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  1. #161
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, PB, I would concur with Cze Cze's explanation!

    You're also right about Fe rules changing from group to group. It's not about conventions, but about finding a way to make things work for as many people as possible within that specific setting. You could take the same group of people on a different day and some of those variables may change again. Therefore Fe is about adjusting and also trying to facilitate the best set of circumstances possible.

    Re chores analogy: I guess it's not so much that we have to keep a check system all the time. However, I'll probably notice if someone has been trying extra hard to accommodate me, which will afford them extra rope sometime when they don't have that to give. I'm thinking maybe it has to do with Fe looking at the picture of the very long term whereas Fi evaluates it more on a time by time basis. Is that possible?

    You are right PB that under normal circumstances, I would have probably adjusted to EW and either tried to state things solely in her terms or just abandoned the conversation. I was not the only INFJ who reacted that way though. It was pretty across the board. I felt though that if she was trying to understand how we thought, it would make sense for her to make some of the adjustments. Here, I am a visitor and while I feel welcome to be a part of the conversation, it is the equivalent of visiting someone else's home or organization. While I'm here, I do things as close as I can to what works for the ENFPs and try to better understand them. If we meet in some public place, then both of us try to do some accommodating/adjusting in style and perception.

    Thanks Marm for your perspective. I think that would make sense!

    EW - By the way, I will try what you suggest in terms of writing. I really envy that ability that you guys have!

  2. #162
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think an INFJ or ISFJ that I love and respect could probably convince me to change or do things differently more than any other types. There is something about the more subtle nudge of auxillary Fe, as opposed to the more obvious Fe dom...and not to mention, combined probably with a healthy dose of Ti...that makes me want to behave differently. They have a way of tapping into my need to want to please or care for others, and can point out my flaws in a more humble and less hurtful way than some other types. The right IxFJ can totally reign me in.

    It has to be someone I love and respect though. Some random IxFJ passive-aggressively harping on me as a stranger or casual acquaintence isn't going to do much better than an ExFJ or ENTP would do....the only difference would be that I'd probably get into a confrontation with the ExFJ or ENTP, and just quietly roll my eyes or think thoughts in my head toward the IxFJ...something about them man, I don't want to fight with them, unless they're really bad in their ExTP shadow and actively trying to provoke me.
    I know that ENTPs are by nature more likely to go for the confrontation, so it seems more likely to choose that path. I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't state your thoughts in the same way towards an IxFJ. If you were in a relationship with one, would that be true as well. Would that ever become a problem in a close friendship with one, or would you be detached enough from the annoyance that it wouldn't pose long term problems?

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I know that ENTPs are by nature more likely to go for the confrontation, so it seems more likely to choose that path. I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't state your thoughts in the same way towards an IxFJ. If you were in a relationship with one, would that be true as well. Would that ever become a problem in a close friendship with one, or would you be detached enough from the annoyance that it wouldn't pose long term problems?
    Oh in a relationship or real friendship I would certainly state my thoughts honestly, and I'd probably be more likely though to do it mirroring the more calm, respectful manner of speaking that IxFJs often do. I wouldn't be detached from annoyance in that case, because I usually feel great warmth toward IxFJs, even on the interwebz. There are always going to be exceptions, of course.

    What I meant was in the case of a stranger or very casual acquaintance I would probably feel they didn't know me well enough to try to "correct" or "counsel" me so I would disregard their opinion more quickly, as I often do with people who don't know me well. The only difference being is that I would be less likely to actively confront them about it, even if I felt I was being harped on, because of the "normal" IxFJ manner - meaning the way IxFJs generally are when not in a more overbearing or provocative ExTP shadow.

    I think ENFPs mirror people. That's why we're so emotionally reactive, maybe. We mirror what we're hooking ourselves into in terms of the other person or people we're talking to, which may be a clue to why I personally react differently.

  4. #164
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You're also right about Fe rules changing from group to group. It's not about conventions, but about finding a way to make things work for as many people as possible within that specific setting. You could take the same group of people on a different day and some of those variables may change again. Therefore Fe is about adjusting and also trying to facilitate the best set of circumstances possible.
    Agreed; people are like the ingredients; change the people, change the ingredients, and therefore the "recipe", method and end-result can be altered as well. Fe then tries to ensure we still get "chocolate cake" as the result, and Fi is more likely to accept the ingredients at hand and make something else.

