badly to inaction and perceive it to be intentionally putting a spoke in the wheels. Just in case though - I think it bears repeating that

    1) Not doing something is not ever neutral and more likely than not it will be perceived negatively. Not asking about someone is interpreted as disinterest. Not communicating regularly is interpreted as either a problem between you or dislike. Not stating something positive usually means that they are assuming you are too polite or reticent to state the negative that you do feel. Not showing up somewhere is perceived as not considering it important.

    2) Because group dynamics are central to them, they assume that you see the same things that they do and have decided that it doesn't matter to you. Therefore they react as if you have already done something wrong, rather than making a request.

    3) They'd prefer something to be spontaneous rather than out of duty. You know how you hate people asking "How are you" as a polite convention? Well, asking feels like they are forcing a person to do something that they've already tacitly stated that they don't wish to do.

    4) Making things work for the other person is usually the Fe way of showing that they love someone. Therefore if they perceive that you are not on board with trying to make something work that they are trying to do (and which you are not directly opposed to), they feel unloved or that you are being selfish and react badly. This in turn provokes a bad reaction from you because the request was never made and you feel that they are misunderstanding who you are at your core and not accepting you (or only accepting you under certain conditions).

    Can any of you give some examples of situations where Fe users have driven you nuts this way and made you want to dig in your heels completely? Give an example of how the conversation could have gone instead (and at what point the request should be made), if you would be willing!
    Fidelia, I'm going to think about your question for bit, but before I do I just wanted to say that this post only goes to show me that I'm still groping about trying to understand Fe.

    This absolutely amazes me because I consider myself a sophisticated interpreter of MBTI. But I've come to understand that even though I may have a good handle on several aspect of the theory, I had NOOOOO real appreciation of the differences between Fe and Fi until the INFJ Common Issues thread. Before this eye-opening conversation, I would have said that Fe and Fi were both subtle variants of the same function.

    What I learned from the other thread, and is reinforced by your post above, is that in many ways Fe and Fi are two completely separate functions. What they have in common is that they both deal with the same purview (i.e. Feeling) but how they judge things within that purview is radically different.

    My gut tells me that most of Fi users don't know the reason why Fe users react so badly to inaction and perceive it to be intentionally putting a spoke in the wheels.

    Even with all the earnest effort I've put into getting my head around Fe over the past few days, I was still surprised and shocked by what you wrote here. It seems antithetical to the Fi experience... or at least to my Fi experience.

    My first reaction when I read your post was, "Well, that sounds like one is assumed guilty until he proves himself innocent. That doesn't seem very fair does it?" I only bring this up because I think there is something that Fi and Fe find vaguely distasteful about each other... perhaps because they have somewhat conflicting values.

    Earlier tonight, I was talking to two dear INFP friends (Fi users)... one of whom is married to an INFJ (Fe user). I was telling them about the INFJ Common Issues thread and what I had learned about Fe versus Fi. They were floored. (And both of them know a fair amount about MBTI.) One of them literally said, "But I don't get it. I would immediately share my own experience to make the other person feel like they weren't alone."

    ^^^
    Not only did my friend sum up why Fi users use "reflux 'I' statements", but also it also shows that a lot of people have NO CLUE at the communication disconnect going on between these two groups.

    I'll think of some examples of when Fi users "dig in their heels" and get back to you.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #73
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    This is interesting...my Fi well never goes dry. But I get what you mean about 'continuity'.

