[ENFP] Common ENFP issues

[Starry]

This represents sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation. Just because I said it that doesn't mean that I will stand by this opninion and that this is my final answer. This is thinking out loud until proven otherwise. Since what I said is simply verbalisation of what facts suggest in my head. What is why I bacame pseudo INTJ because my family couldn't deal with the constant judgements.

I said something that simply represents what I tend to think or suggest, but I never claimed that this is final truth or the word of God. Because as a Te dom you are the one with the plan and the one that will/should build the structure. Therefore with this you simply signal everybody how far we went as a group and what is bottom line at this point. Fe dom would perhaps try to run from the holes in the system but real Te dom would know that this is unsustanable on the long run. (in my opinion)

As I said few lines before, this is simply how it looks to me (the most probable conclusion), I never said there are no alternatives. On the other hand you are process oriented instead of goal oriented and you don't "publish" anything until you are certain. (especially because you claim to be fear type) Since you have uncomfort with conclusions and you see than as something to be avoided. When you are building Nuclear power plant this is reasonable but in most real life situations it isn't. Talk may be cheap but it isn't forbidden.

VG, I really enjoy discussing things with you and know that I could learn a shitload from you about the world, etc. <-I mean, I'm not the best at expressing these kinds of sentiments in spite of being a bleeding heart/feeler and so I hope you are able to sense that I truly mean that. Again, I think there are many things that I don't know or am misinformed on that you could correct and/or enlighten me on. The above though...

Like, I'm not attached to being right. That's not why I'm here. Perhaps I don't communicate in the nicest of ways and so it appears like I'm just trying to be corrective or something for sport or image or whathaveyou... No. I'm here because I think you are a great person that has a lot to offer another human being in a relationship...not even an FP...I'm just using FP as a way to discuss what is a more general issue. From what I gather about you...you would ultimately like to end-up in a partnership. And my overall message is...I believe there is something with regards to your thinking that is causing you to arrive at a variety of different "temporary conclusions" that will make fulfilling that goal challenging for you. These assumptions...or temporary conclusions that you announce to the group...I could see this method as working decently I suppose if you were leading an army into battle or trying to make a lot of money perhaps. But if interpersonal relationships are the order of the day...then I'm hoping you can take a step back and call on some different strategies. If interpersonal relationships aren't important...then keep on truckin.

Just out of curiosity...what caused you to arrive at a check-point conclusion that you announce to the group/assume...that I didn't already completely understand all of what you just told me I didn't? Like, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Above you temporarily decided I was merely expressing a "sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation"...and then move forward (you are acting on these temporary opinions/conclusions which was my expressed concern prior to you just doing it again) by telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I already knew and had taken into consideration just before saying exactly what I said. Do you see how this kind of response might be...not just insulting but downright bizarre for people wanting to establish a relationship with you? Perhaps here it would only be ENFPs that suffer...I don't know. So I'm asking...what caused you to "temporarily conclude and act" or assume I didn't already get all of this?

This is too Fi like question for me to give simple answer. I want what I consider accurate and best in the current situation. Because what wins you situations isn't quality or quantity, but ratio between quality and quantity that is deployed well under the circumstances. You can have incredible grasp of the facts but if you are in the wrong place in the wrong time this may not matter at all.

But ot be honest I am not sure what you are trully asking me. (English isn't my first langauge)

I'm not sure why you announced and acted on a temporary opinion that my question was born of Fi (I was trying to create a very black and white question but most likely failed)...but I can see how it would be too broad to give a simple answer. I'm thinking if you address what I just wrote there's no need for me to break things down here.

To tell you the truth I used to be like you, gathering little pieces of information, creating constructes, reading a few books a day etc. Since I was tought this is a good thing.
However through messiness of life I have realized that this isn't really a living, living is going out there and making a difference, remaking the situations, spreading the information etc.

Above...are you arriving at a temporary opinion and then expressing it as if it were true that a small pleasure I have in life interferes with me going out there and making a difference?

I suppose it is reasonable, but on the other hand it can be very alienating if people think that you should be someone else.

