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  1. #681
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    This represents sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation. Just because I said it that doesn't mean that I will stand by this opninion and that this is my final answer. This is thinking out loud until proven otherwise. Since what I said is simply verbalisation of what facts suggest in my head. What is why I bacame pseudo INTJ because my family couldn't deal with the constant judgements.

    I said something that simply represents what I tend to think or suggest, but I never claimed that this is final truth or the word of God. Because as a Te dom you are the one with the plan and the one that will/should build the structure. Therefore with this you simply signal everybody how far we went as a group and what is bottom line at this point. Fe dom would perhaps try to run from the holes in the system but real Te dom would know that this is unsustanable on the long run. (in my opinion)
    As I said few lines before, this is simply how it looks to me (the most probable conclusion), I never said there are no alternatives. On the other hand you are process oriented instead of goal oriented and you don't "publish" anything until you are certain. (especially because you claim to be fear type) Since you have uncomfort with conclusions and you see than as something to be avoided. When you are building Nuclear power plant this is reasonable but in most real life situations it isn't. Talk may be cheap but it isn't forbidden.

    VG, I really enjoy discussing things with you and know that I could learn a shitload from you about the world, etc. <-I mean, I'm not the best at expressing these kinds of sentiments in spite of being a bleeding heart/feeler and so I hope you are able to sense that I truly mean that. Again, I think there are many things that I don't know or am misinformed on that you could correct and/or enlighten me on. The above though...

    Like, I'm not attached to being right. That's not why I'm here. Perhaps I don't communicate in the nicest of ways and so it appears like I'm just trying to be corrective or something for sport or image or whathaveyou... No. I'm here because I think you are a great person that has a lot to offer another human being in a relationship...not even an FP...I'm just using FP as a way to discuss what is a more general issue. From what I gather about you...you would ultimately like to end-up in a partnership. And my overall message is...I believe there is something with regards to your thinking that is causing you to arrive at a variety of different "temporary conclusions" that will make fulfilling that goal challenging for you. These assumptions...or temporary conclusions that you announce to the group...I could see this method as working decently I suppose if you were leading an army into battle or trying to make a lot of money perhaps. But if interpersonal relationships are the order of the day...then I'm hoping you can take a step back and call on some different strategies. If interpersonal relationships aren't important...then keep on truckin.

    Just out of curiosity...what caused you to arrive at a check-point conclusion that you announce to the group/assume...that I didn't already completely understand all of what you just told me I didn't? Like, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Above you temporarily decided I was merely expressing a "sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation"...and then move forward (you are acting on these temporary opinions/conclusions which was my expressed concern prior to you just doing it again) by telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I already knew and had taken into consideration just before saying exactly what I said. Do you see how this kind of response might be...not just insulting but downright bizarre for people wanting to establish a relationship with you? Perhaps here it would only be ENFPs that suffer...I don't know. So I'm asking...what caused you to "temporarily conclude and act" or assume I didn't already get all of this?



    This is too Fi like question for me to give simple answer. I want what I consider accurate and best in the current situation. Because what wins you situations isn't quality or quantity, but ratio between quality and quantity that is deployed well under the circumstances. You can have incredible grasp of the facts but if you are in the wrong place in the wrong time this may not matter at all.

    But ot be honest I am not sure what you are trully asking me. (English isn't my first langauge)
    I'm not sure why you announced and acted on a temporary opinion that my question was born of Fi (I was trying to create a very black and white question but most likely failed)...but I can see how it would be too broad to give a simple answer. I'm thinking if you address what I just wrote there's no need for me to break things down here.



    To tell you the truth I used to be like you, gathering little pieces of information, creating constructes, reading a few books a day etc. Since I was tought this is a good thing.
    However through messiness of life I have realized that this isn't really a living, living is going out there and making a difference, remaking the situations, spreading the information etc.
    Above...are you arriving at a temporary opinion and then expressing it as if it were true that a small pleasure I have in life interferes with me going out there and making a difference?