    For love/affection I need constant activity to keep it full and brimming, it doesn't get depleted. I have almost endless affection and good cheer for those I like, especially my 'favorite people' (which includes pets...LOL). The only area my Fi can get really burn out quickly is when I'm taking on others pain/drama or am around a lot of chaos/ugliness/darkness. It's like bad vibes suck the energy out my psyche. Fi is receptive whereas Fe is directive so Fe users definitely have the advantage here as they are immune (compared to Fi users) to intangible 'bad vibes' and and can be continuous in their efforts/activity in certain arenas. For Fi users, we have to remove ourselves to restore the bubbly. When an Fe burns out it's because of the effort, when an Fi burns out it's more because of the fatigue of experience.
    Oh I agree with this, partly. I will never burn out on another Fi-user, actually, because there's a natural eb and flow in there, I find and I have a natural endurance for intensity. Just being there and sharing feelings with one another..no prob. What burns me out is constantly looking for social clues and feeling paranoid that I've missed some when I'm talking to Fe-users. Because I'm not naturally prompted to bring over soup when you tell me you're ill, or do something equally sweet when you're feeling blue, it drains the living daylights out of me. However, if you merely want someone to listen to you and explore your feelings with...I can do that all day. No kidding. CzeCze, you actually like the moderation of Fe-users, coz it leaves out the gloomy dark shit. Send them to me, for real. I have NO problem walking through the most depressing and dark feelings, if thats what they wanna explore or that's where they need a guide. But the being thoughtful little acts things..my god, that stresses me to no end.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hmm, my dear ENFP's who I love, here's a question ... how come when I give you the "look" - that look that says "rein in the Ne ... you are out of control, people aren't following you, people are thinking you've crossed the line" you never pay attention, even though you see me...

    ?

    Very simple, if it's the look I think it is, it's is the equivalent of and that will get you an instant and very strong

    If you EVER wanna make me rebel against EVERYTHING you say, plz tell me what to do. I dare you. Look down on me, shake your head disapprovingly and tell me I'm not being 'proper'. I promise you, the reaction will be worth it. I'm just not sure you'll be able to handle it. I experience this as extremely judgemental and manipulative (aka guilttripping).

    It's much more effective to point out that, though you may in fact enjoy it or not mind it, some people are perhaps not so comfortable with so much exuberance, and walk away. Let me assess the situation myself after you've drawn my attention to it and trust I'll do the right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I expect most of you already know the reason why Fe users react so badly to inaction and perceive it to be intentionally putting a spoke in the wheels. Just in case though - I think it bears repeating that

    1) Not doing something is not ever neutral and more likely than not it will be perceived negatively. Not asking about someone is interpreted as disinterest. Not communicating regularly is interpreted as either a problem between you or dislike. Not stating something positive usually means that they are assuming you are too polite or reticent to state the negative that you do feel. Not showing up somewhere is perceived as not considering it important.

    2) Because group dynamics are central to them, they assume that you see the same things that they do and have decided that it doesn't matter to you. Therefore they react as if you have already done something wrong, rather than making a request.

    3) They'd prefer something to be spontaneous rather than out of duty. You know how you hate people asking "How are you" as a polite convention? Well, asking feels like they are forcing a person to do something that they've already tacitly stated that they don't wish to do.

    4) Making things work for the other person is usually the Fe way of showing that they love someone. Therefore if they perceive that you are not on board with trying to make something work that they are trying to do (and which you are not directly opposed to), they feel unloved or that you are being selfish and react badly. This in turn provokes a bad reaction from you because the request was never made and you feel that they are misunderstanding who you are at your core and not accepting you (or only accepting you under certain conditions).

    Can any of you give some examples of situations where Fe users have driven you nuts this way and made you want to dig in your heels completely? Give an example of how the conversation could have gone instead (and at what point the request should be made), if you would be willing!

    I was a lousy student. School was something I had no say over..I was forced to go, and worse, I was forced to do homework, even for subjects that were of no particular interest to me ( I know there are good reasons for this, but try telling that to your feelings as a teenager ) My mom is an ISFJ and went bananas over the fact that I was able to assimilate a ton of info on a couple of hours, not study properly and still pass.

    During the exams she learned not to prompt me anymore and let me do my thing..but not before getting into some serious trouble and sometimes she still couldn't help herself.