    Does that analogy ring true?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Re chores analogy: I guess it's not so much that we have to keep a check system all the time. However, I'll probably notice if someone has been trying extra hard to accommodate me, which will afford them extra rope sometime when they don't have that to give. I'm thinking maybe it has to do with Fe looking at the picture of the very long term whereas Fi evaluates it more on a time by time basis. Is that possible?
    Thanks for the explanation of the nuances. My Fi value would look like, "When you see someone working, it is inconsiderate and rude to not at least offer to help." So the onus is on me to pay attention. (And to offer, or help, as appropriate.) People who are considerate do get more bonus attention from me (or rewards let's say) but those who don't help at all aren't necessarily cut off at some point either.

    Maybe Fi is more real-time focussed, I am not sure ... I know that each circumstance is unique, I don't string them together specifically ... but I remember them all, it's not like I don't pay attention to cumulative trends.

    You are right PB that under normal circumstances, I would have probably adjusted to EW and either tried to state things solely in her terms or just abandoned the conversation. I was not the only INFJ who reacted that way though.
    @bold: Oh yes, I realize that too. I meant more to emphasize that other INFJ's would have instantly felt wary of EW, but would not have had the benefit of your cumulative experience and perspective.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Had never thought about it that way - as overload because it would spawn all sort of new ideas and connections. Obviously bullet points are the way to go and bolding. Aside from that any suggestions for communicating in a way that will hold an ENFP's attention?
    Big picture and conceptual rather than details. I work way quicker going top down than bottom up. It also keeps me far more interested if my mind can be filling in blanks and running ahead of the conversation. With details it is often a case of look at one detail then the next, and becomes more of a struggle to remember all the information until I find a place for it. Concepts on the other hand leave room for play and seem more a discussion of understanding than knowledge. With this as a start, my mind happily goes about filling in the details or searching for them. And now that I know why I want to know, the details are absorbed easily.

    At least in my case, an overview at the start of a wall of text could be enough to give more interest in the parts. Especially an overview of the content and the whys? For example if I start with the big picture, the context, and the motivation for asking, then details get absorbed quickly. The motivation is actually quite important. I'm not sure why. It might establish some kind of bond or context for interest to grow within, or help me feel my input will be of benefit to you. I find the same thing with teaching a large class vs 1on1 tutoring. I'm not as comfortable with just dispensing information as I am with interactively moving toward understanding.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  6. #166
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Excellent! Now we're gettin' somewhere. Thanks for that.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Big picture and conceptual rather than details. I work way quicker going top down than bottom up. It also keeps me far more interested if my mind can be filling in blanks and running ahead of the conversation. With details it is often a case of look at one detail then the next, and becomes more of a struggle to remember all the information until I find a place for it. Concepts on the other hand leave room for play and seem more a discussion of understanding than knowledge. With this as a start, my mind happily goes about filling in the details or searching for them. And now that I know why I want to know, the details are absorbed easily.

    At least in my case, an overview at the start of a wall of text could be enough to give more interest in the parts. Especially an overview of the content and the whys? For example if I start with the big picture, the context, and the motivation for asking, then details get absorbed quickly. The motivation is actually quite important. I'm not sure why. It might establish some kind of bond or context for interest to grow within, or help me feel my input will be of benefit to you. I find the same thing with teaching a large class vs 1on1 tutoring. I'm not as comfortable with just dispensing information as I am with interactively moving toward understanding.
    The wall of text can be difficult for me as well...I'm an avid reader, but if I wanted to read a novel, I would. Often on places like Internet forums I want to read shorter posts, or at least things that are clear and concise that don't look like blah blah blah. Unfortunately I may be missing something valuable, because surely it's not really all blah blah blah (though sometimes it is...) and I will force myself to read closely if it's super important, but often times it's really draining to me to do so.

    I've actually had an ISFJ tell me to go back and re-read words in chat before I respond to them, so that I don't overreact or make mistakes in my responses, and it's the same sort of thing.

