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  1. #111
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Wow, this thread goes fast

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Wait a minute. My SO just came in looking for me to see where I went. He stuck his head in the door and said that I needed to leave the psychology nerd patrol until later
    I like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think part of it is that trying to adjust for other people is seen as a deposit into their emotional bank account. That investment can be withdrawn at some point later if the Fe user doesn't have the resources to do what they would normally do. Not trying to adjust is seen as a withdrawal. The Fe user sometimes feels like they have been making a lot of deposits, while the Fi user is taking out a lot of withdrawals. My guess is that while Fe kind of has a regular, automatic savings plan of little bits each month, Fi will now and then win the lottery and then deposit tons (although the Fe user doesn't know that they are planning to). The Fi user knows they are going to be generous when they do have resources and so they feel misjudged and poorly characterized when they don't make any deposits when the Fe person thinks they should and decide they won't even try to borrow the money to make a deposit, even though they might have otherwise. I may be totally mistaken though.
    I love this analogy! Yes, it feels like that -- Our Joint Account of Love (as cheesy as it might sound) The bolded part is right on

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In the kind of conversation that 21% used as an example, how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    back to Fidelia's question about how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about...
    For this, I think if I'm close enough to you and you are oblivious to the fact that I need to vent, I will find a way to let you know. So unless the other party keeps going on and on without stopping to breathe, I think I can sneak it in somewhere that I am upset. Usually it's done by letting you vent until you are done with it and we reach some sort of conclusion (like we agree on what a big jerk person X is after what s/he did to you), then I will go on and say something like "Yes, you won't believe what s/he did to me today *start vent*"

    However, this is only done if I am certain that you care about me enough to care about what I have to say on the matter. For people who I don't feel close with, if you miss the cue, I won't try to return to the subject because I don't want to be rude by making you talk about my problem when you are not that interested.

    I know it sounds bad to be this aware of conversational cues. You might be wondering if nothing is spontaneous/true/uncalculated at all? The answer is yes and no. When I feel extremely safe, all the calculations drop away, but still, I am always aware of how my emotions and actions might affect you. So if you show the slightest sign of discomfort, I take it that our "team" (collective happiness) is in trouble and I will immediately adjust my mood/tone to make the situation good for us again. Hope that makes sense

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I am also embarrassed to admit that while I have been interested in MBTI for several years...I apparently missed completely that there was this 'whole nuther' function called Fe. It didn't occur to me that this function was practically a photo negative of Fi, etc. etc. (I had to put in the 2 etc. because I don't really know what I'm talking about here). Basically, I didn't 'get' that there were people in this world that not only would NOT tell me if I upset them, hurt them, annoyed them...but that they could hide/control their feelings so well that I wouldn't even be able to make the connection between me, our communication & their feelings about our communication.
    ...
    I am not used to the 'more formal' Fe function. And it often feels like I am trying to make room in my brain to fit what still feels like 'all these very specific rules & regulations' to me...so far removed from my more 'thoughtless but sincerely well-meaning' style.
    StarryKnights, I really appreciate your posts and I totally understand where you are coming from. I grew up in a pure Fe family, and when I first experienced Fi I was completely baffled. I totally agree that to non-Fe-users, Fe can seem to be just about rules and regulations, because that's the most blatant aspect of it and one that you will have the most (negative) exposure to. I think healthy Fe users learn to see past all the surface interactions and try to gauge your true intentions.

    I don't like "formal social rules" either, and usually I feel relieved when I'm close enough to someone I don't have to do it anymore. Usually, if I love you and I know you love me, I will let you know what I'm really feeling and if I need to vent I will say so.

    However, on a deeper level, Fe is still different from Fi in that it's all about the team spirit. We are a team. We do whatever it takes for the good of the team ("us"). Fidelia's post about the emotional bank account illustrates it very well. I think as long as we know you are still invested (and are still interested in making those deposits <translate: care about us>) we will be fine with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    but my male INFJ...I can remember having this painful sense of him feeling obligated to me...maybe because I had unwittingly made a 'deposit'. Of him giving...when he was depleated and me not being able to convince him that he owed me nothing.