    She'd see me come home from school, the previous exam and procrastinate. And she'd tell me to go study...which resulted in me adding another three hours of tv-time. Press repeat. Eventually I'd study an hour at 5 am to get up and STILL pass my exam. She went mental. The ONLY reason I even bothered to study, was coz I didn't wanna repeat my year, and was scared enough to do it. The reason I did it at night? Coz I didn'tw anna give her the satisfaction of having won. Nobody tells me how to do things that pertain to me. Nobody. As long as I'm passing, who cares how I study? Leave me the f* alone.

    Keep in mind, I'm working on this. I *know* it's not healthy and it has sabotaged many a thing in my life. Even to this day. I can even rebel at myself like that, coz I was raised by my mom to have certain standards and expectations..which I agree with. But the second I actually 'tell myself' to do something the way she used to...forget it. It aint going to happen unless it's vital and I will wing it at the last minute then. Ironically, if I don't have *any* expectation and just get intrigued by the material I have to study..I start on it hours in advance coz it's interesting. But the second I feel like I'm expected to do something, like I'm being forced to love on someone elses schedule I just go into digging my heels in-mode. And even I am not able to get me out of it. Even if I so desperately want to and know it's important. I'm not able to shift that mood.

    Coz here's the kicker. The guilttrip she always would lay on me would work. I would so feel guilty for disappointing her. I love her. She was my best friend growing up and I could feel her fear and disappointment when I got like this. So I wouldn't allow myself to enjoy the time I spent procrastinating as I felt I didn't deserve it for causing her that much grief. And I *still* experience that to this day. I *know* I should be doing something else, or so I was raised to believe. And I won't enjoy it. But the more I feel like I *should* do something, the more I refuse to give into that kinda emotional manipulation. It's a paradox I'm slowely getting the hang of now. I've found that I'm most productive when just focusing on the first step of the work to be done, without *anyone* demanding anything or expecting anything. To start early and be curious or antsy about the result and the work instead of say :this must be done. That way I actually enjoy it. Or to reason logically, I need to do this in order to accomplish this. The second there's emotional pressure though, I lock down. And there's no bulldozer big enough to move me, I assure you.

    Ironically, if you ask me to do something for you out of genuine need, something that's not to be a routine and not to be taken for granted or expected but merely inquired or asked, I'll move everything in my schedule, bend myself over backwards and go through heeps of stress just to please you and help you out.


    Another...very emotional instance for me was with my father (ENTP). He has this thing where everytime I visit, he has to mention 5 things, THE 5 things he feels I should fix in my life. I always experienced that as judgemental and very much painful criticism, especially as I so wanted his approval for so many years. It hurt me more than he'll ever know. Ironically, I'm supposedly his fav child. And, over the years, under my mom's guidance, he's gotten to be more silent around me, as to not say those things, though he stil fails at it, which then caused those huge typical ENTP-ENFP debates between us ('shape up already!' 'Quit telling me what to do!!' etc. This all changed about 6 months ago.

    Where before, when he'd touch on the subject of my appearance, I'd tell him to mind his own business, and he'd monologue all over me repeating his remark 5 times over, to the point where I was hysterically yelling at him that he was making the opposite happen as that was how I worked (see above), I remember walking in, and really looking at him.

    And what happened after was weird, and btw the result of me talking to the ENTPs here for which I am truly grateful. I saw him being insecure and nervous about seeing me. I said hi, he said hi back, inquired how we were etc etc. First thing that comes out afterwards is a remark about my appearance. But *becoz* I saw the nervousness and insecurity, I smiled. I joked about it, he made the same remark about my SO who shrugged it off (INTJs...). Suddenly, he starts telling me about his trip, asks me to come in and gives me this beautiful bracelet, while barely being able to look at me. I tend to be very genuine in my responses to gifts and last time he'd brought something I said thanks for, but wasn't really me. This time, my eyes lit up, I jumped up and down (typical ENFP-response I'd wager ) and thanked him from the bottom of my heart. When I hugged him he was actually trembling. He again shyly looked at the floor and gave me something extra, from his own private collection which he had intended on keeping...but he let me pick something out. A gorgeous figurine. I looked at him, standing there being all insecure as if he was about to be whipped and my heart just went out to him. He must have felt horrendous under my gaze but I was floored. Tears actually came to my eyes and I saw that his were filled with emotion too. I politely thanked him again from the bottom of my heart, checked if he was sure he wanted to give it away and skipped off to show it to my so, knowing he wanted some time to compose himself before going back to the rest of the family.

