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[INFJ] Common INFJ issues

William K

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Fi users need somehow to be validated, and feel a sense of rejection of they are not, and Fe users, need to know they were appreciated for having their opinion (attention) matter in the first place... sigh!

I think those on the extreme ends of the typing can learn a great deal from eachother, and those within a close percentage of the P and J functions, can see both sides.

From SolitaryWalker's very long INFP profile (http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/2238-infp-profile.html). I disagree with parts of it but it's a very interesting and rewarding read.

SolitaryWalker said:
Earlier, we have mentioned that the primary drive of an Extroverted Feeler is to direct passions to the outside, and by these merits their whole being will be fulfilled. The Introverted Feeler, however, does not need to direct passions to the outside in order to be fulfilled, because he/she can accomplish this internally. The Extroverted Feeler, is the go-getter, one who likely will do all that is necessary in order to achieve the goal of being loved, ostensibly by attempting to 'love others'. Yet the INFP needs to be engaged first. This is much akin to how INTPs tend to be excellent self-starters when engaged by a task, though non-starters when not-engaged. This is a property of Extroverted Intuition for both types, as we can only be informed of the task through our perceiving function. Since the perceiving function for INPs is extroverted, it must derive from the outside. They may remain stagnant for long periods of time due to their internsely internally focused nature, much unlike ENPs who would pursue the external tasks in a highly energetic fashion. For this reason, the INFP, as beforementioned is highly likely to retreat to the inner world for intense emotional experiences. Introverted Feeling, as a dominant function, always needs to be making decisions, as we see that it is an end in itself and therefore internally fueled. Hence, so long as the inner being is in operational mode for the INFP, Introverted Feeling will be in session.

SolitaryWalker said:
Unlike the Extroverted Feeler who may need ritual-like consistent reassurance of being appreciated, the INFP merely needs to know that they are appreciated. Much like the Extroverted Thinker needs to be solving problems consistently in order to feel competent, the Introverted Thinker only needs to know that he can solve a problem if necessary. Since Introverted Feeling requires more authenticity than Extroverted, due to the factor of introversion which demands more depth, the INFP, despite the lack of a need for constant reassurance will require to be appreciated more in order to be in their own element. The INFP is most influenced of all types by their emotional environment due to the fact that their feeling preferrence is stronger than that of other types. It should be noted, however, that extroversion almost by property of itself implies a more scattered attunement with many entities at the same time, whilst introversion implies an intense attunement with a few entities. Based on this, one could speculate that the INFP is only intensely attuned with the few things that are held in high esteem by their values, and has little regard for things that are not honored by their value system. This may be true, however, almost irrespectively of the situation they are facing, an INFP will find a few entities in their environment to be intensely emotionally attuned with. For this reason, the INFP will be more influenced by their external environment more than the Extroverted Feeling type.

As PeaceBaby has said above, I don't need you to agree with my 'feelings' or the decisions I make with them. I just need you to respect and acknowledge that I am capable of having/doing both.

Looks like the Fi's have decided to invade this thread :D
 

Arclight

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Yes we are derailing, aren't we?^^^^^

The Fi tree ... here's a link to a post you may enjoy.

Read through the whole thread though for context if you have time. :)

It's uumlau's thread on Fi.

Fi axioms as a tree metaphor



If the tree is my Fi.. (I never saw the relation, but yeah uumlau is quite articulate and a genius)

Then what is the puzzle?
 

William K

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If the tree is my Fi.. (I never saw the relation, but yeah uumlau is quite articulate and a genius)

Then what is the puzzle?

I'd guess it's your Fi trying to get the pieces that Ne is feeding you to fit
 

Arclight

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I'd guess it's your Fi trying to get the pieces that Ne is feeding you to fit

Because Ne is an extroverted function, is that why it feels like it's coming from a different direction?
 

PeaceBaby

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I posted the link to that thread as tangential to the discussion at hand, merely because the tree diagram sparked the thought. You can extrapolate and ponder on it at your leisure.

And for you as an Fi user, perhaps the thread would be of general interest as well.

Yes we are derailing, aren't we?^^^^^
Then what is the puzzle?

/end derail
 

Evi

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I feel oddly relieved at the thought that people would want me to volunteer information, I tend to feel so guilty afterwards when I do and they haven't asked, even if I've asked them. And I just realized I have really long mental lists of what topics can be discussed with which people, for how long and what sort of mood they have to be in to do so. It's so strange, I've suspected that people might want this, but normally I dismiss it, unless I get the hint that they would in fact, like to know what I think. Actually that's part of the reason I don't post very often, although I do enjoy reading the threads. I think I'm a little giddy with the idea...

