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  1. #571
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlechaser View Post
    I'm glad! A lot of my models for people and myself are shapes and textures, do you ever find yourself feeling a quasi synesthesia related to emotional associations and textures/colors/shapes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yes! Not so much colors and shapes, but textures, viscosity and spatial relationships, distance and time. <3
    I have no idea what y'all are talking about.

    And I feel like emotional problems wreak havoc on my life.

    When it comes to this compartmentalization: I have no idea if I'm really good at it, or really bad at it.

    What is compartmentalization? How does it work? What is it used for?

    How does it relate to emotional suppression? Self control?

    Do Ts seem to be better at it? Or Fs?

    / not an ENFP, but have been hearing about this a lot lately, and am curious
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  2. #572
    Member thistlechaser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I have no idea what y'all are talking about.

    And I feel like emotional problems wreak havoc on my life.

    When it comes to this compartmentalization: I have no idea if I'm really good at it, or really bad at it.

    What is compartmentalization? How does it work? What is it used for?

    How does it relate to emotional suppression? Self control?

    Do Ts seem to be better at it? Or Fs?

    / not an ENFP, but have been hearing about this a lot lately, and am curious
    For me, when I am forming associations between what I'm experiencing, what I have experienced, the pattern that I notice, and what I intend to do with that knowledge, it all happens in a very quick feeling inside that has textures, colors, shapes to work as a heuristic. Like a heuristic that I can touch inside of myself (that's what she said).

    Your question feels slippery to me. I am having trouble relating it to any frameworks I have, so it's jumping. I'll reread your questions and see what shape forms.

    It feels dark. I am trying to figure out what it would feel like for my inner world to be dark and free of shapes. To not have these impressions and not know what it feels like to be unaware of their presence. Certainly, you have associations with your emotional states, but to be unaware of how you decide to use the associations that are being formed, and what quick conclusions to draw about them before deciding which thing goes in which box, how do you make your decisions without these sensations? How could you ever have any certainty? You must have no certainty, that would be terrifying (this assumption, were I to say it and mean it, I'd need to reread what you wrote at least 4 more times and see how an assertion like that "feels" against my impression of you to figure out if I was making a correct assumption about the nature of your inner world).

    Simply, it seems to me to happen in those who are close to the middle, the ENXP's, and especially those who are spatial learners. All new info has a feeling, and all shapes, colors, numbers, social interactions, theories, time periods, and measurements invoke similar feelings and are interchangeable as metaphor. Whenever I am playing with them, I pick up my shapes and move them around. I think it's a Ne thing, maybe? You have Ni, right? Maybe that's why it feels different for me.

  3. #573
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlechaser View Post
    For me, when I am forming associations between what I'm experiencing, what I have experienced, the pattern that I notice, and what I intend to do with that knowledge, it all happens in a very quick feeling inside that has textures, colors, shapes to work as a heuristic. Like a heuristic that I can touch inside of myself (that's what she said).

    Your question feels slippery to me. I am having trouble relating it to any frameworks I have, so it's jumping. I'll reread your questions and see what shape forms.

    It feels dark. I am trying to figure out what it would feel like for my inner world to be dark and free of shapes. To not have these impressions and not know what it feels like to be unaware of their presence. Certainly, you have associations with your emotional states, but to be unaware of how you decide to use the associations that are being formed, and what quick conclusions to draw about them before deciding which thing goes in which box, how do you make your decisions without these sensations? How could you ever have any certainty? You must have no certainty, that would be terrifying (this assumption, were I to say it and mean it, I'd need to reread what you wrote at least 4 more times and see how an assertion like that "feels" against my impression of you to figure out if I was making a correct assumption about the nature of your inner world).

    Simply, it seems to me to happen in those who are close to the middle, the ENXP's, and especially those who are spatial learners. All new info has a feeling, and all shapes, colors, numbers, social interactions, theories, time periods, and measurements invoke similar feelings and are interchangeable as metaphor. Whenever I am playing with them, I pick up my shapes and move them around. I think it's a Ne thing, maybe? You have Ni, right? Maybe that's why it feels different for me.
    I don't know.

    That was all very confusing to me.

    With the bolded, you seemed to be onto something, tho.

    That's where what you were saying started resonating.

    I don't think it tells the whole story.

    But there was something there.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  4. #574
    Member thistlechaser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't know.