    It's the first time I was able to break the cycle of battles, the first time I was able to glance past the pain he initially caused with his remarks (he seriously knows how to push your most painful and secret buttons) and see the fear that laid beneath it. His remarks caused my rebelling response, which caused a TeFi-lash out *every frigging time*. And for the life of me, I coudln't understand why he kept doing it. Now I do. It is still painful to go through it, but I'm able to absorb the pain instead of reflect it back at him these days, for one sole reason: I've seen his fear and vulnerability. He doesn't know how to change this. He doesn't get where he goes wrong in our communication (while it's just a Fe/Fi misunderstanding). And *that* I'm willing to accomodate with all my heart. It's not expected, it's not imposed. It's something he needs. Hell, it's something I need. And I'll gladly jump through any hoop and every burning pain he unconsciously throws at me to accomodate the situation now and finally have at least a bit of a bond with him now.


    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    Hey fidelia, I am so happy to see you here...and while I am still feeling very 'off' and thus insecure with regards to my communication and how I will come across (man I don't know what the heck is wrong with me but I have a total head fog)...I am going to try and put a couple of brain cells together because this is so important to me.

    I am embarrassed to admit this but it wasn't until fairly recently that I started to take a good, hard look at my communication with others. It is not that I haven't always 'striven' (I'm pretty sure I just made up that word - ha!) for self-awareness...but I am starting to get this sense that a lot of say...my more undesirable communication/behavior may be/have been overlooked, ignored, secretly forgiven and never mentioned...subsequently leaving me to go about my life believing 'I really have a way with people - people respond well to me' - when in reality they could be thinking quite the opposite.

    I am also embarrassed to admit that while I have been interested in MBTI for several years...I apparently missed completely that there was this 'whole nuther' function called Fe. It didn't occur to me that this function was practically a photo negative of Fi, etc. etc. (I had to put in the 2 etc. because I don't really know what I'm talking about here). Basically, I didn't 'get' that there were people in this world that not only would NOT tell me if I upset them, hurt them, annoyed them...but that they could hide/control their feelings so well that I wouldn't even be able to make the connection between me, our communication & their feelings about our communication.

    Much of my ignorance was reinforced by the fact I grew up completely surrounded by ENFPs. A sister, brother and a whole host of childhood-into-adult friends. Like I suspect every type experiences when surrounded by their own...it is easy. I mean, at least as far as ENFP communication goes...you don't have to think. When I am surrounded by ENFPs I know I can 'blast' one of them for something they said or did...and it is quite likely they will know, 100%, that I make no judgment on their character. I can put my foot in my mouth or forget our anniversary and they will still know my intentions are pure or that they mean the world to me. I don't have to be careful using 'I' language...or phrases like 'IMO' because that is somehow (supposed to be) implied with ENFPs. And I don't have to worry about inviting another ENFP to talk because they will tell me whether I want to hear or space-out.

    I am not used to the 'more formal' Fe function. And it often feels like I am trying to make room in my brain to fit what still feels like 'all these very specific rules & regulations' to me...so far removed from my more 'thoughtless but sincerely well-meaning' style.

