User Tag List

Page 44 of 73 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast
Results 431 to 440 of 723

Thread: Common ENFP issues

  1. #431
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    9,597

    Default

    That's a good point about detaching. I hadn't thought about it that way before. He's an intelligent and caring person. Terribly impractical though even in his personal life and I believe has always felt a bit lost and looking for acceptance (probably those feelings fueled his desire to go into counselling so that he can help other people not feel that way). Even as his friend, I can say he is absolutely frustrating at times (I think mostly due to having a preponderance of Fi values that are important to him, but make daily living somewhat laborious and him very inflexible in those respects) and I can understand how a Te dom admin (which many principals are) would be rubbed very wrong by that alone, let alone the Fi outbursts.

    I think the problem is exaccerbated by the fact that he has primarily worked in situations that do not attract a lot of steady and proactive admin: inner city or poverty stricken/isolated/dysfunctional reserve communities. Even the best of people would find themselves sucked dry rather quickly, and often they are not starting out with admin who even at the beginning are trying to change the system or be proactive. At the same time, those situations provide a larger than average population of needy students (life or death issues), a lot of judgement calls that could go wrong if politics and community members and school policy are not all balanced and taken into account, etc. There's a lot there that would trigger righteous Fi anger. Directed appropriately, I think that kind of fuel could make a big difference. I'm worried for him though, as he is being hired to co-administrate because these issues come to the forefront even more. He is not only going to be a VP, but is the resource person who will work with the most academically/behaviourally deficient kids in the school.

    EDIT: Someone asked about whether he is part of a union etc. The answer is yes. In this particular case, the school is under the umbrella of the provincial school system, which would allow him to be under the provincial teacher's union. The school however, is under local control by the native population (which is usually a dicey situation due to the factors that are influenced by living within a small community of people who are mostly interrelated. In an attempt to rush self-government, often unqualified people are put into positions they are not prepared for and they focus on minutia or want to turn a blind eye to problems involving their relatives, rather than tackling the issues at hand). The community can only be accessed by plane and has less than 1000 people in it.

    In the past, he has been in the provincial teacher's union, with the exception of one bandrun school which he was employed at for only a few months while he was still collecting his payout from the previous job.

  2. #432
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    949

    Default

    I would also say that he needs to use his ENFP strength of being able to size people up and do a reality check re: his expectations in these situations. In other words, people change incrementally... People do not turn on a dime. And, yet it sounds like he expects to go into these situations where there are already problems and people will change when he points out what they need to do. This is Fi hubris. And, I've struggled with this a lot myself. In other words, I think I'm R-ight.... with an Fi capital R. I want to help people / do a good job. So I go into a situation and steamroll other people with the "Rightness" of my opinions. The sad thing is that I very well may be right, but sometimes that isn't enough. You've got to coax people into changing. You've got to be patient with people who don't get it as quickly as you do. You've got to give people time to come around to your way of seeing things. This is where Fe has it all over Fi, I think.

    But as far as how to help M. I would say that he needs to incorporate into his Fi value system that he is a guide for people who want to change, but he cannot force it upon them before they are ready. If he really thinks through the subtle differences between inspiring people (which ENFPs are so good at doing) and guiding them, then perhaps a lot of the problems he's encountering will be ameliorated.

    ^^^^^^^^
    An inspirer, much like a prophet, stands on the sidelines and points out where people are going wrong. An inspirer/prophet also inspires people to change... but always from the sidelines. There is nothing wrong with this approach and ENFPs are naturally very good at it. But there are limits to the powers of prophesying. Think of the fate of many a prophet who winds up pissing the wrong people off and getting nailed to a cross. In contrast is a GUIDE who steps into the fray from the sidelines. A guide is practical, compromising, and most importantly patient about the foibles of the people he is trying to guide. He takes on more of a leadership by service posture in which instead of doing the telling, he does the listening. He listens to the people he is guiding and changes them incrementally through a series of conversations.

