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  1. #261
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    My INTJ have talked about this-recognizing that you have just hit an Fi value...The INTJ make take an utterly insane, illogical stance in a simple issue...I initially want to protest feeling as though i am being controlled, then something "clicks".

    I STFU and drop the issue and walk away-just like when an ENTP gets neurotic about something. I dont know why or what provoked the slight emo edge on the convo, but I recognize by the slight increase in emotive stress level, that it is something Fi bound. During that moment of stress is NOT the time to discuss the issue. Later in a calm, more neutral place, it can be discussed and debated regarding whose Fi value trumps the other Fi value or how we can navigate the two Fi value sets-but not in the moment.

    Often enfps will ask for time to process aka "let's talk about it later" or "everything is fine" even if they are pissy...as we know it is Fi getting all pissed about something, but recognize we will get angry if question and respond badly.

    My Fi is so flexible that I will redefine it, as my ultimate goal is love for the other, so if it is something silly, I will often pull an ENFP chameleon and adapt to their needs-but I dont think most enfps are quite like that.
    I'm going through a little Fi stress about the fact that I don't see a way around Fe/Fi conflicts. So it's easier for me to respond to Orobas than Fidelia right now. (But be assured that I read both of your responses and am considering them.)

    One of the things I immediately recognized in Orobas' response was the need to STFU and walk away. I do this based on instinct. Maybe it's another way to describe my need to throttle incoming information. Maybe it's more than just trying to prevent my Ne from becoming overstimulated. Perhaps it's about not letting my Fi overtake my response.

    I've said it before, but it bears repeating here, that I think that one of the interesting things about Orobas is that she and I share some common Fi values. This means that not only do she and I share the entire ENFP thing, but also (because our Fi values overlap) we present our ENFP-ness in a similar way.

    I was floored when I read what Orobas had said about incorporating logic into her Fi values. I consciously and pre-meditatedly do this, too. Not only was I raised to value logic and empiricism by my INTJ mother and ENTP father... But also, I was trained in college to detach and examine the world from an empirical/deductive perspective.

    So thanks for pointing out the need to STFU as a critical life skill for ENFPs. I think you're very right.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #262
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Hee hee, Esoteric, I'm actually ENFP but I guess I'm in the minority in the forum (so far?) of ENFPs who don't have an issue with Fe.

    I think when you have violated an Fi's values there are 2 ways to go about it the aftermath.

    1) Let the Fi user simmer down. It's like with anyone who gets very upset regardless of their type, sometimes you just need to let them calm down before approaching them again. For an Fi dom/aux, this might take a looooong time. L.O.L.

    2) Get Fi user to try to see it from the other person's POV. I have found this is the best way to go about it. And also, very clearly but in a 'soft-edged' way tell the Fi user how ridiculous their stance is. I usually use humor or gentle nudges. Or if that's pointless or hasn't worked, I just get very explicit.

    3) It really depends on the individual person. Some XNFPs just will not budge. Or ge more and more upset that you are challenging the point. Then you just have to decide how much it is worth it, how much you want to expend trying to get the other to change their mind. Often in conflict, I think the point is not to change other people's positions but rather to have your own acknowledged.

    For me, as an ENFP with lots of Fi, it is often enough to state my case, clearly, and with no equivocation and then I bounce. I choose my battles pretty carefully and the ones I choose I'm just in it to win it, folks! LOL.

    You have to understand too, that when an Fi user gets 'really mad' because their value has been tripped or they feel disrespected, they really don't care in that moment whether the relationship is sacrificed or how you feel. The universe closes into a tight non-peripheral circle around their heads. In other words, there is tunnel vision. I'm pretty sure the 'tunnel vision' is common to the population regardless of type, it's just that with an Fi user, it gets wrapped up in their emotional history and the matter at hand is all INCREDIBLY and heavily imbued with a lot of ethical/philosophical/personal significance. The kind that will make you hyperventilate in public.

    So maybe scaling it back with an XNFP and super simplifying the matter helps. As in focusing on exactly the matter at hand and try to put things in perspective.

    PS The "STFU and walk away" thing - I'm opposite. Normally I will say my peace and bounce, but when I'm really pissed or have my Fi really trampled, I cannot help but just go for it. Otherwise, it will eat me up inside and I'd rather yell at someone else for 3/5/15 minutes than have the equivalent of my psyche and inner child yelling at me for the rest of the day or week.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  3. #263
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?

  4. #264
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?
    Wow! Fidelia, when I thought I had looked at this issue from every possible angle, you came up with a question I hadn't yet considered. Hmmmm.....

    I'm thinking of my two INFP best friends and how this would work....

