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  1. #91
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    First of all, 21% (as usual) articulated what's going on here very well. I am in complete awe of how much I am a prisoner of these cognitive function I was born with. It is a very humbling experience if you stop and truly appreciate how so much of the essence of our personalities that we think of as being under our control is not.

    I winced and smiled when 21% described her INFP's "Wow-this-is-so-amazing-I-can't-think-of-anything-else episodes from time to time where you have to shake him and say 'Look at me!' before he notices you." This can be a regular problem for INFPs and ENFPs. I have had more than my share of these. In fact, I just ducked into my house for a cold drink from yard work and wandered over to my computer to catch up on this thread. I'm having one of those now... I'm going to have to force myself to go back outside to attend to the boring details of the matter at hand. I could easily lose track of time with this thread.

    Secondly, I just wanted to acknowledge that I completely see how Fidelia wasn't trying to argue that the Fe was was the right way. And, (others correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think most people took it that way. In fact, I'd say that an Fe user might be way more concerned that it would be taken that way than an Fi user would be prone to see such a comment as intrusive.

    (By the way, the reverse is true I think. For example, it NEVER even occurred to me that anyone would ever take my comments on the INFJ Common Issues thread as intrusive. But some people obviously did. <-- Again, a complete communication disconnect among people that typically are at the highest end of the bell curve when it comes to social awareness.)

    But back to Fidelia's question about how should a Fe user politely get back on to the subject they need to vent about...

    (Wait a minute. My SO just came in looking for me to see where I went. He stuck his head in the door and said that I needed to leave the psychology nerd patrol until later.)



    See I am teachable. More soon.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #92
    Awake Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think part of it is that trying to adjust for other people is seen as a deposit into their emotional bank account. That investment can be withdrawn at some point later if the Fe user doesn't have the resources to do what they would normally do. Not trying to adjust is seen as a withdrawal. The Fe user sometimes feels like they have been making a lot of deposits, while the Fi user is taking out a lot of withdrawals. My guess is that while Fe kind of has a regular, automatic savings plan of little bits each month, Fi will now and then win the lottery and then deposit tons (although the Fe user doesn't know that they are planning to). The Fi user knows they are going to be generous when they do have resources and so they feel misjudged and poorly characterized when they don't make any deposits when the Fe person thinks they should and decide they won't even try to borrow the money to make a deposit, even though they might have otherwise. I may be totally mistaken though.
    This passage is really bringing up something in me but I know not what and I want to take sometime to process - I like it!

    Some feelings that are floating around in my head right now...

    What you described above I sensed happening on some level with one of the INFJs in my life...the male (my female INFJ friend reminds me more of your style in the sense that she can 'cross-over'...translate things for me...and bring me into an attentive state when I am off in the clouds)...

    but my male INFJ...I can remember having this painful sense of him feeling obligated to me...maybe because I had unwittingly made a 'deposit'. Of him giving...when he was depleated and me not being able to convince him that he owed me nothing.

    I remember me telling him (and I am quite certain he did not understand my language as I don't think this convo went over all that good)...IF you and I are in a relationship...we don't have to be this careful because... If we are in a relationship...I will disappoint you, I will hurt you. I don't know when it will happen...I know not why...or to what extent...but I will hurt you. Not once or twice...but several times for as long as we are together. YOu will do the same to me. It is unavoidable.

    I believe I went on to say...we can decide to trust that each other is doing their best and would never intentionally hurt the other...or we can keep 'score'.

    Again...what I wrote above sounds like an oversimplification of Fe. And understanding even the slightest bit with regards to this function now makes me see how this conversation would either hurt or offend my male INFJ.

    But yah...I give when I can. And the giving is removed from the love somehow.

    I actually look forward to thinking on this more.

  3. #93
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Though unsure of my E/I, I will gladly try and oblige your request, Fidelia, as I do believe that your thread was and still is in more than one way illuminating.

    Fellow ENFP's, if I name stuff that you don't identify with or I forget stuff..lemme know
    I'd like to encourage the other types to start their own thread..much can be gained from it.