    It sounds like your friend has chosen to take on more of a prophet role than be a guide. If you can get him to really incorporate the value of being a guide into his Fi value system, then this might make him less confrontational and more likely to stick it out in whatever job is at hand.

    BTW, as to how to get him to incorporate being a guide into his value system, let me suggest that it's a matter of pointing out an Fi value that trumps the Fi value he feels is at play. For example, if he's focused on being R-ight and not compromising his Fi ethics, then you might point out that he can avoid compromising his ethics but also take into account the foibles of human nature. In other words, being patient and understanding of the people around him might be more important... or at least as important... as clinging to his R-ightness.

    Hope this helps!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  3. #433

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    From my interactions here, I realize how much like selling out that seems to a Fi user. Is there any way that you people can see (as he goes into a new situation) where he can be true to himself and still remain employed a year from now? I wish I could help him somehow, as this is very distressing to him, but he seems to be repeating the same mistakes over and over. The ironic part is that his specialty is conflict resolution! Any suggestions or perspective that would be of help, even in terms of how I look at it?
    Can he see his own pattern of behavior? Can he then analyze each situation step by step to evaluate the break points and see how this pattern repeats? (My mom is an ENFP and I note she cant seem to see her own patterns of behavior over time) It may help to have him talk through each situation out loud with another person. From there he might think about the final score card-what did he win accomplish for others and what did he losefail to accomplish for others in each situation? Did his placing of short term, knee jerk, in the moment values, over his long term goals help or hinder?

    Perhaps he didnt have long term goals in the first place, thus he was so responsive in the moment, that he did help, but could have helped more?

    I'd say have him take this new job and ask him to set global goals-What does he hope to have accomplished in six months? In one year? Perhaps have him link his goals to specific groups of children and seeing them through hardship and onto college if possible. Then in the moment, when he feels pulled to a cause, he MUST stop and reflect upon how that immediate cause weighs up against his long term global cause. Ignoring the immediate pain of others will make him hurt and depressed, but he needs to reenergize by reorienting on the global goal.

    I also notice he is tangling very strongly with authority at multiple places. Is he actually looking for authority to rebel against perhaps? It might be best if when he gets really fired up over something, that he express this frustration to a confidant, and get their perspective on the same situation.

    Also-the ability to detach from the moment, as Vala mentions would be very valuable, as to give him more options when he becomes very frustrated-perhaps meditation can help here.

  4. #434

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Even as his friend, I can say he is absolutely frustrating at times (I think mostly due to having a preponderance of Fi values that are important to him, but make daily living somewhat laborious and him very inflexible in those respects) and I can understand how a Te dom admin (which many principals are) would be rubbed very wrong by that alone, let alone the Fi outbursts.
    Oddly, when used very judiciously and for a VERY well understood cause, tert Te fueled by Fi can be a strong influencer of Te doms-but it has to be a valid cause they just didnt see. If he constantly is going off about little things, he just becomes a troublemaker.

  5. #435
    i love Array skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,836

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To me, it seems that his strong outspoken Fi results in him disregarding the final outcome (he can't do any good advocating for kids if he gets fired, and he also is making it less and less likely that he can impact people if he is unemployable because of a dodgy work record). I think his observations are definitely valid, and there's a possibility he could effect change if he were willing to work within the system and influence the leadership rather than start by outright opposition or refusal to do anything that he disagrees with.

    From my interactions here, I realize how much like selling out that seems to a Fi user. Is there any way that you people can see (as he goes into a new situation) where he can be true to himself and still remain employed a year from now? I wish I could help him somehow, as this is very distressing to him, but he seems to be repeating the same mistakes over and over. The ironic part is that his specialty is conflict resolution! Any suggestions or perspective that would be of help, even in terms of how I look at it?