    I remember me telling him (and I am quite certain he did not understand my language as I don't think this convo went over all that good)...IF you and I are in a relationship...we don't have to be this careful because... If we are in a relationship...I will disappoint you, I will hurt you. I don't know when it will happen...I know not why...or to what extent...but I will hurt you. Not once or twice...but several times for as long as we are together. YOu will do the same to me. It is unavoidable.

    I believe I went on to say...we can decide to trust that each other is doing their best and would never intentionally hurt the other...or we can keep 'score'.

    Again...what I wrote above sounds like an oversimplification of Fe. And understanding even the slightest bit with regards to this function now makes me see how this conversation would either hurt or offend my male INFJ.

    But yah...I give when I can. And the giving is removed from the love somehow.
    I think my INFP and I had a similar conversation about this early on, and in a way I feel your frustration, because I know what you were trying to say. I tried to tell him about how Fe works and he kept saying to me how there shouldn't be "roles" and "rules" -- he said he didn't want that -- he wanted me to be me. That wasn't exactly the point I was trying to tell him, but I thought it was sweet. I think what you were trying to say is "I don't love you because you are perfect and do all the right things. I love you because you are you, and even if we have misunderstandings and unintentionally hurt each other, I will still love you because you are you." (And if you add a "but we will try to work out how to make it best for us" then it's a total awwww )

    As you get closer and closer, the INFJ will feel less pressure to be "perfect" and that's a sign of trust. I think Fi has the loving capacity to draw INFJs out to be truly themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Your assertion that the other person doesn't need to give anything sometimes can feel like their attempts to show care towards you are unneeded and unwanted. They read it as rejection, rather than acceptance and a lack of obligation.

    I don't think we generally think of it in terms of keeping score. However, if you noticed that something in your relationship seemed consistently one-sided, wouldn't you start to wonder why after awhile? I think the same principle is at work, but about smaller things than would be ones that were a problem for you.

    I understand the need for an ongoing love that isn't contingent on behaviour that day. Perhaps this problem you mentioned has something to do with what we talked about regarding Fe needing consistent behaviour cumulated over a period of time, whereas ENFPs seem more able to accept someone as they are that day and take what they see at face value rather than reading more into it. We expect that we will end up hurting people inadvertantly and being hurt by them. However, if I point out what hurts me, it surprises me when that seems to be reacted to with anger and opposition, because I think I'm just trying to avoid a buildup of resentment down the road by making you aware of it and I hope for you to do the same, even though it will be painful. ENFPs on the other hand feel that by reacting with hurt or anger, we are misunderstanding their good intentions at their core and also keeping score of every little thing they do wrong.

    Sacrifice is a very big part of how I experience love. If I see that someone else has gone out of their way for me, it helps me rein in my own thoughts, feelings and behaviour and makes me feel cared for and appreciated. If I want someone to feel loved and cared for, I try to make a point of making adjustments for them that involve some degree of personal sacrifice. If those go completely unnoticed or unappreciated though, the problem is that I feel rejection. It's not a thought that if I do this for you, it will afford me this much leaway or that it will obligate you to this degree. On the other hand, if I consistently am sacrificing stuff and it's not acknowledged or appreciated and I'm not given an alternate way of showing that I care, it ends up with built up resentment and a sense of alienation.
    Completely agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    See, all of this reinforces an old pair of disproven schemata of mine.
    Fe = Guilt orientation
    Fi = Shame orientation
    I agree with Fe guilt. All Fe people I know feel guilty all the time. Could you elaborate more about the Fi sense of shame? I know lots of INFPs feel regret, but that's not exactly shame...


    Multi-quotes are confusing...

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    For real, reading five paragraphs is that hard?
    Yes. Okay, I said it. Yah.

    BUT I am reading. I haven't responded yet because I am starting to become confused about a few things with regards to my own behavior (what is the real reason I do this or that...etc.) I see this as an extreme positive.

    Comparing/Contrasting functions here...specifically with the INFJ...is proving to be more enlightening than I had anticipated (and my expectations were already quite high).

    The questions and examples are really great. I want to explain myself as authentically as I can.

  3. #113
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time. I thought about trying to point form it, but I felt like I couldn't explain it properly with only point form. I'm seeing that this is a big problem for me doing any writing to Te users. Working on changing that. Ti just likes the details!

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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    I'm not too big on the hurt word being used in this thread either, because I rarely feel hurt or insulted. Sometimes shamed but that is self imposed because I have taken actions which I disagree with. The most common thing I feel when I get a bit moody is stuck or boxed in. I'm presented with a situation I don't disagree with but can't adapt to or work within, and drive myself crazy trying to see a satisfactory way out. I've got a bad habit of not wanting to burden people or share the load either, which can stop things being resolved as quickly.
    Ok, I have to agree with this. I guess by 'hurt values' I was more implying that someone had did something I couldn't agree with and considered as unfair or uncalled for. Actually being hurt is something very rare for me, and I think it's probably even more rare that I tell someone about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    However, on a deeper level, Fe is still different from Fi in that it's all about the team spirit. We are a team. We do whatever it takes for the good of the team ("us"). Fidelia's post about the emotional bank account illustrates it very well. I think as long as we know you are still invested (and are still interested in making those deposits <translate: care about us>) we will be fine with it.
    Yeah, this rings very true. I think alot of the issues with ENFPs leading people on stem from the fact that Fe users would only share their deepest feelings with someone close to them while an Fi user could do it with anyone. Likewise, an Fe user would help out a close friend any day, while an Fi user would help out someone in need and deserving of help any day (to this, a friend may not always qualify).

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    As you get closer and closer, the INFJ will feel less pressure to be "perfect" and that's a sign of trust. I think Fi has the loving capacity to draw INFJs out to be truly themselves.
    This goes completely with the model actually, since Je is what makes people want to seem perfect right? Ji-users want everything to be perfect in their own head but appearances are not as important. I guess this is why we feel like you are misjudging us at times. When you believe that our intentions are not sincere simply becuase we fail to keep up a perfect Fe performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I agree with Fe guilt. All Fe people I know feel guilty all the time. Could you elaborate more about the Fi sense of shame? I know lots of INFPs feel regret, but that's not exactly shame...
    I think this goes with the fact that an Fi user who fails to uphold his values feels unworthy for not sticking to them. As noigmn said, we feel ashamed because we have taken actions we disagree with. This probably is even more important to us since it is our values that makes us want to view ourselves as good people, not every action we take, if we go against our values we feel like evil people.


    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Multi-quotes are confusing...
    Edit: I usually don't like the words good and evil, it is more a metaphor.
    Ennea:7w8sx/so (?)
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    So apparently I might be epileptic. Thanks brain, keep malfunctioning. I didn't think it could be that bad seeing starfalls in bookshelves. I just thought I was psychotic.

  5. #115
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that our natural inclinations do come more out of these functions than out of a conscious decision to just be that way. However, I would argue that we most certainly aren't a prisoner to those functions. As we mature, I think we should be able to start seeing the value in other ways of doing things, while still remaining true to who we are. Maybe that comes with establishing enough self-identity (figuring out what we naturally do in relation to what others naturally do) to then focus our attentions further afield and work on balancing some things out.

    Would you say then that a Fe user should try to get into the habit of being blunter and more direct so that they convey their message before they get frustrated and start attributing motives to the ENFP that are not there?

    Regarding the other thread and our little clash - to me I thought I was clearly telling you "You are being intrusive, back off before I start biting back". As you persisted, I got more direct and blunt (in a real life circumstance I would have just abandoned the situation at that point because you were not close to me and we didn't need to work/live together). That kind of bluntness is very unusual for me to display. Even then, it was interpreted by other NFPs as being anger. There may have been frustration that the message wasn't getting through when I felt like I had tried rephrasing it in several different ways, but my intent was more to alert you to a possible pack of angry INFJs that were going to further frustrate you and end up eating you alive if you persisted in the same vein. It was more like when someone yells "Get out of there now! Danger!" even though normally it's not polite to yell or it may seem kind of short. What cafe said was terribly direct compared to what you would usually hear and yet there was still no verbal acknowledgment that you had heard the warning and were planning to change courses. I think for us, that verbal acknowledgment is huge, or we will just keep restating our case.

    In you people's world, are you more likely to just take it as useful information and start thinking of a Te solution? Would it have been better to just say right out - "You are being intrusive and someone is going to kill you if you keep on like this?" That feels rather insensitive and rejecting to me, but I'm not sure what the appropriate route would be. To Fe using onlookers, it seemed very obvious what was going on. To Fi looking onlookers, it seemed judgemental and like I was being unfair and stuck in my own mode of communication, expecting you to adjust. I also felt like I was not just leaving you to flounder, as I had suggested what would get your point across more effectively and it didn't seem to be acknowledged, nor the information used.

    I have had a couple of little exchanges with Victor. I know that I stepped on one of his Fi values. He attaches a lot of value and significance to people reading Wind And The Willows aloud together. Sometimes it seems like that Fi desire to share can seem like imposing (that's not the right word, but I don't have a good one to express it) and green eggs and ham-ish when others aren't responding affirmatively. I tried talking directly in private, but there was no response, so I decided to do it publicly in a thread where he had brought up reading the book together even though there was no logical connection to the content of the thread and where the person had told him that they thought his invitation was creepy. I realized I was doing it, but at the same time I figured that maybe that amount of bluntness would at least provoke discussion of the reasons for persisting or what the value he attached to that activity was, which is really what I wanted. I needed enough information to work with so that I could interpret his actions in a more favourable light, rather than just seeing him as persistent and ignoring other people's social clues. What would have been a better route to go? He saw me as attacking him, but I felt that when I was polite, the message was not getting through. I wasn't being offered another way to go about understanding it better, so I ended up weighing the costs vs benefits and giving it a shot.

    This has also happened the couple of times that I've run into a Fi wall with an NFP. I may have unknowingly stepped on a value of theirs. However, when I've tried to understand what it is that I did better, they do not want to discuss it. If I apologize, it seems to them to be insincere. If I don't understand exactly what the problem is, I can't get enough information to see what it is and I can't apologize, it seems that the other person is not very solution-oriented and the behaviour seems immature and selfish to me. What should I be doing differently that would yield more positive results? Sometimes it just feels like you can't win. I know I'm seeing this is a negative light and so I would like to understand it better.
    Fidelia, I really loved what you wrote here. It's very honest and thoughtful; and it moved me very much.

    I'm working on a major home project today so I will be offline (except for quick glimpses) until this evening. I was hoping that in the interim, you could answer a question that would help me respond to what you wrote here.

    Why did you (and other INFJs) think what I posted on the INFJ Common Issues thread was intrusive? I ask because the origins of why you felt your boundaries breached will inform my response.

    Thanks in advance. I'm looking forward to reading what you have to say.

    Everyone have a great day! See you all tonight.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #116
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey EW - Just a couple of thoughts. First I think that Fe users are actually MORE likely to help a random person that we don't have a lot of emotional connection to than a Fi person. Mostly I find that they need things to be more personalized before they get involved. Now that may just be an INFP thing, I'm not sure. I know that ENFPs will see someone crying and regardless of their relationship to them will go up and hug them etc and start talking to them. A Fe user probably would wait more to see if they are welcome to go again and comfort. The way we get involved with other people is different for sure. I think we remain more detached or are more likely to listen to the other person or give them directions for getting to the emotional place they want to go. A Fi user is going to become very personally involved and will make the journey right with them. That means that there are less people they can do that with at a time.

    Secondly, as to why the INFJs were finding you intrusive?

    You wanted to tell us how to change when you hadn't been asked (that whole Te thing we discussed) and we didn't feel that you had enough background information to inform your advice. Going into a situation and communicating in a different style is something that we would normally try to find our way around and try to look at from your perspective. Probably previous history made us conclude sooner though that you weren't trying to listen (although we would have drawn that conclusion even without) but preferred to tell us what to do.

    You didn't acknowledge anything we had said to either correct misperceptions on your part or to take a new course of action when what you were doing wasn't working, even though we gave you some ideas.

    When the tone started getting more blunt and direct (which from us is very rare and is a huge sign that you have crossed a line), you seemed oblivious to that fact and continued on as if everything was normal. I think that the INFJs could have dealt okay with you expressing the sentiments you did, but it was way too soon for the amount of acquaintance that you had with us (critical=more acquaintance, more authority or very very careful approach). This felt like a stranger (wearing mom jeans or something equally bad) coming and tapping us on the shoulder and telling us how we need to change how we dress completely.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey EW - Just a couple of thoughts. First I think that Fe users are actually MORE likely to help a random person that we don't have a lot of emotional connection to than a Fi person. Mostly I find that they need things to be more personalized before they get involved. Now that may just be an INFP thing, I'm not sure. I know that ENFPs will see someone crying and regardless of their relationship to them will go up and hug them etc and start talking to them. A Fe user probably would wait more to see if they are welcome to go again and comfort. The way we get involved with other people is different for sure. I think we remain more detached or are more likely to listen to the other person or give them directions for getting to the emotional place they want to go. A Fi user is going to become very personally involved and will make the journey right with them. That means that there are less people they can do that with at a time.
    This is a good point. If I were to add anything (from a non-dom/aux perspective), it's that it seems like the Fi approach is to assuage the personal unease that comes from "mirroring" that other person's emotions, while the Fe approach is to settle the unease "in the air".

    It seems to me that emotional states can be analogized to the weather, with Fe as the "meteorologist." It can be predicted to some extent, and changes from person to person, but there is an aggregate climate (the group dynamic), and sometimes, there's nothing you can do but hide from the storm and wait for it to rain itself out. Unfortunately, beyond preparation and clean-up, there's little the meteorologist can do once the storm's actually hitting. Whereas Fi is more like the "storm chaser" - wanting to study the phenomenon from within, for personal satisfaction generally, but can provide useful information to help others, and is usually right there to help clean up the mess. Of course, the danger there is that storms can be deadly.

    This isn't a perfect analogy, but it's something to work with.

    Secondly, as to why the INFJs were finding you intrusive? Going into situation and communicating in a different style is something that we would normally try to find our way around and try to look at from your perspective. Probably previous history made us conclude sooner though that you weren't trying to listen (although we would have drawn that conclusion even without). Rather you wanted to tell us how to change when you hadn't been asked (that whole Te thing we discussed) and we didn't feel that you had enough background information to inform your advice. Secondly you didn't acknowledge anything we had said to either correct misperceptions on your part or to take a new course of action when what you were doing wasn't working, even though we gave you some ideas. Finally, when the tone started getting more blunt and direct (which from us is very rare and is a huge sign that you have crossed a line), you seemed oblivious to that fact and continued on as if everything was normal.
    In other words, being an "Ugly American tourist"

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    me too...i find it extremely unfortunate...i just can't make myself read them. :/
    I'm scrolling down and reading anything that is in bold

  9. #119
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    The most precious gift we can offer others is our presence.
    When mindfulness embraces those we love, they will bloom like flowers.
    ” - Thich Nhat Hanh

    I think it's interesting that some of the ENFPs on this thread have expressed that they just can't scale walls of text. I've seen other ENFPs comment on other threads that they usually read only the first sentence of a post before responding to it.

    I assume that most people know that ENFPs and ENTPs are notorious for being easily distracted… in fact, several of my ENFP and ENTP friends are on medicine for Adult ADD. But what’s really interesting to me is how ENFPs/ENTPs self-regulate the amount of information they take in. I think that Ne Doms (i.e., ENFPs and ENTPs) have a harder time shutting off outside distractions than most other types… which means they are prone to throttle information… like skipping over walls of text that might demand their consideration.

    This is one of the reasons I need alone time on a regular basis. It’s like I can’t shut off my Ne which is, in conjunction with my Fi, constantly reading the emotional tenor of the people around me. And sometimes I can’t bear this constant stream of information. The only way I seem to be able to stop it, is to be alone.

    I first became aware of the benefits of throttling incoming information when I was in graduate school. I and my cohorts were assigned as many as 10-15 books per week. This was in addition to the academic journals in our field we had to scrutinize. Such a reading schedule was nearly impossible to keep up with, regardless of personality type.

    I, like my classmates, was overwhelmed by the workload. I was a full-time Ph.D. student, a part-time graduate teaching assistant, a freelance writer (to supplement my income), and a wife with typical spousal responsibilities. To survive, I had to learn some real-politick-grad-student survival skills, which included being able to skim a book, quickly determine its salient points, and then speak thoughtfully and articulately on these in graduate seminar.

    I was brilliant at this. Really. It played to all my ENFP skills. In fact, my skills became so renowned that my fellow graduate students started a betting pool on whether or not I would get publicly praised by my more curmudgeonly professors for books I hadn’t read. I enjoyed the attention immensely. And, for the first time I became aware of (and started to formally cultivate) my gift of the gab.

    I was surprised to find that I could speak more articulately if I hadn’t read the assigned reading material thoroughly. < I ask you to re-read this statement because I think this is the heart of the matter.

    In other words, it was because I hadn’t read the assignment in its entirety, I was able to better pontificate on the salient points. By skimming the reading, I prevented myself from being distracted by all the intellectual permutations that I could see so easily with my Ne. These endless possibilities were overwhelming… and the idea of having to sort all this extra information derived from a more thorough treatment of the reading was daunting.

    Grad school was long ago, but I still throttle incoming information by a variety of methods. For example, I will take a few days off to reflect before posting to a thread on this very forum. Or, I might skim a thread, at first skipping walls of text, until I’m able to come back to the thread when my Ne isn’t overly stimulated. And, when my Ne is overstimulated and I’m under stress, I still rely on my ability to speak and write well. This is why it’s sometimes way easier for me to post something on this thread, than it is for me to read it carefully and thoroughly.

    So I think the moral of the story here is that Ne Doms sometimes have to throttle their information intake as a means of self-preservation. And that it is sometimes easier for them to express themselves than to listen carefully. And, also that it is easy for an Ne Dom to rely too much on these crutches to navigate their worlds.

    This is why I’ve worked very hard to not overly rely on my bull sh*tting abilities, in order to be able to skate by without reading the entire book cover-to-cover. And why I consciously try avoid just skimming things for the salient points, in lieu of thoughtful reading and thorough comprehension. It’s a struggle everyday. And, I don’t always succeed. But when I do, I'm a better person for it.*




    *One of the things that has really helped me is practicing Mindfulness meditation. If you don't know what mindfulness is, I recommend you Google the term. Here's a quick summary I found on the Web.

    Mindfulness is focused awareness of the present moment. Mindfulness lets us be fully conscious of a simple sensation like the warmth of sunlight or of the complex interplay between our thoughts and feelings.

    By tuning in to mental processes, we are able to recognize that our thoughts are just thoughts; they don't necessarily represent reality. We can observe them rather than being subject to them.

    Mindfulness lets us absorb the richness of the moment instead of going through life with half of our attention on the past or future or our own mental chatter. The self-knowledge that comes from mindfulness lets us be more intentional in choosing priorities and actions that fit our life mission.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

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    Had never thought about it that way - as overload because it would spawn all sort of new ideas and connections. Obviously bullet points are the way to go and bolding. Aside from that any suggestions for communicating in a way that will hold an ENFP's attention?

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