I don't think people want you to be someone else. If they did you wouldn't have attracted them in the first place. I think people don't always know how to initiate engagement with others and at times stupid things happen.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Just out of curiosity...what caused you to arrive at a check-point conclusion that you announce to the group/assume...that I didn't already completely understand all of what you just told me I didn't? Like, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Above you temporarily decided I was merely expressing a "sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation"...and then move forward (you are acting on these temporary opinions/conclusions which was my expressed concern prior to you just doing it again) by telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I already knew and had taken into consideration just before saying exactly what I said. Do you see how this kind of response might be...not just insulting but downright bizarre for people wanting to establish a relationship with you? Perhaps here it would only be ENFPs that suffer...I don't know. So I'm asking...what caused you to "temporarily conclude and act" or assume I didn't already get all of this?

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

Interesting here. Now, I have not followed yours and VG's back and forth. I have only read the post I took this out of but this is by far, the most difficult thing for me, personally, that I have dealt with in dealing with Fi. Meaning: I should not assume the Fi person does not understand simply because they aren't communicating it in a way in which I receive feedback.

I also recognize how similar it is to Ti process. In that, the other party needs this "master key" of assumption that understanding is understood (Fi) or knows what the correct question to ask (Ti) in order to get proper communication.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

Interesting here. Now, I have not followed yours and VG's back and forth. I have only read the post I took this out of but this is by far, the most difficult thing for me, personally, that I have dealt with in dealing with Fi. Meaning: I should not assume the Fi person does not understand simply because they aren't communicating it in a way in which I receive feedback.

I also recognize how similar it is to Ti process. In that, the other party needs this "master key" of assumption that understanding is understood (Fi) or knows what the correct question to ask (Ti) in order to get proper communication.

We all arrive at "temporary understandings" of people, places, things, events, exchanges...this is how we fumble our way through interpersonal relationships and life. Fi not only gets this...we are right there alongside everyone else doing the same. It's what the person does with that assumption that Fi responds well or extremely poorly to.

I don't have a problem with someone arriving at a temporary conclusion that I don't understand something that is being expressed. I mean, I'm sure you and everyone else can relate to the thought... "damn, how dumb does this person think I am?" But in general...even without theories like Typology to account for a lot of it...I get that we all communicate differently and when you add to that things like...distractions, mood, bias, etc. misunderstandings and miscommunication are going to be happening. It would have to have been an exceptional situation for me to "lose sleep" over someone merely assuming I didn't understand something. I'm also rarely bothered by people assuming I didn't or don't understand...so that they take to kindly explaining.

The 'temporary conclusion/assumption' model that I already know you subscribe to is the ideal in my opinion...not just for the benefit of human relationships and the respectful treatment of others but for relative accuracy. If you assumed something about me during a discussion...you would ask me about it...and weigh my response when coming to a final conclusion. <-Fi likes.

What I'm seeing out of VG and others..."temporary conclusion" without the request for clarification...and then action. I mean, I understand what VG is saying that the opinion/assumption is temporary...but I don't quite see how that matters when action is still being taken on it. The damage is still being done. This is what makes Fi crazy. In that passage you quoted...VG temporarily concluded or temporarily arrived at the opinion I didn't understand all of what I had already considered prior to asking him those very questions. Instead of inquiring with regards to clarification...he went on to assign his temporary conclusion to 'stereotypical NFP mistakes' when no mistake had actually been made. And so he will have to forgive me if I am not confident in his understanding of 'stereotypical NFP mistakes' due to all that has come before. This may all be okay for him and his fumbling through life... but it is hurtful to others (edit: and i'm not talking hurtful as in *feelings* as I sense that temporary opinion comin on. hurtful to others as in mislabeling, reputation, etc.) and increases problems in general in my opinion.

 

[Virtual ghost]

VG, I really enjoy discussing things with you and know that I could learn a shitload from you about the world, etc. <-I mean, I'm not the best at expressing these kinds of sentiments in spite of being a bleeding heart/feeler and so I hope you are able to sense that I truly mean that. Again, I think there are many things that I don't know or am misinformed on that you could correct and/or enlighten me on. The above though...

Like, I'm not attached to being right. That's not why I'm here. Perhaps I don't communicate in the nicest of ways and so it appears like I'm just trying to be corrective or something for sport or image or whathaveyou... No. I'm here because I think you are a great person that has a lot to offer another human being in a relationship...not even an FP...I'm just using FP as a way to discuss what is a more general issue. From what I gather about you...you would ultimately like to end-up in a partnership. And my overall message is...I believe there is something with regards to your thinking that is causing you to arrive at a variety of different "temporary conclusions" that will make fulfilling that goal challenging for you. These assumptions...or temporary conclusions that you announce to the group...I could see this method as working decently I suppose if you were leading an army into battle or trying to make a lot of money perhaps. But if interpersonal relationships are the order of the day...then I'm hoping you can take a step back and call on some different strategies. If interpersonal relationships aren't important...then keep on truckin.