    funny thing, i didn't really realize there was a problem here until you said "this is very distressing for him". not that i don't see how his pattern could get frustrating, but all of the reasons for him leaving seem totally legit to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's a good point about detaching. I hadn't thought about it that way before. He's an intelligent and caring person. Terribly impractical though even in his personal life and I believe has always felt a bit lost and looking for acceptance (probably those feelings fueled his desire to go into counselling so that he can help other people not feel that way). Even as his friend, I can say he is absolutely frustrating at times (I think mostly due to having a preponderance of Fi values that are important to him, but make daily living somewhat laborious and him very inflexible in those respects) and I can understand how a Te dom admin (which many principals are) would be rubbed very wrong by that alone, let alone the Fi outbursts.
    one of the biggest lessons that i have been learning (i would say learned, but i haven't exactly mastered it yet) from my favorite Fe doms is how sometimes you have to quell your own righteous anger and wait it out if you want to achieve the greater good. i feel like Fe dom/aux people see this automatically. i'm not sure whether it's a gift of Pi or a gift of Fe, but you can see how being stubborn in the moment closes doors further down the road. and your wording is totally spot-on - to a Fi dom/aux, who is somewhat future-blind, it feels like "selling out". but of course it's exactly what you said earlier - you see this guy fighting each individual battle, and maybe he's winning the battles, but he's not winning the war. he's shooting himself in the foot over and over again, really, even though his intentions are positive. he probably can't see that in the moment, though. Ps change our prioritization as events occur, and in the midst of a crisis, "longterm benefit of children and my career" is probably going to drop off the visible to-achieve list. what i find is that waiting is the absolute best thing i can do. i don't have to bend to what the other wants, but i don't have to attack, either. i can just be neutral and wait. it's like putting a lid on a boiling pot, but it can be done. and it's good. and then later, when i'm not in the heat of the moment, i can think more rationally.

    the other thing that occurs to me, which i don't know if he's voiced, or if he even experiences it too - but often after i'm done being really angry at a situation i'll "rehumanize" the "enemy" figures in my mind and sort of feel bad for them and wonder how they're doing and feel a bit of lingering fondness for them, because somewhere deep in my little NeFi heart i really just want to be friends with everybody. it's a recognition of counterproductivity, really - like, aw, shit, bridge burned. and i liked that river!

    what i've been finding recently is that i can get away with little Te-bursts as long as i don't push it. for example, my boss did something really unacceptably dangerous and stupid without realizing it a couple weeks ago, and i was sort of unsure how to address it. i just stopped and stared for a moment, hoping i'd catch her eye and prompt her, and sure enough i did - and i bluntly told her what was wrong. and then she was like, oh. shit. and she fixed it. and then we went back to being okay. she sort of does a lot of things like that - she's really not the most competent at her position - and it was tempting to just go off and list all the stupid things she does and what i hate about her. but, one, i don't really actually hate her, and two, i probably would not have the money to pay for the internets if i'd have done that. so if i just Te-address the problem at hand and that problem alone - no matter how much Ne wants to connect it to a bigger problem - then that's okay as long as i have a decent sense of the limits of the person i'm dealing with. and then i don't feel regret later about how i attacked that person, because all i did was objectively address the one singular problem at hand.

    i think i essentially have the same thing to say as vala, which is that learning to separate himself from the situation is going to help a huge amount. personally, i cannot do that alone. i am just not advanced enough, lol. the best i can do is shut my trap, and fume silently, and then run home and call up someone i trust, vent to them, and get their perspective on things. do i understand correctly that he's going to have a partner in his new position? if so, that could potentially be a really big help, provided he comes to trust that person. if you're willing to talk with him, too, fidelia, i imagine you'd be a huge help in those situations. not to rope you into being his own counselor or anything, but you do have the foresight gift, and maybe you could help him learn to see some for himself.

    incidentally - do you have an idea of his enneatype? that could give us another window for looking at the situation, too. i mention this cause as a 6 i am quite familiar with authority issues

  6. #436
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    9,597

    Default

    Thank you all of you! I really appreciate your perspective and I do feel that this is where those Fe-Fi threads have been of some real practical value to me.

    There are a bunch of things I would like to comment on, but am pushed for time right now. I'd like to come back in a few hours when there is more time and respond more directly.