    I suppose it is reasonable, but on the other hand it can be very alienating if people think that you should be someone else.
    I don't think people want you to be someone else. If they did you wouldn't have attracted them in the first place. I think people don't always know how to initiate engagement with others and at times stupid things happen.
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  2. #682
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity...what caused you to arrive at a check-point conclusion that you announce to the group/assume...that I didn't already completely understand all of what you just told me I didn't? Like, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Above you temporarily decided I was merely expressing a "sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation"...and then move forward (you are acting on these temporary opinions/conclusions which was my expressed concern prior to you just doing it again) by telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I already knew and had taken into consideration just before saying exactly what I said. Do you see how this kind of response might be...not just insulting but downright bizarre for people wanting to establish a relationship with you? Perhaps here it would only be ENFPs that suffer...I don't know. So I'm asking...what caused you to "temporarily conclude and act" or assume I didn't already get all of this?
    @Starry

    Interesting here. Now, I have not followed yours and VG's back and forth. I have only read the post I took this out of but this is by far, the most difficult thing for me, personally, that I have dealt with in dealing with Fi. Meaning: I should not assume the Fi person does not understand simply because they aren't communicating it in a way in which I receive feedback.

    I also recognize how similar it is to Ti process. In that, the other party needs this "master key" of assumption that understanding is understood (Fi) or knows what the correct question to ask (Ti) in order to get proper communication.
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  3. #683
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    @Starry

    Interesting here. Now, I have not followed yours and VG's back and forth. I have only read the post I took this out of but this is by far, the most difficult thing for me, personally, that I have dealt with in dealing with Fi. Meaning: I should not assume the Fi person does not understand simply because they aren't communicating it in a way in which I receive feedback.

    I also recognize how similar it is to Ti process. In that, the other party needs this "master key" of assumption that understanding is understood (Fi) or knows what the correct question to ask (Ti) in order to get proper communication.

    We all arrive at "temporary understandings" of people, places, things, events, exchanges...this is how we fumble our way through interpersonal relationships and life. Fi not only gets this...we are right there alongside everyone else doing the same. It's what the person does with that assumption that Fi responds well or extremely poorly to.

    I don't have a problem with someone arriving at a temporary conclusion that I don't understand something that is being expressed. I mean, I'm sure you and everyone else can relate to the thought... "damn, how dumb does this person think I am?" But in general...even without theories like Typology to account for a lot of it...I get that we all communicate differently and when you add to that things like...distractions, mood, bias, etc. misunderstandings and miscommunication are going to be happening. It would have to have been an exceptional situation for me to "lose sleep" over someone merely assuming I didn't understand something. I'm also rarely bothered by people assuming I didn't or don't understand...so that they take to kindly explaining.

    The 'temporary conclusion/assumption' model that I already know you subscribe to is the ideal in my opinion...not just for the benefit of human relationships and the respectful treatment of others but for relative accuracy. If you assumed something about me during a discussion...you would ask me about it...and weigh my response when coming to a final conclusion. <-Fi likes.

    What I'm seeing out of VG and others..."temporary conclusion" without the request for clarification...and then action. I mean, I understand what VG is saying that the opinion/assumption is temporary...but I don't quite see how that matters when action is still being taken on it. The damage is still being done. This is what makes Fi crazy. In that passage you quoted...VG temporarily concluded or temporarily arrived at the opinion I didn't understand all of what I had already considered prior to asking him those very questions. Instead of inquiring with regards to clarification...he went on to assign his temporary conclusion to 'stereotypical NFP mistakes' when no mistake had actually been made. And so he will have to forgive me if I am not confident in his understanding of 'stereotypical NFP mistakes' due to all that has come before. This may all be okay for him and his fumbling through life... but it is hurtful to others (edit: and i'm not talking hurtful as in *feelings* as I sense that temporary opinion comin on. hurtful to others as in mislabeling, reputation, etc.) and increases problems in general in my opinion.
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  4. #684
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    VG, I really enjoy discussing things with you and know that I could learn a shitload from you about the world, etc. <-I mean, I'm not the best at expressing these kinds of sentiments in spite of being a bleeding heart/feeler and so I hope you are able to sense that I truly mean that. Again, I think there are many things that I don't know or am misinformed on that you could correct and/or enlighten me on. The above though...

    Like, I'm not attached to being right. That's not why I'm here. Perhaps I don't communicate in the nicest of ways and so it appears like I'm just trying to be corrective or something for sport or image or whathaveyou... No. I'm here because I think you are a great person that has a lot to offer another human being in a relationship...not even an FP...I'm just using FP as a way to discuss what is a more general issue. From what I gather about you...you would ultimately like to end-up in a partnership. And my overall message is...I believe there is something with regards to your thinking that is causing you to arrive at a variety of different "temporary conclusions" that will make fulfilling that goal challenging for you. These assumptions...or temporary conclusions that you announce to the group...I could see this method as working decently I suppose if you were leading an army into battle or trying to make a lot of money perhaps. But if interpersonal relationships are the order of the day...then I'm hoping you can take a step back and call on some different strategies. If interpersonal relationships aren't important...then keep on truckin.