I am unsure what to say since I was being systematically cut off from the interpersonal relationships. I never had a GF, I don't have a brother, sister or even cousin, I never had a pet, my parents had to work most of the time, I have lost many of good friends due to various circumstances, I was even the only student in the class at one point .... etc. I have a problem with relationships and I am not hidding that, I am simply lacking experience. I often don't know what to do or what to say that it sounds nice.

Just out of curiosity...what caused you to arrive at a check-point conclusion that you announce to the group/assume...that I didn't already completely understand all of what you just told me I didn't? Like, this is precisely what I'm talking about. Above you temporarily decided I was merely expressing a "sterotypical NFP mistake in interpretation"...and then move forward (you are acting on these temporary opinions/conclusions which was my expressed concern prior to you just doing it again) by telling me a whole bunch of stuff that I already knew and had taken into consideration just before saying exactly what I said. Do you see how this kind of response might be...not just insulting but downright bizarre for people wanting to establish a relationship with you? Perhaps here it would only be ENFPs that suffer...I don't know. So I'm asking...what caused you to "temporarily conclude and act" or assume I didn't already get all of this?

Well, English isn't my first language so I probably make holes in my expression and to be honest I am losing myself in your words. Sometimes I even have to read a few times your text to understand what you were perhaps trying to say. The thing is that I am naturally blunt and do what I consider ok in the situation, however if you are going to search for consistency in my every word then you will probably get confused. Since I am not emotionally too consistent man, especially if I am half confused by entire conversation.

Above...are you arriving at a temporary opinion and then expressing it as if it were true that a small pleasure I have in life interferes with me going out there and making a difference?

Perhaps to some degree, but I am mostly dealing with myself there. The point was that I used to be more similar to you as I was younger. (at least that is my impression)

I don't think people want you to be someone else. If they did you wouldn't have attracted them in the first place. I think people don't always know how to initiate engagement with others and at times stupid things happen.

Well it was only temporary and I never met those people again. However my own parents can make a parody of me in order to prove some random point that is in their head. In general everybody thinks I am too serious.

 

[Starry]

I am unsure what to say since I was being systematically cut off from the interpersonal relationships. I never had a GF, I don't have a brother, sister or even cousin, I never had a pet, my parents had to work most of the time, I have lost many of good friends due to various circumstances, I was even the only student in the class at one point .... etc. I have a problem with relationships and I am not hidding that, I am simply lacking experience. I often don't know what to do or what to say that it sounds nice.

Yah, this is what I find so special/amazing about you in a very *realism* type way... How evolved and not bitter and human and whole you are in spite of your experiences. And just so you know this isn't a "temporary opinion that is subject to change". (I'm also dictating reality because it is okay when I do it.) No, I'm just kinda adamant about what I'm saying in this instance.

I hope in this ^instance you assume that I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yah, this is what I find so special/amazing about you in a very *realism* type way... How evolved and not bitter and human and whole you are in spite of your experiences. And just so you know this isn't a "temporary opinion that is subject to change". (I'm also dictating reality because it is okay when I do it.) No, I'm just kinda adamant about what I'm saying in this instance.

I hope in this ^instance you assume that I know what I'm talking about.

My past is what it is so it is reasonable that your opinion is static as well.

I guess that this is a good time to say "what doesn't get you killed makes you stronger". In this situation this trully may be the case.
In a way it is quite simple, you build a shell and you go through all of this as if nothing happens.


Here is my variant test back from the day when I came to this forum searching for answers.

Sexual |||||| 14%
Social |||||| 18%
Self Preservation |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%

 

[Starry]

My past is what it is so it is reasonable that your opinion is static as well.

I guess that this is a good time to say "what doesn't get you killed makes you stronger". In this situation this trully may be the case.
In a way it is quite simple, you build a shell and you go through all of this as if nothing happens.


Here is my variant test back from the day when I came to this forum searching for answers.

Sexual |||||| 14%
Social |||||| 18%
Self Preservation |||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 90%

Ha! I was in a bad way when I first came here looking for answers and my SP results were super high as well. And yet when I would read the descriptions I would think..."ahhhh?" Yah, what you shared reinforces all that I came to believe. (having gone through a confusing end to a relationship I was also testing as e4 which in spite of having a lot of 4 influence still seemed off as well.)