    In answer to your question skylights, I don't know his enneatype. I'm not familiar enough with enneatypes outside 1, 2, 4, 5, and 8 to know. He doesn't seem to fit into any of those for me. He's a bit of a hippy - the kind that enjoys protests for certain causes, tries to live in a very environmentally friendly way (sometimes to the point of impracticality), and goes with the flow in some ways, while having very unmoveable ideas in others. I do wonder if there's a bit of an authority issues there. He does, as you say though "rehumanize" the person in question after. He actually bear little ill will towards any of the people who have caused him friction in the past. It's more that the issue that he cares about obcures the most effective way of achieving the outcome he is looking for, even if the issue is most definitely a valid and important one.

    I agree with you, Orobas about the Te users and Fi causes. I think his problem is that he brings up too many little things and then becomes a nuisance. Then when something really big comes up, he has already used up all their willingness to look into things and they just see him as someone they are better off without!

    I especially liked your last point, EW, as far as a practical method of dealing with guiding vs being a prophet. I think you are spot on about finding a Fi value that trumps the other Fi value to shift focus and consider method. Would you be able to give an example of a specific situation and what kind of other value would trump the old one?

    Anyway, some useful ideas here to consider. Be back in a bit with a few more questions...

  7. #437
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    949

    Default

    Fidelia, I've been trying to think of an example of a specific situation about finding an Fi value that trumps the other Fi value... This is such a subjective thing that it's hard to generalize to other people. I can only tell you that it might be helpful to sit down and talk to him about the differences between Fe and Fi. Because it sounds to me that M is in some need of some serious Fe skills. Or perhaps more accurately, he needs to gain some perspective on the weakness of the Fi position. I'd have a series of conversations* with him where I explained the entire thing to him... even if you have to start at the very beginning and explain all about MBTI, teach him about hierarchies of mental functions, and finally show him the section of the Common INFJ Issues thread where the whole Fe versus Fi thing is discussed. (Maybe the When Fe & Fi Go Awry thread and the Common ENFP Issues thread might be helpful, too.)

    [For those who may not know, there was a big discussion on the INFJ Common Issues thread about the differences between Fe/Te users versus Fi/Te users. Within the context of this forum, this was a watershed conversation that shed light on the different ways these two types think, their respective strengths and weaknesses, and how to overcome them.]

    I don't think it was until the Common Issues INFJ thread that I really understood the weaknesses of Fi (which I did in part by realizing the strengths of Fe). There was a point in that thread where I was trying to understand how Fe communicates differently than Fi and PeaceBaby summed up Fe style communication as similar to "Active Listening". It was at that moment I got it. I realized that Fi was very good at telling my inward reality (when it decided to outwardly express itself) but because it's an inwardly oriented function it's not as good at observing and listening. And, for me it was a watershed moment.

    It was also a humbling moment and if M gets it, he may experience the same feelings that I did. I really winced during my gotchya moment because I have always considered myself a great communicator able to connect easily with people in all walks of life. And while this is true, I became aware of my weaknesses when it came to communicating with people. I needed to turn my powerful Fi skills outward and start paying attention more to what other people were communicating instead of focusing on my reflexive Fi statements. I needed to realize that this didn't work so well with Fe users and I needed to increase my repertoire of communication styles if I really wanted to get through to a larger pool of people.

    In fact, let me encourage you to send him a link to this very post. Maybe as one ENFP to another we could have a bonding moment about this. (It occurs to me that your Fe-ness might be hesitant to do this, but if he's an ENFP/Fi user, I don't think he'd mind. Remember Fi users love to communicate by sharing their personal experiences. So have him read this or even have him email me. I'll pm you my email address.)