    That was all very confusing to me.

    With the bolded, you seemed to be onto something, tho.

    That's where what you were saying started resonating.

    I don't think it tells the whole story.

    But there was something there.
    Interesting. This is encouraging for me, because the part that I thought would be incomprehensible in what I said was the part that seemed to begin to resonate with you. These are the insights that I typically hide from people when I'm talking to them, trying to make everything more logical, instead (I tend to hide my Fi and Ne stuff because it's all so abstract and seems nonsensical to me). I'll try continuing to blabber on about my impressions that I'm getting about your Ni.

    It seems to me like your ideas feel very separate already. That not much of anything relates to anything else, and it all feels pretty meaningless most of the time


    Bear with me, I'm going to try something completely new and never tried before and see what results we get. I'm going to read the profile for INTJ again and see what pops out at me and write it in bold. We'll see how effective this method is for those-like-you things.

    Ni -Te feels lonely and quiet. Quiet, interspersed with the occasional memories and confusion. There's a feeling that things outside of self are already known before examining them, and everything is apparent and easy to understand. But the self, inside...that is not. There are single desires that are very loud, but then just as quickly, very mutable. Structures make sense, but what is the meaning?


    Ah it's the Ne-Fi that's giving me the ability to maneuver through myself. Your Fi is far down and makes it difficult to figure out what means what and the lack of Ne leaves you with only a few things floating around in your mind at any given moment to be able to compare your current thoughts to.

    Te is a comfortable place. When things make sense, everything is comfortable. When systems work according to planned and there is no clutter, all of that space is very comforting. Slowly, there will rise colors and passions into the muted whiteness. I saw whiteness now, because I think I misinterpreted what color the inside of your consciousness is. It's white, like a blank sheet of paper.

    I'm going back to reread about Ni to see where the focus is directed when Ni performs it's notorious something out of nothing, an epigenesis of the ideas.

    Maybe it's not focused anywhere. Maybe that's the point of Ni. I had always assumed that it's direction is focused inward, but it could just be a blank piece of paper where the Te makes the structures and the Fi informs the meaning.

    I have a friend who is an INTJ who when he isn't at work, smokes weed, drinks, and builds things in minecraft all day, punctuated by a lot of whiny rants on facebook about whichever political thing he's pissed off about that particular day, and I never can figure out what exactly he's railing against because if he'd just go out and take in new insights, make new connections, he'd get out of his rut. I have an ENTJ friend who always seems to find the simplest answers to my most perplexing of life's interpersonal problems--when in doubt, cut it out.

    The Ni dominance of the INTJ must feel like a very ordered mental space where very little new goes on inside until something activates the desire to solve a problem.

    My Te is tertiary, I like to think I'm very logical and it's funny that the things I say to you through my Te lens seem garbled to you. You are more proficient with Te, so you see the static surrounding my Te. You have my Fi, as well, so you can check for meaning just as I can, but my world is a bit more vibrant and radiating with meaning than yours--my space inside is very cluttered, very disorderly.

    **Your space and comfort inside are calming, Ni seems to need a lot of quiet and space to activate itself. Ni gives space for the Te and Fi to dance together, little wisps of color against the blank page. Te is always active, always seeing the "right" way, the obvious answer, and Ni gives it all the space it needs to operate, nudging it subtly towards this thing or that thing, but always in the background, the unspoken hero."


    I envy your mind. Your simplicity and calmness. To have a day where my head isn't jumbled up with 50 things all the time. To be able to spend my time focused primarily on the puzzles and patterns I love so much, it fills me with yearning. I may be able to draw connections between one thing and 50 million other things, but it's difficult for me to have original thoughts and solutions in all this mess. I need someone to lead and direct and care for me if I don't limit myself to just a few things at once. INTJs make so much sense and it's so pleasant to read the things they say.
    Last edited by thistlechaser; 05-20-2014 at 05:43 PM. Reason: couldn't figure out bold

  5. #575
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nara View Post
    You're a 7, you just have to move to the next.
    Tis true, but if its too early it feels...wrong? It's almost like I have to wait for it to "ripen" in order to move on, even if that involves some slightly melancholy in the process.

    It is also harder cause I am in a physical place (outside the US) where it is difficult to "move on to the next" as a gay man because there are very few "nexts" here.