It's interesting to me that such a decent sized handful of the TJs on this site actually believe they know ENFPs better than ENFPs (NFPs better than NFPs). Like, I can't even imagine going through life with that degree of arrogance. What I described with regards to 'sensitivity to criticism' vs 'sensitivity to forced reality by conceited people who actually think they know better than you' has been spelled out many times on this site by a variety of NFPs over the years...and I've still got chubber telling me I'm wrong...I've got ceecee making a distinction based on 2 friends of "mature ENFPs" which I've seen her do before are you fucking kidding me? Someday I'll share how old I am and how long I've been doing this..."mature ENFPs" please. MBTI has been around for some time now and is the only personality theory that has relative credibility and reception in the scientific and social scientific communities. It has been tested fairly extensively considering...due to the fact it is has a great deal of application in private industry (it makes money). If age, development and health changed the way a type responded and expressed that significantly there would be work/research/studies/journal articles on that. But ceecee knows better.

But yah, I couldn't even begin to imagine correcting a xxTJ with regards to TJs in a TJ thread. I have to come back... edit: just please don't be that way VG.

 

[Amargith]

Qualifiers and benefit of the doubt, people.

It goes a long way.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ha! I was in a bad way when I first came here looking for answers and my SP results were super high as well. And yet when I would read the descriptions I would think..."ahhhh?" Yah, what you shared reinforces all that I came to believe. (having gone through a confusing end to a relationship I was also testing as e4 which in spite of having a lot of 4 influence still seemed off as well.)


It's interesting to me that such a decent sized handful of the TJs on this site actually believe they know ENFPs better than ENFPs (NFPs better than NFPs). Like, I can't even imagine going through life with that degree of arrogance. What I described with regards to 'sensitivity to criticism' vs 'sensitivity to forced reality by conceited people who actually think they know better than you' has been spelled out many times on this site by a variety of NFPs over the years...and I've still got chubber telling me I'm wrong...I've got ceecee making a distinction based on 2 friends of "mature ENFPs" which I've seen her do before are you fucking kidding me? Someday I'll share how old I am and how long I've been doing this..."mature ENFPs" please. MBTI has been around for some time now and is the only personality theory that has relative credibility and reception in the scientific and social scientific communities. It has been tested fairly extensively considering...due to the fact it is has a great deal of application in private industry (it makes money). If age, development and health changed the way a type responded and expressed that significantly there would be work/research/studies/journal articles on that. But ceecee knows better.

But yah, I couldn't even begin to imagine correcting a xxTJ with regards to TJs in a TJ thread. I have to come back... edit: just please don't be that way VG.

What you see as arrogance someone else would see as honesty, efficency focus, determination, etc. I don't think they claim to know you that well as much as they show how far you are from their expectations or what they see as reasonable. I admit, sometimes NFP logic doesn't make much sense to me to the point that the person seems delusional or it lies to hide blame or guilt.

Qualifiers and benefit of the doubt, people.

It goes a long way.

Aren't you big fan of pushing people's buttons ?

 

[Amargith]

What you see as arrogance someone else would see as honesty, efficency focus, determination, etc. I don't think they claim to know you that well as much as they show how far you are from their expectations or what they see as reasonable. I admit, sometimes NFP logic doesn't make much sense to me to the point that the person seems delusional or it lies to hide blame or guilt.


Aren't you big fan of pushing people's buttons ?

Grin. Yes - but only with their consent, and only in a pleasant way, for both of us. I like people to be in on the joke. When they're unaware that I'm doing it, it usually is a button pushing that they don't notice and will not be negatively affected by in any way. Most of the time, tbh, I just observe. People do plenty crazy shit on their own to study without your interference.

Also, I'm an even bigger fan of eradicating misunderstandings (and conflict that comes from it), streamlining, optimising and generally making communication clear and efficient.



Look, VG..you're a fan of efficiency, aren't you? What Starry is trying to tell you is that our perceptions may get shared by other NTJs, but they're not necessarily correctly interpreted by you and therefore will fuck up efficient communication between you and ENFPs. Qualifiers and asking questions for confirmation on your perceptions and *believing* them/ taking their word for it/giving them the benefit of the doubt when they tell you that those interpretations of your perceptions are in fact incorrect is a great way to start rectifying that efficiency problem in communication

One way to do that is to use words like 'seems', 'imho', 'comes off as', etc, instead of absolute statements (aka, 'you are', 'this proves that', and so on) - > qualifiers. Rephrasing your absolute statements as questions, is another. Ask for confirmation and be open to being wrong.