    Here goes:

    Misunderstandings:

    1) Weirdness. NeFi tends to give ENFPs a weird, zany kind of aura, making them come off as erratic, random, flaky, illogical and sometimes socially retarded, despite being so annoyingly likable. ENFPs tend to run circles around people and need to play with thoughts and ideas a bit before settling on a conclusion, to make sure they've seen it from all angles and to make sure it actually fits accurately into their inner world (or if their inner world needs adjusting). This playfulness can also be displayed just for fun, making it sometimes hard to see where the ENFP is going with a certain train of thought (if they're going somewhere at all with it). Rest assured though, there's always a motivation, drive and reason for it.

    2)Heart on the sleeve. ENFPs connect through Fi and Fi usually doesn't waste time getting to know someone. It jumps to the intimate part of the conversation as that is who the person *really* is..which is what is relevant to Fi. And that tends to either go over extremely well, to the point where people just end up telling them their life stories and childhood trauma's or...really badly, as people just consider it rude, inappropriate and impolite, not to mention wayyy too intense

    3) Flirting. Due to the ENFP tendency to jump right to the intimate part of the relationship (the need to get to know people for who they are) and them not receiving or losing the copy of the social guidelines manual, ENFPs are often perceived to be big flirts when they're actually just genuinly intrigued by people. (to avoid future derail on this, I'll admit that I too was like this but I have become a conscious flirt over time!)

    4) Crude and insensitive. Their Ne can sometimes get ahead of them, causing them to toss out blunt things before socially filtering them and framing them better. This especially happens when they're overly excited about some new piece of information.

    5) Attention whoring. Most ENFPs have no clue what they did wrong when they get accused of this and experience it as oppression of their right to express who they are. Once again, it's usually a clash of group values versus the need for authenticity, and a poor grasp of the social rules that is at the base of this. As they tend to experience things very profoundly, and they wear their hearts on their sleeves, the expression of these things can be perceived as an act of attention whoring, though most ENFPs don't have a clue how to play social games (once again, somehow we didn't get the manual ), though this may vary depending on the ENFP's surroundings while growing up.

    6) Making excuses and refusing to appologize. An ENFP will typically try to explain to the other person why they did something, not as a way to weasel out of the responsibility, but to increase understanding and harmony. Similarly, they will often not be aware of the fact that their transgression is once again in that social manual that everyone seems to know, and therefore not see it fit to actually appologize for something that to them was not intended in harm and in their eyes also didn't really harm anyone.

    7) Leading people on. As ENFPs tend to share intimate details easily with others, and often have others reciprocate, a misunderstanding can arise between the two people in that relationship as to the status of the other person. ENFPs tend to love easily and like spreading that love, making people feel loved and being loved in return. It creates a special harmony, a being in sync that's very pleasurable, as well as a bond which makes everyone feel safe. However, as time is limited and there are many people to get to know and love, it can put pressure on the already existing relationships. Also, Fi doesn't require frequent contact to keep this bond alive. This often leaves the other partner feeling hurt and rejected, while the ENFP's affection really hasn't waned at all. Similarly, it can give the illusion of a stronger bond than was intended by the ENFP:


    8) Not being thoughtful, reliable or considered loyal. It hurts an ENFP more than anything to hear that. The thing is, since we're stuck with our heads up in the clouds and, we value our own private time, we're a tad oblivious and we don't wanna be intrusive. That can feel like we don't care. Nothing could be further from the truth though. Ask. You'll find that an ENFP is rarely too busy not to help you, but you do have to ask. As we tend to be very easy-going and change our plans on the go, it's rarely an inconvenience to help out a friend in need. It is only if I see someone is truly overwhelmed with emotion that I'll prod them myself, to see if I can help.

