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  1. #231
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    Man...wanna trade dads? Mine just reacted the *exact* opposite...*is jealous*
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  2. #232
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Man...wanna trade dads? Mine just reacted the *exact* opposite...*is jealous*
    aw, bummer, sorry. though a fair amount of the time, mine doesn't react that way either. i just wish he would take my opinion into consideration more easily.

    actually, speaking of --

    i'd like to add a misunderstanding to the list, if other ENFPs agree. it's kind of painful to write this, but i think it's important, because as much as i really don't want to admit it, i feel like ENFPs get blown off fairly often for not being serious enough.


    Appearing shallow - Because ENFPs use Ne to take information, we tend to jet from topic to topic. As Perceiving types, we are also apt to associate with other points of view easily, and are always after more information. Add Fi to the mix, and it results in us being interested in, and caring about, pretty much anything that comes to mind. However, to those who don't know us as well, this can easily come off as superficiality, fake engagement, and wishy-washiness - in short, being shallow. We also love to be silly and sarcastic, and we tend to keep an overall light tone. This does not mean that we don't think about or understand pain, destruction, cruelty, and other darker or more serious things in life. Most of us do, far more often than we let on. However, we don't generally see it conflicting with our ability to have a good time: to us, it's all a part of the grand song and dance of life. Just like being considered uncaring or disloyal, shallow is one of the last things we would ever like to be called, and we don't mean to come off that way. Our interest is real, as is our care. If you need us to be more serious, just let us know.

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    Appearing shallow - Because ENFPs use Ne to take information, we tend to jet from topic to topic. As Perceiving types, we are also apt to associate with other points of view easily, and are always after more information. Add Fi to the mix, and it results in us being interested in, and caring about, pretty much anything that comes to mind. However, to those who don't know us as well, this can easily come off as superficiality, fake engagement, and wishy-washiness - in short, being shallow. We also love to be silly and sarcastic, and we tend to keep an overall light tone. This does not mean that we don't think about or understand pain, destruction, cruelty, and other darker or more serious things in life. Most of us do, far more often than we let on. However, we don't generally see it conflicting with our ability to have a good time: to us, it's all a part of the grand song and dance of life. Just like being considered uncaring or disloyal, shallow is one of the last things we would ever like to be called, and we don't mean to come off that way. Our interest is real, as is our care. If you need us to be more serious, just let us know.
    I agree with all of this. I also think the lightness is necessary, because some people take themselves too seriously, and play is an important part of life. It's not just about negative things "interfering with our good time" it's also about wanting to bring happiness to a situation, because life is partly just BEING...you know..sometimes it would help people out to "just be" a little more. People can get bogged down in seriousness and negativity and that's not always healthy, either. It's a way of taking perspective.

    I think ENFPs with strong Fi development can actually swing the other way and come across as EXTREMELY HEAVY at other times, just as we can come across as "shallow" or light.

  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    aw, bummer, sorry. though a fair amount of the time, mine doesn't react that way either. i just wish he would take my opinion into consideration more easily.

    actually, speaking of --

    i'd like to add a misunderstanding to the list, if other ENFPs agree. it's kind of painful to write this, but i think it's important, because as much as i really don't want to admit it, i feel like ENFPs get blown off fairly often for not being serious enough.


    Appearing shallow - Because ENFPs use Ne to take information, we tend to jet from topic to topic. As Perceiving types, we are also apt to associate with other points of view easily, and are always after more information. Add Fi to the mix, and it results in us being interested in, and caring about, pretty much anything that comes to mind. However, to those who don't know us as well, this can easily come off as superficiality, fake engagement, and wishy-washiness - in short, being shallow. We also love to be silly and sarcastic, and we tend to keep an overall light tone. This does not mean that we don't think about or understand pain, destruction, cruelty, and other darker or more serious things in life. Most of us do, far more often than we let on. However, we don't generally see it conflicting with our ability to have a good time: to us, it's all a part of the grand song and dance of life. Just like being considered uncaring or disloyal, shallow is one of the last things we would ever like to be called, and we don't mean to come off that way. Our interest is real, as is our care. If you need us to be more serious, just let us know.
    i love this. so very true. i can be totally serious and have deep meaningful conversation but am very aware that to the majority i must come off very light...and perhaps lacking substance...and it's just so not true.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #235
    A snowstorm is coming... Amargith's Avatar
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    OP edited to include your information on Shallowness, and correct you are, I'd say. Thnx for the sympathy
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  6. #236

    Default ENFP Te rationalization?