    Quote Originally Posted by thistlechaser View Post
    I tend to feel like I'm built like the Titanic, that I can hold about 5 compartments of water at once without sinking--and my ship is pretty unsinkable until I reach that point. Trouble is, when I'm stressed and not having enough self-reflection or down time, I can't tell if there are 2 compartments full or all, if I'm sinking or floating, if I'm even a boat and have compartments at all. I start looking to see if everyone else's compartments are full or empty to see if I can figure out what the most logical probability that mine are full is. Everything, except sitting down for a bit and doing some dishes or heaven forbid, making other things easier for myself. What do your compartments feel like?
    I love this analogy as well as your idea of visualization.

    I am always running way too fast into life, as ENFPs are stereotyped to do. I think everything is great. I have that, "everything will be fine" attitude running around the world. Eventually a compartment or two will feel up, or as I visualize it, a piece of my heart will become tired. But its ok! I still have plenty left! Unfortunately, by the time we've reached the critical point, it's too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    I don't know her exact situation, but as a 7, I think it's good to stick around for a lesson in recognizing and managing deep emotions that come with a relationship after you've failed to do so instead of just fleeing. If course if the relationship isn't working for other reasons, the 7's ability to move on is a gift.
    I agree and it comes back to what I said above as to waiting for the situation to ripen. I want to learn. If something is not good for me I've actually stayed *just* so I could learn from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by thistlechaser View Post
    Simply, it seems to me to happen in those who are close to the middle, the ENXP's, and especially those who are spatial learners. All new info has a feeling, and all shapes, colors, numbers, social interactions, theories, time periods, and measurements invoke similar feelings and are interchangeable as metaphor. Whenever I am playing with them, I pick up my shapes and move them around. I think it's a Ne thing, maybe? You have Ni, right? Maybe that's why it feels different for me.
    I've never thought about how much I visualize feelings, interactions, time, etc... I need to think about this. Thanks for the brain tease.

  6. #576
    Entertaining Cracker five sounds's Avatar
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    first off, i just need to join the chorus of ENFPs who relate to this titanic compartment imagery @thistlechaser so beautifully constructed. it seems like you're a fairly new member, and i just want to say, i already appreciate your presence and contribution here.

    *hopes she has a few spare compartments in there*

    Quote Originally Posted by Malkavia View Post
    I agree and it comes back to what I said above as to waiting for the situation to ripen. I want to learn. If something is not good for me I've actually stayed *just* so I could learn from it.
    malkavia, i know exactly what you mean. and this is where we have to take a look at the cost/benefit breakdown of the situation we're in. i love how you're using the term 'ripen' here. letting something run its natural course, allowing things that are growing and developing to come to be, is a philosophy that i very much believe in. IF (major if) the situation in its present state is beneficial to you as well. i relate all too well to staying in a bad situation only to learn from it, and of course, there are plenty of learning opportunities and rough parts in situations that are still 'good'. you seem wise, and i really think you have a good handle on your strengths and weaknesses and what they mean for you in relationships.

    also, i realized i addressed you with a female pronoun before i knew you were male. sorry, malk. gender can be hard to determine on here.
    You hem me in -- behind and before;
    you have laid your hand upon me.
    Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
    too lofty for me to attain.

  7. #577
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    malkavia, i know exactly what you mean. and this is where we have to take a look at the cost/benefit breakdown of the situation we're in. i love how you're using the term 'ripen' here. letting something run its natural course, allowing things that are growing and developing to come to be, is a philosophy that i very much believe in. IF (major if) the situation in its present state is beneficial to you as well. i relate all too well to staying in a bad situation only to learn from it, and of course, there are plenty of learning opportunities and rough parts in situations that are still 'good'. you seem wise, and i really think you have a good handle on your strengths and weaknesses and what they mean for you in relationships.

    also, i realized i addressed you with a female pronoun before i knew you were male. sorry, malk. gender can be hard to determine on here.
    No worries on the gender thing. I don't really mind and have had plenty of trouble with users on here as well. That's why I didn't say anything (but I might have slipped in gay *man* just to let everyone know. )

    And yes, I think it is a common ENFP view and something that can be quite healthy for ENFPs if we do it correctly.

    I wrote a story to some friends a couple of days ago about a (slightly dramatic) personal crisis I had. In the end, it was a good thing. I learned a lot from it. I actually end up looking at those times fondly. I'm always better off for them.

    I wish we still had blogs on here (I don't like the new system) or I'd update my old one.