And the idea of the tree makes a lot of sense to me.
 

Esoteric Wench

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Yes, Fi users want you to share voluntarily. To translate into Fe terms, if Fi breaches the topic of one's own feelings, then implicit permission is given to you to divulge your own feelings, especially as related (by topic matter) to what the Fi user reveals.

Think of it in terms of Fi precision: in Fi terms, there is no adequate question that can be asked. To Fi, "How are you?" is merely another form of "Hello" and not a "real question," because experience proves that most people who express an interest in how we feel don't want the "real answer." So to Fi, there is no good question and no good answer, so it's best to just say how one feels if one feels moved to do so.

You might wonder how to "cut off" someone from endlessly nattering on about their feelings and experiences. The most effective is to simply affirm their feelings and maybe offer a practical solution if one is obvious - but affirming their feelings is enough. Don't try to explain how their feelings are wrong or inappropriate or shouldn't be expressed: this will extend the interaction into even more annoying territory, just say, "Yeah, that really sucks," or whatever is appropriate.

Another way is to divulge your own feelings, should you believe it appropriate to do so, and don't wait for them to ask: the mere fact that they're divulging feelings means the topic is opened, and they'll not be upset should you discuss your own experience.

A final way is to be more "INTJ" about it, and simply cut off communication, tersely. If you wait for a polite exit, the opportunity will rarely arise, because it relies upon the other having your sense of politeness. A simple, "Excuse me, but I have to go," should work OK.

Reversing this, the Fe user's polite inquiry sounds offensive to the Fi user. If we wanted to talk about our feelings, we'd be talking about them already, and now we have to figure out how to refuse the inquiry. (You wonder why a "no" doesn't suffice? There is something about "Fe" language that seems to be heard in Fi terms that "no" isn't an acceptable answer, that the Fe user would be offended by the "no.")

The best way to address this is just to recognize the signs, rather than give in to the annoyance factor. If you're Fe, and you hear an Fi person spout out about feelings, translate it into Fe speak, where the Fi user is asking how you feel about the topic, implicitly. It's just bass-ackwardsly saying how they feel first. And feel free to just say what you feel, and don't be obliged to inquire. If you're Fi, don't treat a question as to how you feel as being nosy. The proper way to say "no" is "I'm doing fine, thank you for asking." If the topic isn't too private, and you feel comfortable opening up, do so. After the topic has been about you and your feelings for 2 or 3 rounds, ask about their feelings. E.g., simply ask "What's you're opinion on the matter?" Remember that they need your permission to tell you what they really think. They won't just up and say it like you normally would.

I feel like I'm being obsequious because I've complimented so many of today's posts, but uumlau this is really very, very impressive. You really have got this nailed down. This is a real map on how to navigate sometimes perilous Fe / Fi relations.

Thank you.
 

21%

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Re: Everything about Fi (by Arclight, PeaceBaby, Satine and everyone else!)

Thank you! Your insight is greatly appreciated. You have put what I've been sensing from my INFP for a long time but unable to put my finger on into coherent paragraphs, which is very helpful!

Now I just need to print some of that out and keep it in my pocket to remind myself where Fi is coming from :blush:

Sorry for derailing this thread into yet another Fe/Fi discussion. Let's get back to the original topic now...
 

Affably Evil

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This thread is astonishing.

In light of so many of these posts, I've found myself re-examining communication problem areas that I've had with my close ENFP, our different methods for listening both to each other and to mutual friends, ways that we've clashed in the past... I have so much to think about, and I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread for contributing. I'll definitely be saving and printing some of the most salient parts.
 

Esoteric Wench

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This thread is astonishing.

In light of so many of these posts, I've found myself re-examining communication problem areas that I've had with my close ENFP, our different methods for listening both to each other and to mutual friends, ways that we've clashed in the past... I have so much to think about, and I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread for contributing. I'll definitely be saving and printing some of the most salient parts.

I've had a similar experience. It's taking time to sort and filter through it all, but WOW!

[And let me say, Affably Evil, that in a forum where everyone tries to have an interesting / witty user name, yours is one of the coolest ones I've seen in a longtime. Well done. :) ]
 

sculpting

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A last comment on this thread and interaction within between enfps and infjs.

ENFPs will very actively, instinctively mold ourselves to meet the needs of the other. However we do this by seeing microexpressions and watching body language and then adjusting in response.