    After a disagreement or emotional misunderstanding, I have seen myself and other ENFPs engage in a large amount of rationalization and dissection of what went wrong. I have seen Fe users comment that “I don’t want to hear all of the crap, just don’t do it again” or say “You are overthinking things.” I have also seen others more negatively imply we are justifying our actions via rationalization.

    I thought in light of onemoretime’s comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I remember a few months back when we talked about the "Fi-nudge" and how it hit me the wrong way. I'm now beginning to realize that this is the "Fe-nudge", and why it feels manipulative to you. In reality, this is often simply done to gently remind a person to think about someone other than themselves, and act accordingly. It doesn't feel manipulative, because the intended response to it is to go through a thought process of one's own that would inevitably lead to the conclusion that the "nudger" was trying to impart. If any negative reaction occurs, it's the frustration (in Freudian terms) of the id being smacked down by the superego - you know it's right, but you're mad that a.) you let yourself slip and get selfish and b.) that you don't get to satisfy that desire. You don't feel manipulated, though, because the other person's right, and was simply reminding you to think the whole thing through.

    However, if you're not prone to go through that thought process (you could see this as the Fe-Ti bridge), the only thing this would appeal to is the nature of one's relationship with that person, and the fear of the deterioration of that relationship. The use of fear to coerce is the very definition of manipulation, so I understand why you could see it that way.
    This was a useful contrast to what may be happening in an ENFP and why ENFPs do this sort of post disagreement dissection.

    When an ENFP has an intense emotional event occur, we have to figure out what went wrong so we do not repeat. We analyze the event with Te to map out what went wrong, how it went wrong and what we could have done differently. Since Te is extroverted we will do this aloud and will typically share with the person we hurt or were in disagreement with. This can be tainted with all sorts of emo, of course-the frame is Te, but the content could be all types of emo stuff-pure emotion, Fi judgements and other sorts of crap. It could all be wrong, pure BS, true rationalization of our incorrect response....

    We desire to have them respond in turn and correct our misunderstandings. A mutual Te-Te style discussion where we work out where the problem came from and each walk away having learned lessons about what not to repeat-with total forgiveness and no grudges held.

    (I like Uumlaus description of a Te-Te interaction as Quality Assurance. This makes a great deal of sense. I tell you my facts and seek for you to correct my errors.)

    However-in light one onemoretime’s comment…to a Ti-Fe user this extroverted rationalization may come across incorrectly. Fe rebukes seem to promote internal Ti rationalization…not external Te discussion. Thus the enfp discussion either is just annoying and seemingly not needed, appears as endless justification, or appears as over-rationalization.

    Problematically, without this externalized discussion….the issue never really feels resolved. How can I be certain that you will not do the same thing again in the future if we never establish what went wrong or right on this occurance? There is no sense of closure.

    So this is my take on the subject…..which of course could always be endlessly flawed (please refer to Te quality assurance above )

    So my questions-

    1) Do other ENFPs see this need for discussion in themselves? Have others seen this in ENFPs around them?

    2) If so, what does this look like from other perspectives? If I am interacting with an Fe/Ti person, how do I know they have learned from the encounter and trust they will not repeat what went wrong on their end? How can I more effectively have a post disagreement discussion that doesnt frustrate them? Should I just skip any discussions?

  7. #237

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    ^^meant to post this as a new thread but I will leave it here as well, as it is something I see in ENFPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I
    I think ENFPs with strong Fi development can actually swing the other way and come across as EXTREMELY HEAVY at other times, just as we can come across as "shallow" or light.
    Marm, can you describe what this would look like-an ENFP with a very well developed Fi?

    Honestly I always thought of Satine and Silly as having very well developed Fi-they can be delightfully light and beautifully funny-clever, but their Fi seems very well resolved??? They feel very strongly about their ideals and will openly strongly fight for them.... I really have no idea though, and could be totally wrong.

    My crazy ass Ne makes me hyperspastic and subject hopping but my heavy Te can make me very somber and serious too. When I let people see Fi...well once an INTP here told me I sounded very childlike, infantile even. I have the Fi of a nin year old. So i dunno...

  8. #238
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    aw, bummer, sorry. though a fair amount of the time, mine doesn't react that way either. i just wish he would take my opinion into consideration more easily.

    actually, speaking of --

    i'd like to add a misunderstanding to the list, if other ENFPs agree. it's kind of painful to write this, but i think it's important, because as much as i really don't want to admit it, i feel like ENFPs get blown off fairly often for not being serious enough.