    9) Always talking about ME. ENFPs tend to speak in the 'I'-person, because they experience everything in such an individualistic way. Add to that that we know most people find us weird and we don't wanna speak for others who might experience things different as we're often told that we're the outsiders anyways. On top of that there's a serious need to be understood as the desire to connect is there but clearly it's hard as we're weird This tends to grate people to no end, despite the good intentions of the ENFP as it seems to be all about 'him'. Also, we work with analogies a lot, which is our way of relating. When someone tells us something, the way to let them know that we understand what they're saying is by equally sharing a similar story. Quid pro quo basically. You tell me something about yourself and I'll sync up with you by sharing something similar about myself. This is the way to get to know each other. Unfortunately, we can get wrapped up in that process, and get overenthused in sharing...

    Tendencies:

    1) Chaos, chaos, chaos. My god, do we live in a world of chaos. Plz don't ask me where my phone is, or my keys, though I will find things that I don't use that often easily in my mess. And there's no way I have the attention span to actually make a system and stick to it

    2) Flakiness. Wherever the mood takes me, is where I go, making it hard to plan *anything* or not feel forced when I do agree to something when later I don't feel like it anymore

    3) Indecisiveness/procrastination Too many damned options and all of the appealing, or worse..all of them not good enough! What's an ENFP to do except for wait, procrastinate and hope it another option presents itself!

    4) Self-absorbed. Living with my head in the clouds, I don't always see what's going on around me, sorry, and I so don't know how to turn that off! Plz, if you need my help, I'll gladly give it to you, just tap me on the shoulder to get me back to reality though

    5) Drama Queen. Fi can feel sooooo f*cking intense, it burns. The pain can be overwhelming. Unloading on others however...not very nice, however hard it can be to contain yourself. Learning social rules and having a close friend who understands you is a definite must.

    6) Maintaining a network. My god, do I suck at that and does it drain me. But it is vital, if you care for your friends. I do my best to be there for my friends, but I warn them all in advance that if I ignore them, it's not on purpose and they just have to whack me harder over the head, coz I can be sometimes very hard to reach due to my obsession with new shiny and self-reflecting.

    7) No follow-through whatsoever. This is suchhhh a pain. There's so much to do an d so little time to do it in that often, when we start a project and see where it should end up, but obstacles get in the way, we get impatient. And the next little bit of shiny is already tempting us. Since we're bogged down in the process and we've seen in our mind how it will likely end, it's just more alluring to figure out the next bit of shiny instead of waiting for things to come together

    8) And then..when we do get into that 'Must follow through!'-phase..get out of our way. Yeah, I truly hate that one as well. It's the whole, 'This shit needs to be done and otherwise I'm just sitting around wasting my time so get the f*ck out of my way, now!' thing. Te. Since we're not exactly that good at it and cannot swing it around for that long (it's frigging tiresome!), most of us tend to have the finesse of a frigging bulldozer when wielding that thing. It just makes people run for cover. The second I invoke that, I'm beyond patience, and things better start happening, even if I have to ram things through people's throats, or start hitting a machine hard. It better be working, dammit! And the second there's the smallest hitch, the thing/person responsible is in serious trouble. This results in my tossing my phone somewhere hard, and freaking people out by the authoritive tone in my otherwise so chipper or calm voice. I've been told my eyes shoot thunderbolts and could kill a man the second I get that way. The reason for this is, I'm in a situation I don't wanna be in, I cannot avoid (see next point!) and I wanna get out, NOW! You're a moron if you stand in my way, seriously. End of discussion.

    9) Avoidance. Man, I love that strategy. If I can avoid problemsolving, especially if it's somethign that requires a lot of work, energy or thinking things through, I will. If I can wing it, I'll take that over planning it out and going through it, as it's such an energy saver. Gets me in all kinds of trouble when I overestimate my capacity to wing it though (I'm slowly getting better at planning only a little while mixing it with winging it though )
    My own specific issues:

    1) I really really hate what I perceive to be emotional guilttripping ( I grew up in a house of Fe-people, not all equally healthy). It makes me rebel beyond all reason. If you ask me to do something for you genuinly, I'll jump through every hoop to make it so, if I know it to be important to you. Whine that I haven't done it yet, while you didn't even ask, and I'll bend over backwards and cut my own throat before I give you what you want. I *am* working on this

    2) I hate bureaucracy and housework with a vengeance. It is mindboggling boring, always comes back, you're never done with it and it doesn't gain me any satisfaction at all, not to mention it feels like something you get forced into again (see 1)). These days, I've found that if I need to mull things over, I just get started on a simple task that needs doing as well, that way I don't feel pressured for that task and I can put my mind to work on something else.

    3) I *suck* at finding things. Like, seriously suck at it. I have my INTJ find it all for me, because, even if I bother, I'll go over a spot 4 times and still not find the item I need.

    4) I love freedom but leadership can be draining on me. I rather be the 'right hand', as constantly having to think ahead, plan and direct people can be quite daunting.




    Ok..I'm sure there's more, but I'll go hide under a rock for a while while this storm already starts up

    WOW. This is really good.

    Very nice.


    Yeah, I relate to all of the above.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  4. #94
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks for that, Starry Knights.

    Your assertion that the other person doesn't need to give anything sometimes can feel like their attempts to show care towards you are unneeded and unwanted. They read it as rejection, rather than acceptance and a lack of obligation.

    I don't think we generally think of it in terms of keeping score. However, if you noticed that something in your relationship seemed consistently one-sided, wouldn't you start to wonder why after awhile? I think the same principle is at work, but about smaller things than would be ones that were a problem for you.

    I understand the need for an ongoing love that isn't contingent on behaviour that day. Perhaps this problem you mentioned has something to do with what we talked about regarding Fe needing consistent behaviour cumulated over a period of time, whereas ENFPs seem more able to accept someone as they are that day and take what they see at face value rather than reading more into it. We expect that we will end up hurting people inadvertantly and being hurt by them. However, if I point out what hurts me, it surprises me when that seems to be reacted to with anger and opposition, because I think I'm just trying to avoid a buildup of resentment down the road by making you aware of it and I hope for you to do the same, even though it will be painful. ENFPs on the other hand feel that by reacting with hurt or anger, we are misunderstanding their good intentions at their core and also keeping score of every little thing they do wrong.

    Sacrifice is a very big part of how I experience love. If I see that someone else has gone out of their way for me, it helps me rein in my own thoughts, feelings and behaviour and makes me feel cared for and appreciated. If I want someone to feel loved and cared for, I try to make a point of making adjustments for them that involve some degree of personal sacrifice. If those go completely unnoticed or unappreciated though, the problem is that I feel rejection. It's not a thought that if I do this for you, it will afford me this much leaway or that it will obligate you to this degree. On the other hand, if I consistently am sacrificing stuff and it's not acknowledged or appreciated and I'm not given an alternate way of showing that I care, it ends up with built up resentment and a sense of alienation. What is the best way for someone to show that they care about you? What kinds of things do you appreciate most? I think everyone is individual, but there are likely some general ways that ENFPs experience love differently than I may.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    Hm. Same with my INFJ.
    God, that feeling of "owing" someone is awful to deal with.

    See, all of this reinforces an old pair of disproven schemata of mine.

    Fe = Guilt orientation
    Fi = Shame orientation

    "Neurotic, ha!"
    I let out a scornful laugh.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell.
    I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days.
    "

    — Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar.

  6. #96
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'd way prefer guilt - it's controllable within yourself (but is probably why criticism is taken so personally and with a deep sense of embarrassment). Shame is something that is imposed on you by others (either you learn to instinctively throw it off and dig your heels in, or else you get submerged by it). Maybe that helps explain the differing reactions to criticism or anger.

    Why is the feeling of "owing" someone so awful? It's not that someone is keeping score. It's sort of the equivalent of splitting up chores between two people in the house or of one person cooking supper and the other one cleaning up after. It would stand out if one person consistently didn't do anything or if one person would not allow the other to help, but otherwise it seems to be workable. How does it look different through your eyes?

  7. #97
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    First of all, 21% (as usual) articulated what's going on here very well. I am in complete awe of how much I am a prisoner of these cognitive function I was born with. It is a very humbling experience if you stop and truly appreciate how so much of the essence of our personalities that we think of as being under our control is not.

    ...