    I am unsure what to say since I was being systematically cut off from the interpersonal relationships. I never had a GF, I don't have a brother, sister or even cousin, I never had a pet, my parents had to work most of the time, I have lost many of good friends due to various circumstances, I was even the only student in the class at one point .... etc. I have a problem with relationships and I am not hidding that, I am simply lacking experience. I often don't know what to do or what to say that it sounds nice.




    Just out of curiosity...what caused you to arrive at a check-point conclusion that you announce to the group/assume...that I didn't already completely understand all of what you just told me I didn't? Like, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Above you temporarily decided I was merely expressing a "sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation"...and then move forward (you are acting on these temporary opinions/conclusions which was my expressed concern prior to you just doing it again) by telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I already knew and had taken into consideration just before saying exactly what I said. Do you see how this kind of response might be...not just insulting but downright bizarre for people wanting to establish a relationship with you? Perhaps here it would only be ENFPs that suffer...I don't know. So I'm asking...what caused you to "temporarily conclude and act" or assume I didn't already get all of this?

    Well, English isn't my first language so I probably make holes in my expression and to be honest I am losing myself in your words. Sometimes I even have to read a few times your text to understand what you were perhaps trying to say. The thing is that I am naturally blunt and do what I consider ok in the situation, however if you are going to search for consistency in my every word then you will probably get confused. Since I am not emotionally too consistent man, especially if I am half confused by entire conversation.




    Above...are you arriving at a temporary opinion and then expressing it as if it were true that a small pleasure I have in life interferes with me going out there and making a difference?
    Perhaps to some degree, but I am mostly dealing with myself there. The point was that I used to be more similar to you as I was younger. (at least that is my impression)




    I don't think people want you to be someone else. If they did you wouldn't have attracted them in the first place. I think people don't always know how to initiate engagement with others and at times stupid things happen.
    Well it was only temporary and I never met those people again. However my own parents can make a parody of me in order to prove some random point that is in their head. In general everybody thinks I am too serious.

  5. #685
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I am unsure what to say since I was being systematically cut off from the interpersonal relationships. I never had a GF, I don't have a brother, sister or even cousin, I never had a pet, my parents had to work most of the time, I have lost many of good friends due to various circumstances, I was even the only student in the class at one point .... etc. I have a problem with relationships and I am not hidding that, I am simply lacking experience. I often don't know what to do or what to say that it sounds nice.

    Yah, this is what I find so special/amazing about you in a very *realism* type way... How evolved and not bitter and human and whole you are in spite of your experiences. And just so you know this isn't a "temporary opinion that is subject to change". (I'm also dictating reality because it is okay when I do it.) No, I'm just kinda adamant about what I'm saying in this instance.

    I hope in this ^instance you assume that I know what I'm talking about.
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  6. #686
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Yah, this is what I find so special/amazing about you in a very *realism* type way... How evolved and not bitter and human and whole you are in spite of your experiences. And just so you know this isn't a "temporary opinion that is subject to change". (I'm also dictating reality because it is okay when I do it.) No, I'm just kinda adamant about what I'm saying in this instance.

    I hope in this ^instance you assume that I know what I'm talking about.

    My past is what it is so it is reasonable that your opinion is static as well.

    I guess that this is a good time to say "what doesn't get you killed makes you stronger". In this situation this trully may be the case.
    In a way it is quite simple, you build a shell and you go through all of this as if nothing happens.


    Here is my variant test back from the day when I came to this forum searching for answers.



  7. #687
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    My past is what it is so it is reasonable that your opinion is static as well.

    I guess that this is a good time to say "what doesn't get you killed makes you stronger". In this situation this trully may be the case.
    In a way it is quite simple, you build a shell and you go through all of this as if nothing happens.


    Here is my variant test back from the day when I came to this forum searching for answers.




    Ha! I was in a bad way when I first came here looking for answers and my SP results were super high as well. And yet when I would read the descriptions I would think..."ahhhh?" Yah, what you shared reinforces all that I came to believe. (having gone through a confusing end to a relationship I was also testing as e4 which in spite of having a lot of 4 influence still seemed off as well.)