    My INFJ...well...whatever he was I no longer know - ha! And my ISTJ sister who started taking interest in overcoming our differences (I had no idea we had differences I just thought she was often in a pissy mood)...those two got me thinking about other things other than last nights NOVA for a few seconds...then 'do I have any bills due' for a few seconds...to a few seconds of 'aren't fireworks cool' and 'I'm not sure what I think of guys that drive red sports cars'...

    INFJs, other Js (except for my ex-bosses) other introverts, are worth it to me to do the work it will take for this ENFP to learn a whole new social language.

    I hope those individuals from the list above can comment on this thread or some others...so I can be a better friend, family member, wife or SO...
    A better human-being because I am able to communicate how much the other person means to me in a way they can understand.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

  4. #74
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    ***I orignally thought this would post after Scott n Denver...and then people got bizzy...and so this beginning may not make sense. Skip down too the TOTALLY AWESOME STUFF I WROTE (I want to see if any ENFPs get this with regards to Fe doms)

    Even the ENFP thread starts to morf into an INFJ thread!! Hey...I'm on my own turf so I will say this about the INFJ... I think it is crazy how many people want to get close to the INFJ...wants to learn from the INFJ...appreciates and loves the INFJ...
    And I guess...yah...show (change) the INFJ that social nicities and order does not guarentee children get fed and elderly patients don't get beaten in their assisted living facilities. Nor will it protect the INFJ. But it seems very clear to me that these individuals (like Esoteric Wench) are doing battle with what they view as the barrier to the INFJ - not the INFJ themself. I hope that makes sense. And I hope INFJs know that it is just going to be especially difficult being such awesome individuals that people love and cherish.

    ***
    If I had to create an argument against Fe or try and demonstrate what the difference is or something to that effect...I think I would use this analogy.

    Somewhere in Denmark or some other part of the world where you get like 5 months paid vacation a year...

    There was a particularily difficult round-about in the road...with something like four roads or side streets connected to it. Anyway, people kept getting in crashes and car accidents...and cars often collided with bicyclists and pedestrians.

    The initial solution was to increase the amount of street warning signs along with painting all kinds of indicators on the pavement itself. But what happened was the number of accidents actually went up - not down.

    After many months of this I believe the city workers had had enough...and they decided to take all of the signs down. And so soon this dangerous stretch of road ended up having nothing...nothing to help guide the cars, bikes, people walking, etc.

    And the accidents dropped to like...zero.

    Basically what happened is they made people 100% responsible for themselves...they could no longer depend on signs and paint to guide them.

    With regards to how social behavior sometimes affects me...all one needs to do is substitute the word 'misunderstandings' for accidents in the above story. I feel social behavior allows people to sleep at the wheel...and I do see this leading to an eventual crash.

    But I can honestly say...this really is my opinion...and I don't want to change anyone. Don't get me wrong...I sometimes want people to at least give 'my way' a shot...but I am honest when I say I would never want to change another person. Hopefully just understand a bit of me better.

  5. #75
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    This is from a previous thread where I described how Fe can be exhausting to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I have to agree on the whole 'insisting on an appology when someone clearly had no intention of pissing you off, or did something on purpose.' It seems petty.

    Honestly, that's the thing that wears me out about Fe. It expects you to catch every little consideration for everyone around with an overabundance of thank you's, pleases, and sorries, to the point where it becomes a bully. It like feels self-righteous to demand these things from people and becomes rude and rather uncivil in the process, which just looks ironic and hypocritical to me. Not to mention judgemental. This is also why Fi always feels Fe is judgemental, coz it expresses leading thoughts, jumping to conclusions according to the social norm and according to what social bonusses you received by your actions which you haven't even thought of but they won't even believe you hadn't, instead of listening to the reasoning as to why a Fi-user did something. It assumes. And, gets paranoid about the correction of its assumptions. Drives me mental that. Then it demands that you confess your lies or you're deceitful, lying, selfish, cruel or worse, in denial and need a reality check.