    Remember that I'm just considering this for the first time, but here's a go:

    I guess if I thought that my Fi-user friend had violated one of my Fi values, I'd feel pretty comfortable saying to them that I was considering whether or not their way was the right way to handle the situation." If their way wasn't feeling Fi right to me, I'd not hesitate (in fact feel compelled) to tell them. However, I don't think they'd respond to me in the way that an Fe user would respond.

    If I told my INFP BFF that I was troubled by such a matter, I would feel completely comfortable debating a value. For example, my friend might bring up a scenario in which my proposed superior Fi value wouldn't work. Then, I'd sincerely consider if I needed to reconsider my Fi value. No communication gap. No stress. Just Fi with Fi. And, the person to make the better logical argument would win.

    My natural affinity for logic aside, I think both ENFPs and ENTPs respond particularly well to logic. However, I would intuitively tread more lightly with an INFP. It's hard to explain, but my gut tells me that I need to give my dear and beautiful INFP friends a teeny bit more space to sort out their Fi logic after I point out it's Fi erroneous components.

    I've never really thought about this before but, I think that my Fi user friends and I have this implicit understanding that it's OK (even expected/best practice) to participate in a debate re: what is the correct value to have in a particular situation. In other words, it's important to Fi (in conjunction with Ni or Ne) to discuss and analyze Fi values. In fact, this is one of the hallmark of Fi values.... to believe (right or wrong) that one's Fi values are superior to Fe values. (I'm not trying to be insulting here, but this is how the Fi-Fe dynamic feels to me.... like Fe values are lesser somehow to Fi values.)
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  5. #265
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I realize that Fi does feel that way. However, I don't think they often take the time to do the debate thing to see why we'd go about things the way we do.

    What do you suppose would happen if a Fe user tried approaching the issue the way another Fi user would, but with their sense of values? Would it get weird? I think it would feel to us like we were being quite rude, but perhaps it would actually work better. However, would the Fi user then be able to approach the Fe user in their preferred manner, or would that feel totally like selling out? Could it be serving another greater value of theirs or just seem like only the convention they are using rather than the underlying meaning of that convention?

    To me, the reason for using certain methods of approaching someone is not because I am so attached to that method as the right way. It is because as an underlying value, I want to be heard by them, or I want them to feel respected, or I don't want to make them feel rejected, or I want to allow them to talk about something that matters to them etc. It is serving a greating value of mine. When I object to a Fi user's way of dealing with things, it is because they are stepping on one of those values - showing kindness to someone else, making them feel loved or cared for etc, much in the same way that you might object publicly when you felt someone was being unfairly treated. It isn't trying to control you (just as you objecting publicly isn't being dramatic), but rather that I am trying to stand up for someone or something that I believe in that I feel is being trampled.

  6. #266
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Holy macaroni! I just responded to Fidelia's statement with the hallmark Fi reflux statement.

    Let me try to tweak my response a bit to be more helpful to Fe users.... Also let me ask (in advance) for you readers to forgive me for being overly professorial. I see another analogy here between Fe and Fi users and the ways in which religious persons pursue their holy scriptures.
    • Fe tendencies. For example, in many cultures, a young faithful Christian is expected to submit themselves to the way God wants them to behave. (BTW, the way God wants them to behave is normally interpreted by a well-meaning minister who is nearby. There is a wonderful assured quality to this outlook.
    • Fi tendencies. I recall from grad school these WONDERFULLY comedic stories about Jewish young adult religious education. In Yeshiva, young Jewish men and women were taught how to debate their point of view. It was, in fact, encouraged. In other words, there was a core value that all persons involved in a moral debate had a right to debate the theological principal at hand.
    In other words, for an Fi user, such debate only enhances one's understanding of the matter at hand. It is not seen as a liability.

    I hope this makes sense.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  7. #267
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    No! Fe users (faithful or otherwise) do not just do what is expected of them with no underlying reasons. I am very frustrated by other Christians I see who really have no foundation for believing what they do other than that they were told to. I have arrived at my conclusions by observing others, by reading and discussing various stances and points of view with a variety of people and by personal experience. I don't debate in a Te way, but it doesn't mean that Fe users do not see the need for critical thinking. I am strongly against those who blindly follow a leader or minister and equate it with God's truth.

    In my own ancestry, we have two branches of ancestry (Mennonite Germans and Scotch Presbyterians) who went on wild goose chases to Uzbekistan and New Zealand respectively because of following leaders like this. My mother, who is an ENFJ is the one in her family who was least likely to follow foolish people in the church just because they thought that they were speaking for God. This is not a Fe/Fi thing. I can see where debate to come to understand could be less preferred by some Fe users (particularly if they dislike adversarial discourse and no time to reflect before responding), but certainly that does not allow them to just accept what they are told they should because it is comfortable. That will be taken as very insulting by most Fe users!