In a text based discussion we cannot do that, so we may replay more harshly here to an INFJ than we would in person as we cannot see discomfort and we are in logic mode using Te to pick the problem apart.

I would suspect that Fe being able to adapt to "tones" in text or "unspoken words" in spoken words vs Fi adapting to subtle changes in body language, facial microexpression may be an interesting theme to explore and might contribute to forum misunderstandings.
 

onemoretime

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Here's an idea - how would everyone on this thread define "love"?
 

Fidelia

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Good question. I know how I feel, but will have to think it over to put it into a cohesive sentence that accurately reflects my thoughts.
 

Fidelia

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Part of the way I feel about what love is is written over in the ENFP thread right now. Self-sacrifice on both people's part has a lot to do with it for me, along with a steady, underlying current of grace for each other when one people makes mistakes and hurts the other person. Healthy love includes an element of self-care so that there are still reserves left to give the other person. You do not give until there is no margin left. Self-care also provides an indication of the respect that is expected and needed. Also included in love are appropriate boundaries of what is within the realm of possibility and which behaviours are firmly outside it and will not be tolerated without everything needing to change from the ground floor up.
 

Lightyear

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Part of the way I feel about what love is is written over in the ENFP thread right now. Self-sacrifice on both people's part has a lot to do with it for me, along with a steady, underlying current of grace for each other when one people makes mistakes and hurts the other person. Healthy love includes an element of self-care so that there are still reserves left to give the other person. You do not give until there is no margin left. Self-care also provides an indication of the respect that is expected and needed. Also included in love are appropriate boundaries of what is within the realm of possibility and which behaviours are firmly outside it and will not be tolerated without everything needing to change from the ground floor up.

Awesome. Totally agree.
 

Fidelia

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I think that real love had to have the ability to both accept and provide nurture or provision and to be vulnerable. Without vulnerability there can be no intimacy.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I want to get back to something posted earlier in this thread- I was taken out of commission for a few days. A *lot* of the stuff that’s being said in this thread (and probably actually more so in the sister thread “common ENFP issues”, but I’m posting here because this is more about INFJs) about Fe seems to be at least loosely based on the premise that Fe is about mindless conformity and necessarily less authentic than Fi. I’m not sure exactly where this notion comes from, but it’s kind of like saying Te ‘users’ necessarily have less authentic thoughts because they adhere to external paradigms more than the self-made critical reflection of Ti; which is obviously bullshit.

Introverted function = depth
Extraverted function = breadth

Not

Introverted function = authentic
Extraverted function = fake

Having more Fe than Fi doesn’t mean I cling to mindless ‘formal’ social rules of etiquette; in fact, I loathe mindless social rules of etiquette and question them at every turn. I just recognize where people need them to feel respected, and my priority happens to be on making other people feel respected (that's where the 'breadth' comes in). People do the best they can. There are some relatively good people who just never felt the need to question ‘formal’ rules: I adhere to the rules around them and get away from them the first chance I get, because it’s exhausting to me.

Scott Denver brought up (in sister thread) the example of how- in some situations- the behaviors he deemed more trademark of Fi were actually more thoughtful to adhere to than typical societal rules of etiquette. My point here is that someone with more Fe than Fi is just as likely to pick that up (maybe even more so): because it’s about having one’s focus on the feelings of others in any particular environment. Sure, there are Fe ‘users’ who will judge such environments for not being ‘polite’: but they don’t do it because they are Fe ‘users’, they do it because they are close-minded individuals who don’t want to do the work of adapting.

I am personally far, far more comfortable in environments where I don’t have to remember a bunch of 'formal' rules to make others feel respected- because it’s important to me to feel respectful. It absolutely wears me out when I have to be completely distracted by following some stupid pre-conceived guideline simply to feel respectful.

Having Je aux means- because my perception is directed inward, and judgment is directed outward- I am less malleable ‘in the moment’ than other types whose perception is directed outward and judgment is directed inward. And, more specifically, having Fe aux means that I am less malleable ‘in the moment’ during my interaction with other people. Here’s an example which was brought up earlier in this thread:

I walk up the door of an IXTJ's office, drop all my guards and just let all that weird, messed up childish Fi glow at them. Fi does not remain within the confines of my body. It kinda touches people. (Insert CRAZEE) I let them know I love them, because I am an idiot and pretty much love everyone. The best I can figure, something about the facial expression, the openness, the sheer nuttiness of it, causes them to get happy, even if they are miserable.

I have heard mirror neurons suggested as a potential explanation.