  8. #578

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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlechaser View Post
    I tend to feel like I'm built like the Titanic, that I can hold about 5 compartments of water at once without sinking--and my ship is pretty unsinkable until I reach that point. Trouble is, when I'm stressed and not having enough self-reflection or down time, I can't tell if there are 2 compartments full or all, if I'm sinking or floating, if I'm even a boat and have compartments at all. I start looking to see if everyone else's compartments are full or empty to see if I can figure out what the most logical probability that mine are full is. Everything, except sitting down for a bit and doing some dishes or heaven forbid, making other things easier for myself. What do your compartments feel like?
    I'm really sad that I don't "get" this at all. If everyone didn't chime in about how relatable this was, I'd assume you were just making stuff up.

    I don't think visually/spatially at all, so maybe that's why.

  9. #579
    Senior Member Nara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkavia View Post
    Tis true, but if its too early it feels...wrong? It's almost like I have to wait for it to "ripen" in order to move on, even if that involves some slightly melancholy in the process.

    It is also harder cause I am in a physical place (outside the US) where it is difficult to "move on to the next" as a gay man because there are very few "nexts" here.

    I agree and it comes back to what I said above as to waiting for the situation to ripen. I want to learn. If something is not good for me I've actually stayed *just* so I could learn from it.
    You're right. And so you already know it doesn't make sense to compartimentalize, don't you ? Emotions always win, so it's better to let them go as they please, if you learn to take them for what they are.
    It's this desire to reach a securizing detachment that leads nowhere, because it gives you the illusion to control, while you're still a weak slave of your emotions ...

    It's just that now I can see very fastly the things which won't work, I know intuitively the relationship won't be right for me (or us) even if we're already attached to each other, so my cerebral part makes me quit but then the heart wants to fulfill what's missing with his own fantasies and idealisation.
    So, I think you're right because it's far better to wait and see and, in any case, to live the things fully, even if it includes the risk to suffer a bit.
    We are resourceful and more resilient than most other types.

  10. #580
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thistlechaser View Post
    It seems to me like your ideas feel very separate already. That not much of anything relates to anything else, and it all feels pretty meaningless most of the time
    It all relates; it isn't meaningless. It's just difficult to articulate.

    Bear with me, I'm going to try something completely new and never tried before and see what results we get. I'm going to read the profile for INTJ again and see what pops out at me and write it in bold. We'll see how effective this method is for those-like-you things.
    Ni -Te feels lonely and quiet. Quiet, interspersed with the occasional memories and confusion. There's a feeling that things outside of self are already known before examining them, and everything is apparent and easy to understand. But the self, inside...that is not. There are single desires that are very loud, but then just as quickly, very mutable. Structures make sense, but what is the meaning?
    This is very apt.

    Ah it's the Ne-Fi that's giving me the ability to maneuver through myself. Your Fi is far down and makes it difficult to figure out what means what and the lack of Ne leaves you with only a few things floating around in your mind at any given moment to be able to compare your current thoughts to.
    No, it just isn't extroverted. It's Ni-Fi instead of Ne-Fi.

    Would you care for a taste of Ni-Fi? Look here: Tao Te Ching

    1

    The tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things.


    Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
    Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

    Yet mystery and manifestations
    arise from the same source.
    This source is called darkness.

    Darkness within darkness.
    The gateway to all understanding.

    11

    We join spokes together in a wheel,
    but it is the center hole
    that makes the wagon move.

    We shape clay into a pot,
    but it is the emptiness inside
    that holds whatever we want.

    We hammer wood for a house,
    but it is the inner space
    that makes it livable.

    We work with being,
    but non-being is what we use.


    12

    Colors blind the eye.
    Sounds deafen the ear.
    Flavors numb the taste.
    Thoughts weaken the mind.
    Desires wither the heart.

    The Master observes the world
    but trusts his inner vision.

    He allows things to come and go.
    His heart is open as the sky.

    15

    The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
    Their wisdom was unfathomable.
    There is no way to describe it;
    all we can describe is their appearance.

    They were careful
    as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
    Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
    Courteous as a guest.
    Fluid as melting ice.
    Shapable as a block of wood.
    Receptive as a valley.
    Clear as a glass of water.

    Do you have the patience to wait
    till your mud settles and the water is clear?
    Can you remain unmoving
    till the right action arises by itself?