That's what I *think* (see what I did there ) [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] is getting at.


Assumptions tend to be the death of efficient communication, ime. Not to mention, it's just fucking lazy at best, and, well..potentially harmful at worst.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Look, VG..you're a fan of efficiency, aren't you? What Starry is trying to tell you is that our perceptions may get shared by other NTJs, but they're not necessarily correctly interpreted by you and therefore will fuck up efficient communication between you and ENFPs. Qualifiers and asking questions for confirmation on your perceptions and *believing* them/ taking their word for it/giving them the benefit of the doubt when they tell you that those interpretations of your perceptions are in fact incorrect is a great way to start rectifying that efficiency problem in communication

One way to do that is to use words like 'seems', 'imho', 'comes off as', etc, instead of absolute statements (aka, 'you are', 'this proves that', and so on) - > qualifiers. Rephrasing your absolute statements as questions, is another. Ask for confirmation and be open to being wrong. Assumptions tend to be the death of efficient communication, ime. That's what I *think* (see what I did there ) [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] is getting at.

My biggest problems with NFPs are practical ones not verbal one. Stuff like: "We said in 2 PM while now it is 4 PM ... and still nothing is happening" type of thing. These are simply my experinces and others attack those NFPs for this more than I do.



On the other hand this is why I like to keep distance from feelers in general, since talking to them often feels as a chore. Because there are so many rules and they often go searching for the emotion in the message ... and therefrore ignore the actual message. There are many people who are publically prised constantly for their verbal skills and I think they are actually pretty bad communicators, since they seem fake, their factual correctness is questionable, they are trying to please people but in the end lose the point, etc. I know fairly well what is "efficient communication" since I am being lectured on this my entire life, but none the less I think that in many cases this is actually "inefficient communication". Because it often fails at data transfer and it tends to manipulate people. Just because all the cool kids are doing it that doesn't make it right. I want conclusions and if conversations is full of "it seems, maybe if, thank you etc." then I will probably start to lose interest quickly. You shouldn't be the obvious jerk to people but you should be able to ask for info without getting it with all the stuff that only cloud the point.

We already had this conversation btw.

 

[Amargith]

My biggest problems with NFPs are practical ones not verbal one. Stuff like: "We said in 2 PM while now it is 4 PM ... and still nothing is happening" type of thing. These are simply my experinces and others attack those NFPs for this more than I do.



On the other hand this is why I like to keep distance from feelers in general, since talking to them often feels as a chore. Because there are so many rules and they often go searching for the emotion in the message ... and therefrore ignore the actual message. There are many people who are publically prised constantly for their verbal skills and I think they are actually pretty bad communicators, since they seem fake, their factual correctness is questionable, they are trying to please people but in the end lose the point, etc. I know fairly well what is "efficient communication" since I am being lectured on this my entire life, but none the less I think that in many cases this is actually "inefficient communication". Because it often fails at data transfer and it tends to manipulate people. Just because all the cool kids are doing it that doesn't make it right. I want conclusions and if conversations is full of "it seems, maybe if, thank you etc." then I will probably start to lose interest quickly. You shouldn't be the obvious jerk to people but you should be able to ask for info without getting it with all the stuff that only cloud the point.

We already had this conversation btw.

I'm aware - I figured Id try a different angle

Look, I'm not disagreeing with you, but those qualifier words can work really well when you're not actually sure of something/aren't capable of being sure about something. And it tends to work wonders when discussing people because people tend to be so complex - it's easy to miss important pieces of info that way. Im all for blunt, straightforward communication on external shit that needs doing though. We do share that Te preference, ya know

 

[Starry]

What you see as arrogance someone else would see as honesty, efficency focus, determination, etc. I don't think they claim to know you that well as much as they show how far you are from their expectations or what they see as reasonable. I admit, sometimes NFP logic doesn't make much sense to me to the point that the person seems delusional or it lies to hide blame or guilt.