    *I'd make sure to tell him and not just recommend he read about it. As you and I have noted before, sometimes Ne dominants get so overwhelmed by details that they tend to avoid them. My experience has been that a lot of ENFPs I know love to talk about MBTI with me, but when I suggest they read up on themselves, they say they'll do it but are turned off by the walls of text they'll find in some of our posts.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  8. #438
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    949

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    what i find is that waiting is the absolute best thing i can do. i don't have to bend to what the other wants, but i don't have to attack, either. i can just be neutral and wait. it's like putting a lid on a boiling pot, but it can be done. and it's good. and then later, when i'm not in the heat of the moment, i can think more rationally.
    This is really very good I think. I believe what Skylights said above is the way a mature ENFP reacts. For myself, I've always thought of it as consciously flipping myself into Ne mode when my Fi gets all indignant. I try to switch to just taking in information (Ne) rather than deciding on the information I'm taking in (Fi). I put myself in a holding pattern and say to myself, "Drop back, regroup, and fight this battle another day." Of course, this is easier said than done, but when I do get this right, it solves a whole lot of Fi problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    the other thing that occurs to me, which i don't know if he's voiced, or if he even experiences it too - but often after i'm done being really angry at a situation i'll "rehumanize" the "enemy" figures in my mind and sort of feel bad for them and wonder how they're doing and feel a bit of lingering fondness for them, because somewhere deep in my little NeFi heart i really just want to be friends with everybody. it's a recognition of counterproductivity, really - like, aw, shit, bridge burned. and i liked that river!
    I'm not sure how this applies to M, but I've gotta tell you I laughed out loud when I read this. This is totally me!

    After the immediate confrontation is over, I have to have a cooling off period. Then I start to wax fondly over the other person... wishing I could put the bad feelings behind us... and usually reaching out to them. I think ENFPs want the world to be just one big happy family where everyone gets along; and, of course, where everyone likes the ENFP. Ha ha!
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  9. #439
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    9,597

    Default

    Hey there EW, thanks for the advice. I'll be writing to you for sure. This is one of the things I find most tricky about Fe and Fi. I've grown to understand why Fi communicates some of the things it does and that it is not for the same reasons as a Fe user does. I also am beginning to understand the mindset a little bit better through some of our long Fe-Fi threads. However, it still takes me by surprise what NFPs would consider as cruel or unkind behaviour or comments vs what I would perceive as offensive. I could say something that I consider totally innocuous and it would be felt as rather harsh and unkind. Then I hear a Fi user suggesting saying something that to my ears sounds totally brutal, and the fellow Fi user is thankful and finds it useful! I'd find it interesting at some point to start a thread about that, because while I am beginning to recognize some of which is which, I still would have a hard time distinguishing between ahead of time and certainly having the judgement to say things appropriately to Fi ears. This would be a really helpful skill to have, especially for teaching.

    You made a great point about the walls of text and ENFPs. What is it that have made some of the ENFPs choose to persist through that sort of thing to continue discussion, while others immediately are turned off and abandon the discussion because of it?

  10. #440
    Butterfly up. Array Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Bast
    Enneagram
    Nix
    Socionics
    HSP None
    Posts
    14,398

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    You made a great point about the walls of text and ENFPs. What is it that have made some of the ENFPs choose to persist through that sort of thing to continue discussion, while others immediately are turned off and abandon the discussion because of it?
    Pet peeves, passion for the subject, finding the person writing the text easy to follow as they think alike or are on the same page as you, being on a mission to crack whatever secret that lies hiddin in that wall of text, having the other person being a really funny and engaging writer that hooks you within the first couple of sentences, having structure in the text (space, paragraphs, bullet points), having the different questions be organized in paragraphs, instead of woven into the text (granted, we suck at that as well when we're stream of consciousnessing ), and so on
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Be careful what you believe, because that is the world you'll create - Cassie Nightingale

Page 44 of 73 FirstFirst ... 34424344454654 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. [INFJ] Common INFJ issues
    By fidelia in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 682
    Last Post: 03-06-2017, 02:46 PM
  2. [ISFP] Common ISFP Issues
    By highlander in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 02-28-2017, 10:56 AM
  3. [INFP] Common INFP Issues
    By Seymour in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 388
    Last Post: 02-18-2017, 06:55 AM
  4. [INTJ] Common INTJ Issues
    By highlander in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 309
    Last Post: 01-06-2017, 06:29 PM
  5. [ENFJ] Common ENFJ Issues
    By Domino in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 206
    Last Post: 01-03-2017, 03:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •