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  1. #131
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixelholic View Post
    Sometimes I can focus, sometimes I can't. I find it hard to follow discussions on forums after a while no matter what.

    Which is annoying because I'm really interested in this stuff.
    Yep. I really want to but focusing is hard. Especially when I have nothing different from a different perspective to add. So I'll just read bits and pieces cause my ENFP-ness is preventing me from reading the whole thing. This sometimes happens to me.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's interesting to know. So state of mind and writing style both impact your ability to persevere through a chunk of writing?

    Here's another question (not meant confrontationally) - Why do ENFPs not answer questions directly? I've asked 5 or 6 here and gotten almost no response. What response there was was was an expression of personal experience. Which is informative, but it interests me that the processing seems to be different. If I'm asked a question, I end up writing a book on it after considering it from all the angles possible.
    I believe that's how we process understanding. From how we relate to it from our experiences. Speaking about anything but personal experiences would seem inauthentic.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  3. #133
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    I believe that's how we process understanding. From how we relate to it from our experiences. Speaking about anything but personal experiences would seem inauthentic.
    Isn't that like saying that the subjective experiences of others are invalid, in some way?

  4. #134
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Isn't that like saying that the subjective experiences of others are invalid, in some way?
    i don't see how she was saying that at all. What authority do I have to speak about anything other than my own experiences when there's a high probability that they make me see things very differently than others do? Unless I am pretty well versed in the subject or i have my own experience, i generally just keep quiet and listen to what others have to say because the subjective experiences of others are valid.
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  5. #135
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    i don't see how she was saying that at all. What authority do I have to speak about anything other than my own experiences when there's a high probability that they make me see things very different from others? Unless I am pretty well versed in the subject or i have my own experience, i generally just keep quiet and listen to what others have to say because the subjective experiences of others are valid.
    You certainly have authority as someone who may be impacted by their actions, or in the example here, you were granted authority by someone who asked you a direct question.

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    You certainly have authority as someone who may be impacted by their actions
    Well yeah, and in that case I would have my own personal experience as someone who is affected by the actions of others.

    or in the example here, you were granted authority by someone who asked you a direct question.
    I might have been granted authority, so to speak, but if i don't really have anything to talk about then i'm not going to just take it for the sake of taking it; i'm probably going to listen/read what other people with more knowledge have to say and mull that around in my head until I can relate and want to make some connections. I find discussion to be more efficient and productive if I speak when i have what i perceive as enough knowledge or experience and until then I listen to those who do speak because i presume they do have the knowledge or experience.

    I haven't said a whole lot of anything in this thread because I just didn't have much to contribute (and i've been moving into a new apartment ). I didn't answer any of fidelia's questions because I didn't have an answer.
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  7. #137
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Let's look at this question:

    "In the kind of conversation that 21% used as an example, how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about?"

    At this point, there's no reason to hear about a similar situation you've been through. To put it quite bluntly, if I were fidelia, I just wouldn't care. You're doing something for me, right now, and it's rude to yank the spotlight back on oneself through that sort of thing (at least, that's how it's perceived).

    It's all right if you want to go through the experience in your head, but she just wants the nugget of relevant information burrowed within it: "what's the point that things went bad, and how could they have gone better?" That's it, because she's got a busy life as well, and going on and on about something that bears little relevance in her life is wasting her time. That may not seem very nice, but that's how I at least perceive it.

  8. #138
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't think I'd perceive it so much as a waste of time. However, I would wonder probably why the person didn't answer the question directly. I mean, I would probably use the story, but I'd try to make the point as well so that it didn't get obscured. I realize this isn't how everyone works though. I think it's maybe similar to why I feel the need to explain to you all my thought processes (Ti) when you probably would prefer the basic facts (Te). All that other stuff (which makes up the wall of text) seems to obscure my point. My guess is that because Fi is an introverted function, it does the the same thing, but with experiences and feelings. What do you guys think?

    One of my main concerns is that in telling the story, often the ENFP never gets back to the issue at hand (which ironically is how to get back to the issue at hand!).