    Secondly, I just wanted to acknowledge that I completely see how Fidelia wasn't trying to argue that the Fe was was the right way. And, (others correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think most people took it that way. In fact, I'd say that an Fe user might be way more concerned that it would be taken that way than an Fi user would be prone to see such a comment as intrusive.

    (By the way, the reverse is true I think. For example, it NEVER even occurred to me that anyone would ever take my comments on the INFJ Common Issues thread as intrusive. But some people obviously did. <-- Again, a complete communication disconnect among people that typically are at the highest end of the bell curve when it comes to social awareness.)

    ...
    I agree that our natural inclinations do come more out of these functions than out of a conscious decision to just be that way. However, I would argue that we most certainly aren't a prisoner to those functions. As we mature, I think we should be able to start seeing the value in other ways of doing things, while still remaining true to who we are. Maybe that comes with establishing enough self-identity (figuring out what we naturally do in relation to what others naturally do) to then focus our attentions further afield and work on balancing some things out.

    Would you say then that a Fe user should try to get into the habit of being blunter and more direct so that they convey their message before they get frustrated and start attributing motives to the ENFP that are not there?

    Regarding the other thread and our little clash - to me I thought I was clearly telling you "You are being intrusive, back off before I start biting back". As you persisted, I got more direct and blunt (in a real life circumstance I would have just abandoned the situation at that point because you were not close to me and we didn't need to work/live together). That kind of bluntness is very unusual for me to display. Even then, it was interpreted by other NFPs as being anger. There may have been frustration that the message wasn't getting through when I felt like I had tried rephrasing it in several different ways, but my intent was more to alert you to a possible pack of angry INFJs that were going to further frustrate you and end up eating you alive if you persisted in the same vein. It was more like when someone yells "Get out of there now! Danger!" even though normally it's not polite to yell or it may seem kind of short. What cafe said was terribly direct compared to what you would usually hear and yet there was still no verbal acknowledgement that you had heard the warning and were plannig to change courses. I think for us, that verbal acknowledgement is huge, or we will just keep restating our case.

    In you people's world, are you more likely to just take it as useful information and start thinking of a Te solution? Would it have been better to just say right out - "You are being intrusive and someone is going to kill you if you keep on like this?" That feels rather insensitive and rejecting to me, but I'm not sure what the appropriate route would be. To Fe using onlookers, it seemed very obvious what was going on. To Fi looking onlookers, it seemed judgemental and like I was being unfair and stuck in my own mode of communication, expecting you to adjust. I also felt like I was not just leaving you to flounder, as I had suggested what would get your point across more effectively and it didn't seem to be acknowledged, nor the information used.

    I have had a couple of little exchanges with Victor. I know that I stepped on one of his Fi values. He attaches a lot of value and significance to people reading Wind And The Willows aloud together. Sometimes it seems like that Fi desire to share can seem like imposing (that's not the right word, but I don't have a good one to express it) and green eggs and ham-ish when others aren't responding affirmatively. I tried talking directly in private, but there was no response, so I decided to do it publicly in a thread where he had brought up reading the book together even though there was no logical connection to the content of the thread and where the person had told him that they thought his invitation was creepy. I realized I was doing it, but at the same time I figured that maybe that amount of bluntness would at least provoke discussion of the reasons for persisting or what the value he attached to that activity was, which is really what I wanted. I needed enough information to work with so that I could interpret his actions in a more favourable light, rather than just seeing him as persistent and ignoring other people's social clues. What would have been a better route to go? He saw me as attacking him, but I felt that when I was polite, the message was not getting through. I wasn't being offered another way to go about understanding it better, so I ended up weighing the costs vs benefits and giving it a shot.

    This has also happened the couple of times that I've run into a Fi wall with an NFP. I may have unknowingly stepped on a value of theirs. However, when I've tried to understand what it is that I did better, they do not want to discuss it. If I apologize, it seems to them to be insincere. If I don't understand exactly what the problem is, I can't get enough information to see what it is and I can't apologize, it seems that the other person is not very solution-oriented and the behaviour seems immature and selfish to me. What should I be doing differently that would yield more positive results? Sometimes it just feels like you can't win. I know I'm seeing this is a negative light and so I would like to understand it better.