    Something else that occurred to me that seems forum specific is the tendency of ENFPs (and ENTPs, and sometimes INFPs) to derail and bounce around and play on the forums, and this really bugs some other people. I guess to some it looks like a sort of rude vandalism, or just annoyingly unfocused and ADHD, but at the same time, I feel myself getting annoyed with people who feel compelled to reign in innocent derailment that doesn't involve them. They don't see it that way, they see it as serving the highest good.

    The funny thing is though is that ENFPs can engage in this same controlling - er, confrontational, in our case - behavior that is often attributed to Fe though...just in a different way...we'll see a particular individual doing something we believe strongly with Fi/Te NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED AND DEALT WITH and won't let it go (I think this is especially true of us with a great deal of Te, or with a strong ISTJ shadow), and Fe users will see it as unnecessary disruption of social harmony.

    It's kind of ironic that ENFPs and Fe types can both seek to reign in other people for different reasons. Can I get other ENFPs to admit to doing this?

  8. #168
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Big picture and conceptual rather than details. I work way quicker going top down than bottom up. It also keeps me far more interested if my mind can be filling in blanks and running ahead of the conversation. With details it is often a case of look at one detail then the next, and becomes more of a struggle to remember all the information until I find a place for it. Concepts on the other hand leave room for play and seem more a discussion of understanding than knowledge. With this as a start, my mind happily goes about filling in the details or searching for them. And now that I know why I want to know, the details are absorbed easily.

    At least in my case, an overview at the start of a wall of text could be enough to give more interest in the parts. Especially an overview of the content and the whys? For example if I start with the big picture, the context, and the motivation for asking, then details get absorbed quickly. The motivation is actually quite important. I'm not sure why. It might establish some kind of bond or context for interest to grow within, or help me feel my input will be of benefit to you. I find the same thing with teaching a large class vs 1on1 tutoring. I'm not as comfortable with just dispensing information as I am with interactively moving toward understanding.
    To support this, the irony is that I often post novels on other message boards. To explain my opinion I need to thoroughly outline every concept and connect them all together. I do this because I notice people have a hard time following my stream of consciousness. So the wall of texts I come up with are trying to give that some structure and because it came from my mind it's "the big picture" and because of that I've been accused of generalizations.

    The way I notice other people doing it seems like tedium to me, if I don't see a reflective particle of the big picture my mind short circuits. Like a small dinosaur.

    DELAYED EDIT:
    This might sound rude but to build on this:
    Often on places like Internet forums I want to read shorter posts, or at least things that are clear and concise that don't look like blah blah blah. Unfortunately I may be missing something valuable, because surely it's not really all blah blah blah
    Things that aren't written in the way I tend to think (big picture etc.,) LOOK like "blah blah blah" to me because the "value"/shiny stuff isn't the same kind of shiny stuff I like. Dumb metaphor, I know.. ..there was a better one in my head but I lost it.

    The funny thing is though is that ENFPs can engage in this same controlling - er, confrontational, in our case - behavior that is often attributed to Fe though...just in a different way...we'll see a particular individual doing something we believe strongly with Fi/Te NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED AND DEALT WITH and won't let it go (I think this is especially true of us with a great deal of Te, or with a strong ISTJ shadow), and Fe users will see it as unnecessary disruption of social harmony.

    It's kind of ironic that ENFPs and Fe types can both seek to reign in other people for different reasons. Can I get other ENFPs to admit to doing this?
    Yeah, I definitely do this. Lately, it's when someone's logic seems illogical to me or inefficient or like a loss of potential. But socially inept and/or people who think to rigidly (to the point where they can't empathize). Lately, I've been loosing patience with people who aren't as socially "bold" as me (people with crushes and someone they're too nervous to talk to).
    Which is weird to me because I'd always been the timid one in the past.
    But I do become controlling in these and other situations.

    Oh yeah and people who don't adapt as fast frustrate me.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #169
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Being taken seriously could be another problem.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
    Being taken seriously could be another problem.
    Yeah and it can go both ways. People often don't take us seriously enough - even if we can prove ourselves to be quite "book smart" - because of our basic nature and ways of expressing ourselves.

    On the other hand, I also find that some people take my game playing or theatrics TOO seriously, as well - it's like really? REALLY?

    So it's a matter of not being taken seriously when I am being thoughtful, or being taken too seriously when I'm just fucking around.

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