^^I appreciate the phrasing of the bolded very much - thank you. And I understand due to the fact some of what I'm attempting to describe is difficult for me to access and put words to so I can only imagine what your experience is. I just appreciate you hanging in there. I mean, the primary reason I started this whole thing is because I saw you saying again something along the lines of "NFPs don't like all these aspects of your personality...criticism, aggressiveness, etc" (this is where I got 'lame personality')...and yet I know that is completely wrong. Obviously, I don't speak for every ENFP...but I can say with a high degree of confidence...that you have a fantastic personality that most ENFPs would adore. I'm trying to tell you that it's not your criticism...it is how you are criticizing. Like, I'm trying to get you to see that what you are doing is not some inherent thing embedded deep in the recesses of your personality that you could never alter...no, there's an easy fix (you just did it above no problem and it doesn't appear like your entire being was compromised or anything in doing it.) I'm telling you this because you are wrong in your understanding of us. I'm telling you this because I don't like you thinking it is you and not what is merely in my opinion a bad habit. And I'm telling you this because I think it would improve your interactions with many people...not just NFPs. And I'm telling you this because you are a great person and are worth my time even if you decide I am delusional.

I've considered going back through the NFP threads to find how members who came before me described the same thing because I do know I'm not always the best at describing things. I've also considered calling on an INFP to explain it since they are better at this than I am. [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] can you explain why we are not sensitive to criticism but rather sensitive to others forcing their version of reality on us...insisting they are right?

I don't see what you're referring to as honesty (and by the way I get in trouble each and every day for how blunt/honest I am)...because when we are honest with ourselves we know we are not always...even if it is on a temporary basis...right. What you are calling honesty appears to lead to the most wrong.






Aren't you big fan of pushing people's buttons ?[/QUOTE]

 

[Starry]

Whoops...what Amargith said.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I've considered going back through the NFP threads to find how members who came before me described the same thing because I do know I'm not always the best at describing things. I've also considered calling on an INFP to explain it since they are better at this than I am. [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] can you explain why we are not sensitive to criticism but rather sensitive to others forcing their version of reality on us...insisting they are right?

I haven't seen this conversation until now and only just skimmed it.

I'm happy to participate, but I haven't identified a clear topic yet other than "NFPs annoy someone".

So regarding this question....I may be interpreting it incorrectly, given I am not totally clear on the context.

But here goes... [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]

Criticism often stems from someone feeling someone else is wrong and you need to correct them. The problem here is - is this standard you are measuring them with really objective?

The vast majority of the time, the standard is really upholding one or both of these things:
- A value you prioritise above other values.
Every action or goal you are choosing above other things. You asserting values at every moment. This is the perspective of the Feeling types. If an NFP is, say, bad at time management, it certainly may be a flaw, but it often stems from prioritizing differently. It's not personal. They aren't disrespecting other people's time intentionally or blowing off a deadline intentionally. And the decision they make is rational in the sense that they have prioritized something they consider more valuable than time.

So when you ascribe bad motive to the NFP, they are hearing that something they feel is frivolous (time) is being used to judge their entire character. And to them, this can be nonsense, because they feel that what motivates them is so much bigger than time.

An alternate approach is to not ascribe bad motive or judge character based on a difference in how you value stuff in reality. It is logical to you to take ABC steps to reach Y goal by X time, but to the NFP, something more important than Y goal was given precedence.
This means recognizing that your own actions and goals, on some level, stem from a premise of value. You have deemed it worthwhile and significant, etc. Realizing that, you have to recognize that not everyone assigns the same value to things.

- Your interpretation of reality and events therein.
The illustration of several people witnessing a crime and giving different accounts of it is applicable here. We don't all experience reality the same way. We frame things differently, and it's not just situations, but our entire life experience that creates a bigger context. Some criticism can basically assert that your interpretation is somehow THE interpretation. It is the TRUTH of reality. But it's not. We all have bias, blindspots, incomplete information, etc.

When other people don't live up to your standards, it is not necessarily deliberate defiance of objective standards or total incompetency or anything like that. They don't interpret reality the same way. Things don't mean to them what they mean to you. This obviously connects to the previous point about differences in values. This means they have different standards.

This means criticism often stems from a person's need to assert they are RIGHT. They need to feel their standards are CORRECT, because this validates their perspective and experience. It boosts their EGO. Obviously, this in itself is a perspective, and IMO, it is a common one of NFPs that your standards are not objective, but a preference.

Things are logical only if you are prioritizing a particular goal.
Imagine that someone is prioritizing something very different...now their actions are given totally different meaning, and may actually make quite a bit of sense. To do this, you have to accept there is possibly not one right way or that your value is not objectively more important; that can be threatening for some people.

