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  1. #151
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    Sometimes I can focus, sometimes I can't. I find it hard to follow discussions on forums after a while no matter what.

    Which is annoying because I'm really interested in this stuff.
    this. and because im unable to focus at the moment even tho im interested to read i dont have anything else to say. i managed to read few posts, but then i had to do something else, i did something else for like 45 minutes and tried again but still cant focus on following whats happening on this topic.

    This is pretty frustrating..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #152
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Isn't that like saying that the subjective experiences of others are invalid, in some way?
    No. I'm not applying how I feel/operate to everyone else with a big, wide brush, so why should you?.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Let's look at this question:

    "In the kind of conversation that 21% used as an example, how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about?"

    At this point, there's no reason to hear about a similar situation you've been through. To put it quite bluntly, if I were fidelia, I just wouldn't care. You're doing something for me, right now, and it's rude to yank the spotlight back on oneself through that sort of thing (at least, that's how it's perceived).

    It's all right if you want to go through the experience in your head, but she just wants the nugget of relevant information burrowed within it: "what's the point that things went bad, and how could they have gone better?" That's it, because she's got a busy life as well, and going on and on about something that bears little relevance in her life is wasting her time. That may not seem very nice, but that's how I at least perceive it.
    My mother does this about mundane things every day (around strangers to explain herself) and I get annoyed because it's a time waster BUT when it comes to introspection/investigation of something "deep" I don't understand how the information is useful if no one relates to it (directly). <--- See how that just happened? I don't know why I do that but most people don't and that gives me the impression they are impersonal and hard to get to know. Relating back is crucial to my understanding and active listening.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  3. #153
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    So for you, connecting would require that both of you exchange your personal experiences first and foremost? I think that would be true for me, but it would probably come in a different sequence.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    So for you, connecting would require that both of you exchange your personal experiences first and foremost? I think that would be true for me, but it would probably come in a different sequence.
    Pretty close to first and foremost. I've learned that's not the way the world works but if it's 2-4 months into the relationship and it's still shallow "chit chat" and nothing meaningful or personal I'm done with it.

    The only sensible thing from the somatype thread:
    They (ENFP) want to orient themselves by understanding their relationship to everything else.
    If I don't get my empathy bearings on me it'd be much harder to understand other people.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  5. #155
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah 2-4 months in is a completely different story!

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I believe that's how we process understanding. From how we relate to it from our experiences. Speaking about anything but personal experiences would seem inauthentic.
    From what I understand ISFJs do this too (and I'm guessing ESFJs and INFPs do as well). I think it has something to do with a feeling function combined with Si...though for them Si would be more prominant in their descriptions (details of those experiences, and how that is relevant to the topic) and Fi would be more prominant in ours (attaching values to those experiences, and how that is relevant to the topic).

    I don't think it's "inauthentic" when people speak from a more objective or detached place, but I do tend to think (probably due to Te as well as Si) that some things just can't be surmised without experience, and as wonderful as Ti is, I think that's where it falls short...it can be theorizing about things that look logical and rational, but aren't necessarily applicable in reality.

    So do xNTPs and xNFJs put more value on objective theory than we do? Perhaps. I also wonder how SPs factor into all of this.

  7. #157
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hey marmy welcome to the party!

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    For Fi users, we have to remove ourselves to restore the bubbly. When an Fe burns out it's because of the effort, when an Fi burns out it's more because of the fatigue of experience.
    I think this is well-expressed. Fe folks, what think you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Very simple, if it's the look I think it is, it's is the equivalent of and that will get you an instant and very strong
    No, it's not that look. I wouldn't insult you with that sweetie! It's the look that says, and mostly in a work (or occasionally a social) environment, "danger, stop ... you are going down a path and no one is following you and they're starting to judge you and not even listen to you or take you seriously!" Sometimes I offer my "Fi warning look" but I can't stop you! LOL, not that it would matter I guess, I just wonder why I feel like you see it and I think you understand it, but don't pay attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Peacebaby has often noted that the uumlau "childlike Fi" is not really quite accurate...However I wonder if this has to do with how refined and mature Fi is in an INFP or even very good ENFP users like Satine or SS-where Fi has a lot of resolution in it's value sets. It still exudes kindness and caring, but wisdom as well...I dunno...
    Perhaps the first step to growing one's Fi is to acknowledge it, much as a parent listens patiently to a child. But ... that does not make Fi child-like.

    Personally I could only get stronger by shifting my attitude away from such a limiting perspective.

    I just ... hesitate to endorse this perspective of Fi. It's a path that belies true growth, denies the inherent wisdom of the function, relegates it to the back seat of the car.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Assuming that people who cannot read one's mind and do for one exactly what one wants, when one wants it are morally lacking is the Fe hubris. Yes, I know, Fe feels like it make reasonable concessions, that it doesn't expect mind reading, and so on, but when push comes to shove (and this is real life experience talking), Fe will insist that whatever social cue was plainly obvious and that not acting on it is a moral deficiency -- that lack of awareness is not an excuse, that one should (morally!) be more socially aware.
    Well expressed from my POV ... and it is interesting to observe how the Fe "rules" change from group to group ... it's fascinating and dynamic to keep track of something that seems so malleable and changes according to circumstance.