  8. #98
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Hmm, am I talking too much, or are all the ENFPs just out socializing?

  9. #99
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Very simple, if it's the look I think it is, it's is the equivalent of and that will get you an instant and very strong

    If you EVER wanna make me rebel against EVERYTHING you say, plz tell me what to do. I dare you. Look down on me, shake your head disapprovingly and tell me I'm not being 'proper'. I promise you, the reaction will be worth it. I'm just not sure you'll be able to handle it. I experience this as extremely judgemental and manipulative (aka guilttripping).
    I wonder if this heels-digging obstinacy is akin to the INFJ tendency to give up on conversations- that have barely even opened- when someone gets all anti-dialogical with Te. I think that might be when my Fe jumps in and writes off anything the person says because anti-dialogical interaction is disrespectful. And not to get all “an eye for an eye”, but I don’t feel the need to be especially respectful towards someone who wants respect but isn’t interested in dishing any out.



    In both cases, it would be about resenting the person for not putting more critical thought into how they exercise their extraverted judging function.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #100
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Because then they wouldn't be ENFP. It is, in part, this obliviousness, combined with an enthusiasm for esoteric subject matter, that makes them charming to INTJs. If the "look" worked, they'd run in sheer horror from INTJs. Instead, they're oblivious to "the look" and say, "Look at this! Aren't Klein bottles soo cool?!" And since, yes, the INTJ does think a Klein bottle is pretty darn cool, and NO ONE actually talks about Klein bottles in normal conversation ... suddenly ENFP and INTJ have a "normal conversation" about Klein bottles.




    The examples are simple: any case where you take any rule above and insist that someone follow it, or be outcast from your social circle.

    While it is typical to characterize Fi as "selfish", it should be understood that Fe can be just as selfish, but expressed in a completely different way (all the while trying not to sound too selfish). In particular, (2) and (4) can be expressed very selfishly. (2) implies that the world revolves around you, that it should matter to other people what you feel and what things mean to you, and if people don't comply with that worldview, it isn't a problem with you, but with all those inconsiderate people who aren't doing anything for you. (4) implies that people should automatically be doing acts of service for others. Not only is this necessarily against the nature of some people who are just as loving as those for whom this is a love language, it again has the built-in assumption that other people should be doing things for you, and if they don't, the problem is with them, and not you. It is a very Fe thing to say, "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?!"

    This is not to say that there is anything wrong with reciprocating acts of service, with intuitively reading others' feelings and attitudes and doing something to help them out. These are good things, but expecting it is immature, while outright requiring it is evil (by imposing on others, demanding that they comply with your wants and needs).

    Also, I should make a point that ought to resonate with the INFJs here. We Ni-doms know what it is like to be misunderstood, that people really don't understand what we mean, that they don't understand or see the things we understand and see. In spite of that, I've had plenty of people, including plenty of INFJs, "read" me, make assumptions, and do things for me that I either don't give a damn about or even annoy me, thus proving that they don't understand me. (In later years I've come to recognize this as their version of kindness, and I receive it far more outwardly appreciatively in spite of being annoyed by it.)

    Assuming that people who cannot read one's mind and do for one exactly what one wants, when one wants it are morally lacking is the Fe hubris. Yes, I know, Fe feels like it make reasonable concessions, that it doesn't expect mind reading, and so on, but when push comes to shove (and this is real life experience talking), Fe will insist that whatever social cue was plainly obvious and that not acting on it is a moral deficiency -- that lack of awareness is not an excuse, that one should (morally!) be more socially aware.

    I can understand how one might grow up assuming that this sort of automatic reading of social cues is normal, but the next step is understanding that different people express love in different ways. Look for their other ways of expressing love, and they won't seem quite so rude, uncaring, unloving or unrefined anymore.
    This was all very well put. Much more well-put than anything that I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Because Fi is very individually driven, does your Fi ever clash with others?
    Yes, absolutely it can. And those can be some VERY nasty clashes.

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