Also, emotional content for Feeling types often doesn't cloud communication. Rather, it clarifies, because it signifies value. The tone of voice, the little flairs in phrasing, etc, this tells you how important something or someone is to you and why someone else should be motivated to bother with what you value. When emotional communication is done poorly, you can inadvertently send value messages you don't even intend to send. Basically, you can't assume that others will prioritize as you do, and if you want them to prioritize what you do, then you have to appeal to what they value. Rapport does this. Feeling types often value human relationships - seeing these as a fundamental aspect of human happiness and survival - and so people DO motivate others by appealing to this. It is in essence motivating others by saying, "uphold this value of mine because you value ME." That can be some manipulative stuff right there, yeah, but it's not irrational if you consider it a part of a larger system of interacting for mutual benefit. It's really a cornerstone for concepts like respect and honor and the golden rule.

So maybe you mean to just communicate facts or correct an error - nothing personal! Except someone hears "You are stupid, weak and incompetent. I don't respect you or what you value. I am RIGHT. You are WRONG and BAD."

Hearing that, someone doesn't hear an upholding of objective standards, but judgement stemming from a personal bias. You just demotivated them. The "logical" thing for them is to devalue you in return (because they experienced you as the instigator of this dynamic) and find situations and people which value their abilities and also share what they value.

That's average people too, or particularly, average NFPs. Really, really, really emotionally mature people will react less and have insight into why someone is poor at emotional messages. But most people are, of course, average.

 

[Dreamer]

I haven't seen this conversation until now and only just skimmed it.

I'm happy to participate, but I haven't identified a clear topic yet other than "NFPs annoy someone".

So regarding this question....I may be interpreting it incorrectly, given I am not totally clear on the context.

But here goes... [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION]

Criticism often stems from someone feeling someone else is wrong and you need to correct them. The problem here is - is this standard you are measuring them with really objective?

The vast majority of the time, the standard is really upholding one or both of these things:
- A value you prioritise above other values.
Every action or goal you are choosing above other things. You asserting values at every moment. This is the perspective of the Feeling types. If an NFP is, say, bad at time management, it certainly may be a flaw, but it often stems from prioritizing differently. It's not personal. They aren't disrespecting other people's time intentionally or blowing off a deadline intentionally. And the decision they make is rational in the sense that they have prioritized something they consider more valuable than time.

So when you ascribe bad motive to the NFP, they are hearing that something they feel is frivolous (time) is being used to judge their entire character. And to them, this can be nonsense, because they feel that what motivates them is so much bigger than time.

An alternate approach is to not ascribe bad motive or judge character based on a difference in how you value stuff in reality. It is logical to you to take ABC steps to reach Y goal by X time, but to the NFP, something more important than Y goal was given precedence.
This means recognizing that your own actions and goals, on some level, stem from a premise of value. You have deemed it worthwhile and significant, etc. Realizing that, you have to recognize that not everyone assigns the same value to things.

- Your interpretation of reality and events therein.
The illustration of several people witnessing a crime and giving different accounts of it is applicable here. We don't all experience reality the same way. We frame things differently, and it's not just situations, but our entire life experience that creates a bigger context. Some criticism can basically assert that your interpretation is somehow THE interpretation. It is the TRUTH of reality. But it's not. We all have bias, blindspots, incomplete information, etc.

When other people don't live up to your standards, it is not necessarily deliberate defiance of objective standards or total incompetency or anything like that. They don't interpret reality the same way. Things don't mean to them what they mean to you. This obviously connects to the previous point about differences in values. This means they have different standards.

This means criticism often stems from a person's need to assert they are RIGHT. They need to feel their standards are CORRECT, because this validates their perspective and experience. It boosts their EGO. Obviously, this in itself is a perspective, and IMO, it is a common one of NFPs that your standards are not objective, but a preference.

Things are logical only if you are prioritizing a particular goal.
Imagine that someone is prioritizing something very different...now their actions are given totally different meaning, and may actually make quite a bit of sense. To do this, you have to accept there is possibly not one right way or that your value is not objectively more important; that can be threatening for some people.