    Appearing shallow - Because ENFPs use Ne to take information, we tend to jet from topic to topic. As Perceiving types, we are also apt to associate with other points of view easily, and are always after more information. Add Fi to the mix, and it results in us being interested in, and caring about, pretty much anything that comes to mind. However, to those who don't know us as well, this can easily come off as superficiality, fake engagement, and wishy-washiness - in short, being shallow. We also love to be silly and sarcastic, and we tend to keep an overall light tone. This does not mean that we don't think about or understand pain, destruction, cruelty, and other darker or more serious things in life. Most of us do, far more often than we let on. However, we don't generally see it conflicting with our ability to have a good time: to us, it's all a part of the grand song and dance of life. Just like being considered uncaring or disloyal, shallow is one of the last things we would ever like to be called, and we don't mean to come off that way. Our interest is real, as is our care. If you need us to be more serious, just let us know.
    Hmm, if there is one thing I've never been called is shallow.

  9. #239
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I agree with all of this. I also think the lightness is necessary, because some people take themselves too seriously, and play is an important part of life. It's not just about negative things "interfering with our good time" it's also about wanting to bring happiness to a situation, because life is partly just BEING...you know..sometimes it would help people out to "just be" a little more. People can get bogged down in seriousness and negativity and that's not always healthy, either. It's a way of taking perspective.
    Yeah. I really agree with this too. Just pure enjoyment in life is underrated!

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    When an ENFP has an intense emotional event occur, we have to figure out what went wrong so we do not repeat. We analyze the event with Te to map out what went wrong, how it went wrong and what we could have done differently. Since Te is extroverted we will do this aloud and will typically share with the person we hurt or were in disagreement with. This can be tainted with all sorts of emo, of course-the frame is Te, but the content could be all types of emo stuff-pure emotion, Fi judgements and other sorts of crap. It could all be wrong, pure BS, true rationalization of our incorrect response...[...]
    Thus the enfp discussion either is just annoying and seemingly not needed, appears as endless justification, or appears as over-rationalization.
    [...]
    1) Do other ENFPs see this need for discussion in themselves? Have others seen this in ENFPs around them?

    2) If so, what does this look like from other perspectives? If I am interacting with an Fe/Ti person, how do I know they have learned from the encounter and trust they will not repeat what went wrong on their end? How can I more effectively have a post disagreement discussion that doesnt frustrate them? Should I just skip any discussions?
    1. Yes, definitely. When something goes poorly I want to break it down and find out why - and I figure that's exactly what Te means versus Ti - the answer is out there, but I have to work my way to it. It's not in me, unlike with Fi. Anyway, I think this has come off as self-centered before, but for me it's more like disaster management. I have a hard time knowing what it looks like from the other side, but I know I've annoyed Fe/Ti users with it before. At the same time, the Fe/Ti people I know well are mainly Fe doms, and being that and Js (and just lovely people) they are typically willing to walk it through with me quickly and point out what kinds of insensitive things I did.

    2. I would really benefit from understanding this better too. Sometimes I find that if I write things out, then I can do Te-organizing without someone else first, and then debrief. But I have to admit that it's really nice to have someone around with grounded logic to help calm the emotional turbulence. When I'm worked up, just being around certain people calms me down... mostly Fe people, but I don't know how much that's just coincidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Hmm, if there is one thing I've never been called is shallow.
    Me neither, aloud, but I think I've come off that way before. I suspect that four main variables also would tend to prevent this... 1, having strong and well-used across-the-board Te, 2, having well-developed stable Fi, 3, being more introverted, and 4, being older and/or a guy. Though maybe there's a better word for it than shallow?

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    Marm, can you describe what this would look like-an ENFP with a very well developed Fi?

    Honestly I always thought of Satine and Silly as having very well developed Fi-they can be delightfully light and beautifully funny-clever, but their Fi seems very well resolved??? They feel very strongly about their ideals and will openly strongly fight for them.... I really have no idea though, and could be totally wrong.

    My crazy ass Ne makes me hyperspastic and subject hopping but my heavy Te can make me very somber and serious too. When I let people see Fi...well once an INTP here told me I sounded very childlike, infantile even. I have the Fi of a nin year old. So i dunno...
    Well sure...first of all, I think SS has a ton of Ne...she's definitely Ne dom and I think that's where her lightness comes from...I think she has more Ne than me. Her Fi is still pretty intense, though, when it comes out and is completely different than Satine's so I find it interesting that you compare the two.

    I think Satine's Fi is developed in the sense that she has very definite ethical values when it comes to not offending others and trying to understand where people come from when she doesn't agree with them...so it almost looks like Fe to me.

    INFPs can be extremely intense, so think of Fi more so in that way. I am very intense and can be quite heavy emotionally. People tell me sometimes that they think I am Fi dom or Fe dom because I have so much feeling development. By "well developed Fi" I mean an ENFP who uses a lot of their Feeling function, not necessarily the most ideal version of that function.

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