    (Incidentally as a disclaimer, I'm not upset at you, but I don't think this point can be stressed enough because it is not accurate).

    I can see that my style of communicating or asking questions isn't particularly straightforward for you guys. I must fix that and am working on figuring out how. In the meantime though, I'm wondering about the answers to the questions I asked.

  8. #268
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    I realize that the problem for Fi users is somewhat that they feel that no one has the one Right way to do things and that it is presumptuous for someone to believe they do. In Fe users eyes, they are trying to prevent trouble for you that seems needless and at cross purposes to your ultimate goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Very interesting and helpful! Do Fi users ever accidentally trample each other's values, or are they likely to see where that would happen before it does happen and just steer clear?
    In reply to both these responses, I'd like to say that I very much appreciate Fe-users pointing out things that I'm oblivious to, that I've forgotten about, like keeping me from getting bear-mauled. What irks me is the way in which they do it. If they do it in an informative way, without any undertones, I truly love it. If however the tone clearly suggests that I clearly have the sense of responsibility of a child for not noticing myself and being an idiot, that's when I feel the need to blatantly ignore them and make it clear that they really don't have any say over who I am or what I do. Everyone can make mistakes. And they aint that perfect themselves. I also cannot stand hypocrisy or the need to feel better about yourself by knocking someone else a notch down. So I grow resentful and rebellious and will do *anything* I can (without harming myself or others) to escape their social control and prove them the opposite.

    I *know* I'm prone to forgetfulness, and being up in my head and forgetting about details taht sometimes have big consequences. I also accept those consequences. I won't ask for your sympathy or pity afterwards when something happens. I'm grateful if you keep me from making a fool of myself or, in this case, from getting myself mauled. I however do not need an 'I told you so' or an 'how could you be so irresponsible?!' It's not like I did this on purpose.

    and here's the kicker for a Fi-user:


    IF YOU KNOW THEM, TRULY CONSIDER YOURSELF A FRIEND OF A FI-USER, YOU WILL KNOW THAT THEY WOULD NEVER DREAM OF HARMING YOU, THEMSELVES OR OTHERS ON PURPOSE.

    That means that guilttripping us about a mistake we made IS NOT APPRECIATED. It goes back to intent. Yes, it went wrong. But it was not like we planned to get those bears on your ass or ours for that matter.

    That's the thing. If you befriend a Fi-user, and you consider yourself a good friend, the one expectation this Fi-user will have is that you know who they are, as to them that's the core of a good friendship. Acquaintances are not expected to do so, neither are colleagues, but a good friend *knows* YOU. And it is that that we do ourselves with you as a friend. And that means that you can see and understand *why* someone does something, be it good, bad or foolhardy. And if you know it is in their nature, if it's their weakness to forget stuff, or be up in their head, you do *not* scold them when they're clearly trying but still mess up somehow. You help them. And you understand and forgive. Accept them for who they are. Yes, you can help them improve, but no, you *do not* have the right to blame them for their flaws as you yourself have your own flaws that you should fix first.

    Let he who is without flaws cast the first stone.





    As for your question as to how Fi-users approach each other...it can get tricky as well, depending on which values they adhere to. If one of those values gets tripped by the natural way of being by the other, they will grow to avoid one another as there will never really be a way to get along. And since they both recognize each others right to be who they are, they will give each other space (much like cats in a colony timeshare on the common goods so they don't have to be near one another but can still live together), enough space, not to irk one another.

    If corevalues are being tripped in one, the other Fi-user will accomodate that person as they figure out what *exactly* set it off (providing it does not, as before, curb an important freedom-need of the other Fi-user). The willingness to listen to the other is what calms down Fi. The feeling that the other is, without judgement or expectation trying to calmly flesh out what happened, and truly wants to understand, is what Fi needs. As pointed out before, the core of respect and friendship is the fact that you make an effort to understand *who the person is*. And you do that by active listening, asking open questions without making assumptions. You can at some point go: so, what you're saying is: [insert sommation of info], but it had better be only a summing up of the facts, and not a conclusion+judgement.

    And then...something magical happens. The second you get that right, you can judge. You can think what you want. You can disagree with it, presenting your view on it, you can tell them it's not for you, as long as you can demonstrate that you've actually grasped the pov correctly. The second you understand, the second that I can tell that you truly grasp what I'm on about, that you can see my pov, I can totally understand it being immoral, unethical or whatever it is yo uthink of it. I will still not allow you to impose your views on me, but I will respect your pov on the matter and will minimize the behavior that irks you so, around you, *becoz I care for you*.