Also, emotional content for Feeling types often doesn't cloud communication. Rather, it clarifies, because it signifies value. The tone of voice, the little flairs in phrasing, etc, this tells you how important something or someone is to you and why someone else should be motivated to bother with what you value. When emotional communication is done poorly, you can inadvertently send value messages you don't even intend to send. Basically, you can't assume that others will prioritize as you do, and if you want them to prioritize what you do, then you have to appeal to what they value. Rapport does this. Feeling types often value human relationships - seeing these as a fundamental aspect of human happiness and survival - and so people DO motivate others by appealing to this. It is in essence motivating others by saying, "uphold this value of mine because you value ME." That can be some manipulative stuff right there, yeah, but it's not irrational if you consider it a part of a larger system of interacting for mutual benefit. It's really a cornerstone for concepts like respect and honor and the golden rule.

So maybe you mean to just communicate facts or correct an error - nothing personal! Except someone hears "You are stupid, weak and incompetent. I don't respect you or what you value. I am RIGHT. You are WRONG and BAD."

Hearing that, someone doesn't hear an upholding of objective standards, but judgement stemming from a personal bias. You just demotivated them. The "logical" thing for them is to devalue you in return (because they experienced you as the instigator of this dynamic) and find situations and people which value their abilities and also share what they value.

That's average people too, or particularly, average NFPs. Really, really, really emotionally mature people will react less and have insight into why someone is poor at emotional messages. But most people are, of course, average.

While I appreciate everything you have said above, the bold hit close to home for me. It's definitely been a weak spot between me and my younger INTJ brother since he viewed my scattered thought and "irrational" behavior as offenses, or this is a good one, as a sign of immaturity, when it couldn't be further from the truth. I didn't want to be late for this or that, it was just as you mentioned, my list of priorities was flipped around from his, and our communication growing up was at times tense because we saw on completely different standards.

Reading the second portion I placed in bold, is basically my life story Being the only P in a family of Js has it's difficulties.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I went through all the replies and I can say this is exactly why I often like to skip talking to NFP people. I only gave a support/explanation to Chubber in another thread and in the end I have ended in this thread with walls of texts as explanation. Therefore now I have to be the bastard that will not gave not nearly sophistcated reply because:


1. Didn't even want to come here, but my post was took from another thread and placed here. (and I was wondering what I am doing in this thread)
2. I have real life stuff to handle so I don't have the time to write walls of texts as a reply.


It is exaclty the "we want to make you understand" that I have a problem with, which is comming from desire to be accepted. What doesn't really bother me on it's own but if you know something then you shouldn't be so unsure or indirect in your communication. For years I was thinking of myself as INTJ and I was generally unhappy, while in fact being surrounded with feelers was simply choking me and made me apathic towards myself and the world. Since such people tend to have principles under which I can't function properly, especially since these specific people are generally ruining their lives and they even know it. (but they prefer to be loyal to their feelings). Also I like to be able to ask how things are going withouth always going into what everybody feels, since that is very draining to me. However we are having the conversation somewhat in the wrong dimmension since it is Sx instinct that clashes with me and NFPs simply tend to be Sx doms or they have well developed Sx instinct.

 

[Amargith]

Oh hon.. That is something you can say right of the bat. An interaction is a two way street. If this isnt a convo you want to have, its absolutely ok to tell the other thanks but no thanks.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Oh hon.. That is something you can say right of the bat. An interaction is a two way street. If this isnt a convo you want to have, its absolutely ok to tell the other thanks but no thanks.

Yeah, but why this almost always have to end with endless expansions ? Why there can't really be concrete conclusions or fundamantal shifts in direction ?

 

[Virtual ghost]

However since I ended here anyway I have actual question.



How ENFP people feel about concepts such as this one.

1w9s:
Can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible.
Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives.
Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength.
When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations.
More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet.
May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian. The rules come first no matter what.
Can be merciless or unwittingly cruel.
Often a little colorless in their personal appearance.
Plain dressers, preferring functional clothing that is appropriate to context but not flashy. The emphasis on function may extend to their general lifestyle. Practicality is highly valued.

or

1-3-5 : a rather ambitious, elitist and goal-oriented One, very hard-working and somewhat intellectually arrogant. They rarely show their feelings and therefore they usually seem cold and very self-assured. These Ones are generally well-read, well-mannered and quite intellectually refined: they like to impress others with their intelligence, wisdom and irreproachable work.
usual subtypes: social, self-preserving, 1w9
similar tritypes: 1-5-3, 3-1-5, 5-1-3
flavours: competent, intellectual, ambitious and refined

Btw. do you know anyone like me ?