    At this point, I just wanna cry. Really. How you can believe such things about me, it's just downright hurtful. I give you the benefit of the doubt and all you can do is accuse me and demand I appologize for trivial things coz they weren't up to your standards. And when I refuse, you slander my name and guilttrip me for being a horrible person?

    At that point, I'd give anythign to wake up and discover it's all a bad dream.

    /rant.

    Also, I wanted to mention that the thread that this post came from, nl:


    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...lfishness.html

    was really illuminating as to the cluelessness I had towards the Social Contract as discussed by me and onemoretime (and others), in that thread. It really opened my eyes, so I can definitely recommend the read. It starts with a hypothetical situation and how Fi and Fe react differently to it:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1073621
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

  6. #76
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yeah I've noticed this plenty of times.

    Not to mention the silliness you mentioned in the OP, especially when sharing/discussing ideas. From my corner it often looks like some combination of Meet the Press with the Teletubbies. "Good morning, we're going to discuss the economic effects of Tinky Winky's policies involving dancing around the tree - YAY!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post


    Yeah, OK. In grad school, I had somebody say to me once, "You are able to talk about the most esoteric subjects with such a sense of childlike glee and silliness."

    Thus was the origins of the name Esoteric Wench.
    I would say this is the hallmark, the ultimate litmus test for whether someone is ENFP.

    Ne = fascination with esoteric subjects. Fi = childlike glee.

    Even the "Te style" ENFPs do this, though they may be more self conscious about where and when and with whom they do it.

    INFPs do it, too, but it's more hidden.
    INTJs totally understand it, but the Ni Te face will say "Glee? Childlike? What's that?" and stare you down.

    ENTPs do it, too, but it isn't so childlike. There's too much logic involved, and not enough simple artistic appreciation. The focus is different. An ENTP would be fascinated by a robot. An ENFP would be fascinated by a robot unicorn.

  7. #77
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I never "got" unicorns, really. It's a horse with a horn on it.

    Narwhals on the other hand...

  8. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    See, only they're allowed to make faces and such and have them interperated. Want a reasponse and a reaction you have to do something big (huge, enormous) to get their attention, then tell them what's going on in no uncertain terms. Then leave if the don't listen.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hmm, my dear ENFP's who I love, here's a question ... how come when I give you the "look" - that look that says "rein in the Ne ... you are out of control, people aren't following you, people are thinking you've crossed the line" you never pay attention, even though you see me...

    ?

    PB, if I had to take a stab...

    First we are in our own heads in spite of being somewhat extroverted-My enfp friend said if you want him to know something write it on a post it note, tape it to the end of a 2" by 4" and hit him in the forehead with it.

    We dont pick up on subtle hints.

    Second, we have terrible Ne paranoia. We already have issues thinking everyone dislikes us. We tend towards getting offended too easily for this reason. We will "Ne-read" into most situations. This is partially due to being Fe-blind and missing much of the unspoken convos-yet sorta knowing they are going on. So Ne will lead us to assume the VERY WORST case scenario and be very hurt or angry. If we act upon this everyone around us goes "The ENFP just went nuts again...."

    Around 20 I learned that 90% of the time I am being nuts and I should ignore my intuitions about the motives of others if they seem negative. I file them away but automatically assume I am taking it too harshly and that I likely misread into the situation.

    Problematically-10% of the time this means I am blatantly ignoring a subtle message being conveyed-because I cant tell if I am being paranoid or not.

    I have to do this as otherwise I'd go bonkers.

    To tell an enfp something:
    1. Gently pull them aside (here give them a rep)
    2. Very directly say "your actions seem to be out of line or over the top"
    3. Do not say YOU are out of line as it will be taken as an Fi insult and prompt a defensive response. Focus on the action itself, not the person.
    4. NEVER assume motive as, oddly, even INFPs here really screw up when assessing ENFP motives.