    It's interesting to me that such a decent sized handful of the TJs on this site actually believe they know ENFPs better than ENFPs (NFPs better than NFPs). Like, I can't even imagine going through life with that degree of arrogance. What I described with regards to 'sensitivity to criticism' vs 'sensitivity to forced reality by conceited people who actually think they know better than you' has been spelled out many times on this site by a variety of NFPs over the years...and I've still got chubber telling me I'm wrong...I've got ceecee making a distinction based on 2 friends of "mature ENFPs" which I've seen her do before are you fucking kidding me? Someday I'll share how old I am and how long I've been doing this..."mature ENFPs" please. MBTI has been around for some time now and is the only personality theory that has relative credibility and reception in the scientific and social scientific communities. It has been tested fairly extensively considering...due to the fact it is has a great deal of application in private industry (it makes money). If age, development and health changed the way a type responded and expressed that significantly there would be work/research/studies/journal articles on that. But ceecee knows better.

    But yah, I couldn't even begin to imagine correcting a xxTJ with regards to TJs in a TJ thread. I have to come back... edit: just please don't be that way VG.
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  8. #688
    Irony at critical level Amargith's Avatar
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    Qualifiers and benefit of the doubt, people.

    It goes a long way.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

  9. #689
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ha! I was in a bad way when I first came here looking for answers and my SP results were super high as well. And yet when I would read the descriptions I would think..."ahhhh?" Yah, what you shared reinforces all that I came to believe. (having gone through a confusing end to a relationship I was also testing as e4 which in spite of having a lot of 4 influence still seemed off as well.)


    It's interesting to me that such a decent sized handful of the TJs on this site actually believe they know ENFPs better than ENFPs (NFPs better than NFPs). Like, I can't even imagine going through life with that degree of arrogance. What I described with regards to 'sensitivity to criticism' vs 'sensitivity to forced reality by conceited people who actually think they know better than you' has been spelled out many times on this site by a variety of NFPs over the years...and I've still got chubber telling me I'm wrong...I've got ceecee making a distinction based on 2 friends of "mature ENFPs" which I've seen her do before are you fucking kidding me? Someday I'll share how old I am and how long I've been doing this..."mature ENFPs" please. MBTI has been around for some time now and is the only personality theory that has relative credibility and reception in the scientific and social scientific communities. It has been tested fairly extensively considering...due to the fact it is has a great deal of application in private industry (it makes money). If age, development and health changed the way a type responded and expressed that significantly there would be work/research/studies/journal articles on that. But ceecee knows better.

    But yah, I couldn't even begin to imagine correcting a xxTJ with regards to TJs in a TJ thread. I have to come back... edit: just please don't be that way VG.

    What you see as arrogance someone else would see as honesty, efficency focus, determination, etc. I don't think they claim to know you that well as much as they show how far you are from their expectations or what they see as reasonable. I admit, sometimes NFP logic doesn't make much sense to me to the point that the person seems delusional or it lies to hide blame or guilt.




    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Qualifiers and benefit of the doubt, people.

    It goes a long way.
    Aren't you big fan of pushing people's buttons ?

  10. #690
    Irony at critical level Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    What you see as arrogance someone else would see as honesty, efficency focus, determination, etc. I don't think they claim to know you that well as much as they show how far you are from their expectations or what they see as reasonable. I admit, sometimes NFP logic doesn't make much sense to me to the point that the person seems delusional or it lies to hide blame or guilt.


    Aren't you big fan of pushing people's buttons ?
    Grin. Yes - but only with their consent, and only in a pleasant way, for both of us. I like people to be in on the joke. When they're unaware that I'm doing it, it usually is a button pushing that they don't notice and will not be negatively affected by in any way. Most of the time, tbh, I just observe. People do plenty crazy shit on their own to study without your interference.

    Also, I'm an even bigger fan of eradicating misunderstandings (and conflict that comes from it), streamlining, optimising and generally making communication clear and efficient.



    Look, VG..you're a fan of efficiency, aren't you? What Starry is trying to tell you is that our perceptions may get shared by other NTJs, but they're not necessarily correctly interpreted by you and therefore will fuck up efficient communication between you and ENFPs. Qualifiers and asking questions for confirmation on your perceptions and *believing* them/ taking their word for it/giving them the benefit of the doubt when they tell you that those interpretations of your perceptions are in fact incorrect is a great way to start rectifying that efficiency problem in communication

    One way to do that is to use words like 'seems', 'imho', 'comes off as', etc, instead of absolute statements (aka, 'you are', 'this proves that', and so on) - > qualifiers. Rephrasing your absolute statements as questions, is another. Ask for confirmation and be open to being wrong.

    That's what I *think* (see what I did there :P) @Starry is getting at.


    Assumptions tend to be the death of efficient communication, ime. Not to mention, it's just fucking lazy at best, and, well..potentially harmful at worst.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale
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