    The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
    Not seeking, not expecting,
    she is present, and can welcome all things.
    Te is a comfortable place. When things make sense, everything is comfortable. When systems work according to planned and there is no clutter, all of that space is very comforting. Slowly, there will rise colors and passions into the muted whiteness. I saw whiteness now, because I think I misinterpreted what color the inside of your consciousness is. It's white, like a blank sheet of paper.
    This is true when younger.

    Maybe it's not focused anywhere. Maybe that's the point of Ni. I had always assumed that it's direction is focused inward, but it could just be a blank piece of paper where the Te makes the structures and the Fi informs the meaning.
    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. Good insight.

    It's doing not-doing. Another way to put it is that it's just a way of looking at the world, where that which is not obvious to most people is obvious to oneself, but the price one pays for such insight is that that which is obvious to most people isn't obvious to oneself.

    I have a friend who is an INTJ who when he isn't at work, smokes weed, drinks, and builds things in minecraft all day, punctuated by a lot of whiny rants on facebook about whichever political thing he's pissed off about that particular day, and I never can figure out what exactly he's railing against because if he'd just go out and take in new insights, make new connections, he'd get out of his rut.
    INFPs are good for INTJs like that. You guys don't tell us what to think, you ask questions, and the questions that you ask are the answers.

    I'm serious. Remember Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? The answer is 42. The answer is useless. You need the right question! You guys ask the right questions.

    I have an ENTJ friend who always seems to find the simplest answers to my most perplexing of life's interpersonal problems--when in doubt, cut it out.
    This works most of the time, but once in a while you end up saying, "WTF!" when it doesn't work out, and the ENTJ is like, "I didn't say there weren't any risks."

    The Ni dominance of the INTJ must feel like a very ordered mental space where very little new goes on inside until something activates the desire to solve a problem.
    Sorta-kinda.

    It isn't ordered. It's just that the conclusions are always ordered. Ni is always synthesizing things, putting ideas together to come up with new ideas. The new ideas are never wholly original, but they're great shortcuts to get to the next new idea.

    Understanding Ni as being oriented around "solving problems" is essential. Ni (INTJ or INFJ) is the quintessential troubleshooter.

    My Te is tertiary,
    Your inferior, as an INFP. Oh, wait, now you're xNFP? OK, maybe ENFP is correct.

    I like to think I'm very logical and it's funny that the things I say to you through my Te lens seem garbled to you. You are more proficient with Te, so you see the static surrounding my Te. You have my Fi, as well, so you can check for meaning just as I can, but my world is a bit more vibrant and radiating with meaning than yours--my space inside is very cluttered, very disorderly.
    Actually, NFP Te works great. The only problem you guys have with Te is that you HATE (with your Fi) what it tells you to do. If you are flustered because you have 20 obligations but can only meet 5 of them, Te tells you to prioritize, while Fi tells you that all of them are important. In my experience, it isn't clutter in the NFP mind, it's just a reluctance to admit trade-offs. Fi wants its cake and to eat it, too.

    **Your space and comfort inside are calming, Ni seems to need a lot of quiet and space to activate itself. Ni gives space for the Te and Fi to dance together, little wisps of color against the blank page. Te is always active, always seeing the "right" way, the obvious answer, and Ni gives it all the space it needs to operate, nudging it subtly towards this thing or that thing, but always in the background, the unspoken hero."
    My INTJ grandmother died a year or so back at the age of 101. When speaking to guests in her hostess mode, she would say things like, "If you need anything, please tell me. I can show you how you can do without it."

    I envy your mind. Your simplicity and calmness. To have a day where my head isn't jumbled up with 50 things all the time. To be able to spend my time focused primarily on the puzzles and patterns I love so much, it fills me with yearning. I may be able to draw connections between one thing and 50 million other things, but it's difficult for me to have original thoughts and solutions in all this mess. I need someone to lead and direct and care for me if I don't limit myself to just a few things at once. INTJs make so much sense and it's so pleasant to read the things they say.
    As per quoting my grandmother above, the simplicity comes from accepting the obvious and working from there. As long as you're working from truth, your conclusions will be simple (if not easy). If you're working from desires, your conclusions (if you reach any) will either be really complex, or simply asking for your wishes to be fulfilled without any intervening steps.

    E.g.,
    http://www.southparkstudios.com/clip...pants-business
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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