    We VERY much seek to grow and learn and INFPs are one of the very best groups we can learn from. So we REALLY want feedback-it just has to be fairly direct in nature. Just to give you an idea of things INFPs have taught me:

    1. responsibility for my own emotions
    2. the need for self forgiveness
    3. a slow unvieling of Fi to others
    4. hints at how to hold my Fi pain inside and let it sort and settle
    5. hints at Fi gradiation

  9. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ne = fascination with esoteric subjects. Fi = childlike glee.

    ENTPs do it, too, but it isn't so childlike. There's too much logic involved, and not enough simple artistic appreciation. The focus is different. An ENTP would be fascinated by a robot. An ENFP would be fascinated by a robot unicorn.
    hehe, ENTPs can too be childlike! They are my favorite playmates (though make terrible mates...my INTJ fills that niche delightfully!)

    Ne makes us childlike and full of endless wonder and curiosity about what is coming up next.

    Fi gives us an innocence about how we do so....a lack of intent and a desire not to harm. It also even further detaches Ne from a thinking function, thus we come up with even more random stuff than ENTPs do. Our Ne really is very unbounded. Fi also is mapping the world's complexities....but I dont understand this...

    Peacebaby has often noted that the uumlau "childlike Fi" is not really quite accurate...However I wonder if this has to do with how refined and mature Fi is in an INFP or even very good ENFP users like Satine or SS-where Fi has a lot of resolution in it's value sets. It still exudes kindness and caring, but wisdom as well...I dunno...

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I expect most of you already know the reason why Fe users react so badly to inaction and perceive it to be intentionally putting a spoke in the wheels. Just in case though - I think it bears repeating that

    1) Not doing something is not ever neutral and more likely than not it will be perceived negatively. Not asking about someone is interpreted as disinterest. Not communicating regularly is interpreted as either a problem between you or dislike. Not stating something positive usually means that they are assuming you are too polite or reticent to state the negative that you do feel. Not showing up somewhere is perceived as not considering it important.

    2) Because group dynamics are central to them, they assume that you see the same things that they do and have decided that it doesn't matter to you. Therefore they react as if you have already done something wrong, rather than making a request.

    3) They'd prefer something to be spontaneous rather than out of duty. You know how you hate people asking "How are you" as a polite convention? Well, asking feels like they are forcing a person to do something that they've already tacitly stated that they don't wish to do.

    4) Making things work for the other person is usually the Fe way of showing that they love someone. Therefore if they perceive that you are not on board with trying to make something work that they are trying to do (and which you are not directly opposed to), they feel unloved or that you are being selfish and react badly. This in turn provokes a bad reaction from you because the request was never made and you feel that they are misunderstanding who you are at your core and not accepting you (or only accepting you under certain conditions).

    Can any of you give some examples of situations where Fe users have driven you nuts this way and made you want to dig in your heels completely? Give an example of how the conversation could have gone instead (and at what point the request should be made), if you would be willing!
    This is excellent Fidelia.

    What happens if you place an Fe leadership position where they have to make direct assertions? What happens if they are met with open Te style disagreement?

    This messes with me totally as I expect direct requests if someone needs something. If I dont get that I assume everything is okay. When I get out of sorts I typically will remove myself as I dont want to overemote onto others and bring them down as that would be Fe rude. But it sounds as though I then come across to the Fe users as being rude and not liking them. I cant win!! AHHHHH!

    I would expect that an Fe dom or aux might be able to predict and understand my repspone a bit better...but a tert or inf Fe user might see Fe in much more black and white terms.....This may explain an issue I have been having with an old INTP friend very well.

    I made him mad somehow-not sure how...he wanted to talk at first, but was very busy..after that he always seemed to be avoiding me, so I just started avoiding him. I will not go bother someone who doesnt want me around. I would rather not risk the emotional rejection, so I will stay away unless they seek me out. Sorta the assumption that he isnt wanting to feed the trolls, thus I dont seek feeding. It hurts as I cared for him and his family very much. I have seen this pattern with ENTPs as well.

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