    The Fe "rules" of my family are different than my husband's family, and those different from the many work environments I have been exposed to. Of course, then there's the larger sphere of what constitutes a "group" and then there's a core of our societal values - layers upon layers of Fe. The nuances can be enormous.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Why is the feeling of "owing" someone so awful? It's not that someone is keeping score. It's sort of the equivalent of splitting up chores between two people in the house or of one person cooking supper and the other one cleaning up after.
    @bold: But that is keeping score, is it not? I don't disagree with the sentiment, the equality of it, but it is a "check and balance" system.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To Fe using onlookers, it seemed very obvious what was going on. To Fi looking onlookers, it seemed judgemental and like I was being unfair and stuck in my own mode of communication, expecting you to adjust.
    As it was your thread, it seemed you felt the onus was on EW to understand and back off. Your warning signs are not as obvious to an Fi user as an Fe one. Any Fe user lacking the context you possessed would not have been as reactive to EW's approach, but would have become wary.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    Ahhhh, ok i see. This is actually very interesting because not wanting to waste peoples time is exactly why I don't speak unless I have some relevant experience. Maybe experience isn't necessarily the best word, but if i have little to no connection to the situation, then me wildly speculating doesn't strike me as being very productive...unless i'm under the impression that that is what I am being asked to do.

    this is the first time I've really spoken up in the thread because until now I didn't have what i perceive as anything meaningful to say. That doesn't mean the topic itself wasn't important to me. Again, quite the opposite, since it was important and interesting to me I didn't want to ruin it with baseless opinion so instead I chose to read/listen as intently as possible. It has very little to do with consciously wanting to make the conversation about me, although I see what you're saying and I certainly see how it can be perceived that way.

    When i talk about wanting to have relevant personal experience it's not that I'm necessarily talking about a personal experience specifically, but i'm well aware that my experiences colour my perspective. If i have no experience/connection/whatever you want to call it, i'm well aware that this also colours my perspective.

    In this case i had absolutely NO idea how to answer this question. I had zero common ground or connection with this question. I don't know how an Fe user should get back on the subject they want to vent about. I don't see me taking shots in the dark as adding constructively to the dialogue.

    "Maybe just say let's get back on topic?" is what i would be inclined to say, but I have no idea. Is this helpful to fidelia? What does that have to do with Fe exactly? is this an important contribution to the topic at hand? it didn't look like it to me, so in my eyes it's best to keep my mouth shut. The way i see it, THIS is something that would waste her time and probably mine too.

    I think this is exactly it. It's not to say that only things that are relevant to me are worth discussing; quite the opposite actually. It's more that if I'm going to participate in a discussion then I want my contributions to actually be relevant. As an Fi user, I do that through Fi.

    I think an immature person with Fi may keep bringing the conversation back to themselves in a ridiculously selfish manner, but even a mature ENFP is probably going to try to relate to you (connect with you, share with you, try to make you feel understood, attempt to give advice, get a grasp on the situation) by sharing anecdotes and personal experiences.

    The polite way the Fe user would bring things back to themselves is "I really need to vent right now. Can I get you to listen?" I would think any mature ENFP is going to automatically want to give you the listening ear that you need, understanding at that point.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    My issues with ENFPs, and they seem quite common..

    Jumping to conclusions and reacting to them before all the facts are known.

    Anyone seen that Video that was posted a few days ago about the guy who went to Europe for 2 weeks and His girlfriend seemed oblivious to the fact he was leaving and spent the next 2 weeks reacting rather poorly?

    That is an extreme case of what I mean.

    And...

    They seem to be very good at the labeling game. Like what I mean is. If I say am against the idea of a gay pride parade, I am not asked why or to explain myself.. Nope.. I am homophobic.
    That video was of a person with emotional problems, not one of a "healthy" ENFP. In fact anyone with borderline personality disorder or even abandonment issues could act like that.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    I read somewhere once that an INFJ is the only type that can convince an ENFP to give up their life of crime. To which I thought, in typical ENFP fashion, "hmpf. I have no intentions of giving up my figurative life of crime."
    I think an INFJ or ISFJ that I love and respect could probably convince me to change or do things differently more than any other types. There is something about the more subtle nudge of auxillary Fe, as opposed to the more obvious Fe dom...and not to mention, combined probably with a healthy dose of Ti...that makes me want to behave differently. They have a way of tapping into my need to want to please or care for others, and can point out my flaws in a more humble and less hurtful way than some other types. The right IxFJ can totally reign me in.

    It has to be someone I love and respect though. Some random IxFJ passive-aggressively harping on me as a stranger or casual acquaintence isn't going to do much better than an ExFJ or ENTP would do....the only difference would be that I'd probably get into a confrontation with the ExFJ or ENTP, and just quietly roll my eyes or think thoughts in my head toward the IxFJ...something about them man, I don't want to fight with them, unless they're really bad in their ExTP shadow and actively trying to provoke me.

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