    But if you judge before you actually grasp the perspective, your judgement will be overruled. It's invalid at that point as it is based on incomplete info and therefore corrupted in my eyes. If you keep to a faulty pov, it becomes a sore topic. You're not making an effort to understand the way it's meant, and therefore I cannot accept your opinion or respect it. And that *will* show in the way I relate to you on that topic.


    As for the other way around: how to tell a Fi-user to back off.

    The best way is to ask for their understanding. Make them aware that something is emotionally off with you and they will pause to make space to figure it out. At that point, the best thing to do is explain to them your pov and why certain words or phrases make you cringe. Speak in 'I experience this this way', instead of 'Your way of being..' and flesh out how things would work for you. Once you do, realize that the Fi-user will adjust to what you prefer becoz they care for you, especially if you didn't hit a Fi-value in them, they'll be very adaptable normally. However, don't expect them to change their behavior with anyone else. Fi-users create a bond with everyone, formed on what that person needs, the fi-values they hold and what the extend of their bond is..not a general approach. It doesn't mean that we're 'lying to you' or just 'pretending to get you off of our backs' when we adjust, it actually is a sign of love as this is how we build a bond with someone, figuring out the perfect agreement that makes us both happy and comfortable.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #269
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    As for your question as to how Fi-users approach each other...it can get tricky as well, depending on which values they adhere to. If one of those values gets tripped by the natural way of being by the other, they will grow to avoid one another as there will never really be a way to get along. And since they both recognize each others right to be who they are, they will give each other space (much like cats in a colony timeshare on the common goods so they don't have to be near one another but can still live together), enough space, not to irk one another.

    If corevalues are being tripped in one, the other Fi-user will accomodate that person as they figure out what *exactly* set it off (providing it does not, as before, curb an important freedom-need of the other Fi-user). The willingness to listen to the other is what calms down Fi. The feeling that the other is, without judgement or expectation trying to calmly flesh out what happened, and truly wants to understand, is what Fi needs. As pointed out before, the core of respect and friendship is the fact that you make an effort to understand *who the person is*. And you do that by active listening, asking open questions without making assumptions. You can at some point go: so, what you're saying is: [insert sommation of info], but it had better be only a summing up of the facts, and not a conclusion+judgement.

    And then...something magical happens. The second you get that right, you can judge.
    You can think what you want. You can disagree with it, presenting your view on it, you can tell them it's not for you, as long as you can demonstrate that you've actually grasped the pov correctly. The second you understand, the second that I can tell that you truly grasp what I'm on about, that you can see my pov, I can totally understand it being immoral, unethical or whatever it is yo uthink of it. I will still not allow you to impose your views on me, but I will respect your pov on the matter and will minimize the behavior that irks you so, around you, *becoz I care for you*.
    .
    Satine gives a very good explanation of this tripping of Fi values. I see them as little trip wires around enfps. If you manage to clip one, they get angsty. Their eyes get kinda bulgy and they get abrupt. I dunno, I note czecze and satine want to talk about it in the moment....maybe because these are not close frineds, I find stepping away slowly is the best solution, especially if the trigger point wasnt something I care about. I learned along time ago to quell my own response, so it takes a lot to generate a vocal Fi response from me....but I have had other enfps go nuts on me

    Back away slowly from the emo agitated....and as Satine said, if they are little stupid Fi oddities, you just learn not to step there for that person. If they are big ones, than you avoid them, or have to talk the issue out. But disagreement on big ones isnt too common, and if you are dedicated enough to the relationship to work through it, it is typically stuff you should talk about anyways..like religion, kids, and so on.

  10. #270
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    However, would the Fi user then be able to approach the Fe user in their preferred manner, or would that feel totally like selling out? Could it be serving another greater value of theirs or just seem like only the convention they are using rather than the underlying meaning of that convention?
    This is interesting as I sort figured it our last week...Just as esoteric and I hardwire logic as an Fi value, you could hardwire Fe on top of Fi as an Fi value. The actual Fi value is one of caring for the other person and loving them in a way that meets their needs....those needs are Fe needs.

    Thus while the behavior may be Fe...it isnt violating Fi authenticity. Sorta like building a tower of logical premises that stack...as long as the Fe doesnt violate Fi principles, but rather supports them, then it is okay to use Fe...

    When I do this with an Fe, I can suddenly say all the Fe phrases and it is totally okay, as that is what THEY NEED. I are learning to remold myself to meet their need. It is bizarre though as the tie to Fi becomes sort of faint...

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