    Going into an ENFP thread though, I don't expect you to change your most natural method of communication. This is your space, and so it makes sense that you'd respond in the way that is comfortable for you. I have learned a lot so far even in the ways that you tend to process information and respond to it. A thread like the INFJ one isn't going to happen in the same way here because the people hosting are going to respond in ENFP ways, not INFJ ways, and that's okay.

    One of the reasons that I don't naturally like just doing the bold/bullet points is that I'm afraid someone WILL only read them and not get the context. Maybe us wanting the direct answer is the equivalent of wanting the highlights but getting bogged down in the details.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Let's look at this question:

    "In the kind of conversation that 21% used as an example, how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about?"
    perfect, this is the example question i was planning on using

    At this point, there's no reason to hear about a similar situation you've been through. To put it quite bluntly, if I were fidelia, I just wouldn't care. You're doing something for me, right now, and it's rude to yank the spotlight back on oneself through that sort of thing (at least, that's how it's perceived).

    It's all right if you want to go through the experience in your head, but she just wants the nugget of relevant information burrowed within it: "what's the point that things went bad, and how could they have gone better?" That's it, because she's got a busy life as well, and going on and on about something that bears little relevance in her life is wasting her time. That may not seem very nice, but that's how I at least perceive it.
    Ahhhh, ok i see. This is actually very interesting because not wanting to waste peoples time is exactly why I don't speak unless I have some relevant experience. Maybe experience isn't necessarily the best word, but if i have little to no connection to the situation, then me wildly speculating doesn't strike me as being very productive...unless i'm under the impression that that is what I am being asked to do.

    this is the first time I've really spoken up in the thread because until now I didn't have what i perceive as anything meaningful to say. That doesn't mean the topic itself wasn't important to me. Again, quite the opposite, since it was important and interesting to me I didn't want to ruin it with baseless opinion so instead I chose to read/listen as intently as possible. It has very little to do with consciously wanting to make the conversation about me, although I see what you're saying and I certainly see how it can be perceived that way.

    When i talk about wanting to have relevant personal experience it's not that I'm necessarily talking about a personal experience specifically, but i'm well aware that my experiences colour my perspective. If i have no experience/connection/whatever you want to call it, i'm well aware that this also colours my perspective.

    In this case i had absolutely NO idea how to answer this question. I had zero common ground or connection with this question. I don't know how an Fe user should get back on the subject they want to vent about. I don't see me taking shots in the dark as adding constructively to the dialogue.

    "Maybe just say let's get back on topic?" is what i would be inclined to say, but I have no idea. Is this helpful to fidelia? What does that have to do with Fe exactly? is this an important contribution to the topic at hand? it didn't look like it to me, so in my eyes it's best to keep my mouth shut. The way i see it, THIS is something that would waste her time and probably mine too.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think it's maybe similar to why I feel the need to explain to you all my thought processes (Ti) when you probably would prefer the basic facts (Te). All that other stuff (which makes up the wall of text) seems to obscure my point. My guess is that because Fi is an introverted function, it does the the same thing, but with experiences and feelings. What do you guys think?
    I think this is exactly it. It's not to say that only things that are relevant to me are worth discussing; quite the opposite actually. It's more that if I'm going to participate in a discussion then I want my contributions to actually be relevant. As an Fi user, I do that through Fi.
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  10. #140
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Ack! Just posted a reply and it wouldn't send.

    Anyway, I wouldn't feel that you were wasting my time by telling a story. I would only be concerned that your point would be obscured by the story, unless you drew a line to it at the end for me. I also would be concerned that in telling the story, you would make a lot of Ne connections and we would never get back to the original point or question (which is how to redirect the person back to the original topic!).

    I feel the need to explain my thought processes (Ti) because they are precise and have shades of thought that I think will give you context for my question. You guys get bogged down in those details (Te) and would like a simplified, bullet style post to respond to. Conversely, you want to tell me stories about your own experience (Fi). I would prefer a simplification by addressing the direct question because I use a more extroverted function there (Fe).

    It's actually really informative to me to see how divergent this thread is from the INFJ one simply because those hosting process things much differently. I don't expect you to respond to me in a different way than you are accustomed to because you are the hosts. I can still learn a lot from what is done DIFFERENTLY than what I'd expect or what would naturally make sense to me.

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