They kinda look at me sideways and they smile. I actually will hug the INTJs and touch their faces. It is almost spontaneous. It isnt sexual at all, just love. After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.

You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right? I don't mind occasional nuttiness if I'm part of it and the circumstances are right. Otherwise, it seems like attention seeking. (I don't mean this unkindly, but find it interesting at how very differently different types will respond to the same thing).


I not trying to speak for fidelia, but for me “and the circumstances are right” = if I somewhat anticipate it.

It isn’t that I don’t want someone coming up to me and doing this because I think it’s ‘improper’, or that I have some negative judgment about people ‘needing attention’: I don’t like someone behaving this way towards me because it’s an interruption. It’s a ‘surprise’ of sorts, it interrupts my thinking process and stifles my sense of freedom (which- for Pi types- is in the mind). I prefer things (and people) in the external world to match my expectations (which I formed myself- I didn’t absorb mindless social expectations) so that I can have as much freedom as possible to explore internal possibilities. That’s where my freedom is- just like an ENP type’s freedom is in being spontaneous and “crazy, wacky, etc” (in other words, exploring possibilities in the external world).

And about my expectations: I do my best to scale them down to a bare minimum, to be as reasonable as possible. For example: I expect strangers to not punch me in the face unprovoked. My expectations are largely based on my past experience of others, what I consider ‘typical’ human behavior and that which- on my own reflection- seems ‘respectful’ (i.e. not punching strangers unprovoked). If a friend calls me up to ask a favor- they don’t have to go through some ridiculous protocol of asking how I’m doing first, but they do have to show consistency in their behavior towards me (being curmudgeonly when they don’t need anything- but being all syrupy nice when they do- just doesn’t fly with me). I generally don’t expect strangers to come up and lavish me with flirty attention simply because it isn’t something that happens in the regular course of any given day; it’s unexpected, therefore it’s an interruption.

I don’t really understand why INTJs prefer that kind of interruption. The only thing I can think of is that (because they are more Fi than Fe) they don’t feel on-the-spot pressure to react in a way which assures the other person (the one who initiates the playfulness) will leave the incident feeling respected. That’s probably the biggest reason it might annoy an INFJ, but not an INTJ. The distraction for me would be, “damnit, now I’ve got to stop what I was doing and quickly come up with some reaction to assure this person that I acknowledge their attempt to involve me in playfulness is not- in itself- a loathsome thing to do.” INTJ types probably aren’t distracted by how their reaction makes the individual feel- so they can quickly dismiss it if they aren’t in the mood and get back to whatever they were thinking?

But anyway- my point here is: I think people are mistaking the INFJ need for consistency in the external world with some mindless need for others to conform to shallow rules of etiquette.


/rant

edit: okay, since posting this, I've gone back to catch up on that sister thread and it looks like this has *somewhat* been addressed over there.
 

Fidelia

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I would agree with nearly all of that. Because Z Buck and I are different e types and also I am social first, I don't react so much to the interruption, but sometimes I do to the unexpectedness or whether I feel playful right then. However, as Z Buck was saying, I think it bothers me more because I also have to assure the other person that they are not unwelcome, even though to do so means that I have to not show that I find them a little intrusive or unobservant.

I don't think the that Fi depth and Fe breadth thing can be said enough though. I am one of the first to question why things are done the way they are. It's just that I will probably try to look at a wider range of people or ideas to deal with it, rather than plumb the depths of what's wrong with it at the cost of reaching a satisfactory compromise. If something doesn't make sense to me, I want to find out who it does make sense for and why so that I can weigh the costs/benefits of breaking that convention. Will my ultimate goal be served by doing so? If there's something I feel I need to stay true to, how can I do that while disturbing the least amount of people necessary to achieve my aim.
 

Fidelia

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A last comment on this thread and interaction within between enfps and infjs.

ENFPs will very actively, instinctively mold ourselves to meet the needs of the other. However we do this by seeing microexpressions and watching body language and then adjusting in response.

In a text based discussion we cannot do that, so we may replay more harshly here to an INFJ than we would in person as we cannot see discomfort and we are in logic mode using Te to pick the problem apart.

I would suspect that Fe being able to adapt to "tones" in text or "unspoken words" in spoken words vs Fi adapting to subtle changes in body language, facial microexpression may be an interesting theme to explore and might contribute to forum misunderstandings.


That's an interesting thought. It would help explain why some misunderstandings that happen here don't happen in the same way for me in real life. How would seeing someone's expression of discomfort redirect your strategy for dealing with us? Would you instinctively back off on Te?
 
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