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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #81
    にゃん Array runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Are you saying write down a list of the problems and possible solutions? I think that is what I do mentally, but maybe I don't understand completely either.
    That's exactly what I mean, though collaboratively rather than acquisitively, if you know what I mean there. If a moment to cool down, then work on it both verbally and written so that the picture is clearer for both that should help. Then again, this may only work with me...

    Oh yeah, nobody likes that. Or a person who is only willing to talk about their own problems but not reciprocate. Talking mostly about SO, roommate or parent here. Something really close.
    I typically let an SO get away with more than close friends and close family. Good family, good friends, and roommates get away with less than that. Other family and acquaintances after that, but still are above the faceless masses.

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Would it be helpful to take gas like ideas and help sublimate and crystallize? Like I said before, come at it from the side and take down the ideas, see what may work, then move?
    Elaborate, please!
    Basically when you start talking, if I see part of it working say something to see if it adds to the structure you're trying to build in your head. I like to, as I say, "come in from the side" to basically help as a function of collaboration rather than come from a position of dictation or disinterest.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, I've thought about that. I think it's one of the reasons why I need to get better about being less protective and also why I don't think INFJs should be in relationships with each other. Too much potential for misunderstanding and nothing to draw either one out or make them take more risks.
    I'm working on it too, but I'd still date an INFJ even to help deal with it in myself.
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  2. #82
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    That's exactly what I mean, though collaboratively rather than acquisitively, if you know what I mean there. If a moment to cool down, then work on it both verbally and written so that the picture is clearer for both that should help. Then again, this may only work with me...
    I'll have to mull this one over. Generally I hate collaborative projects of any sort and would prefer to think, consult, think consult as separate rather than simultaneous activities. The reason for this is that I need time in between to think about the new information I have received and decide how I feel about it. I have a hard time doing that on the spot and so then end up agreeing to something that I'm not happy with in the end. However, it is good to try different ideas out, so I'm not discounting this.

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh
    I typically let an SO get away with more than close friends and close family. Good family, good friends, and roommates get away with less than that. Other family and acquaintances after that, but still are above the faceless masses.
    Yeah, I probably do too. The kind of roommates I'd be referring to would also be close friends. Otherwise, yeah they're in the co-worker, acquaintance friend, have to around or with them in some way pile.

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh
    Basically when you start talking, if I see part of it working say something to see if it adds to the structure you're trying to build in your head. I like to, as I say, "come in from the side" to basically help as a function of collaboration rather than come from a position of dictation or disinterest.
    This is very foreign to me. If this were a puzzle piece, you are saying to take the piece that someone hands you without looking too much at its shape and try putting it in the slot. If it doesn't fit, remove it. My natural instinct would be to sort the puzzle pieces according to edge pieces or colour/sections of puzzle. Then I'd look at all the sides of the hole and compare it to the piece I'd like to put in. If the one I thought should work doesn't and I don't see it anywhere else, I'd say to the person I'm working with, "Hey, do you see the piece that's supposed to fit here? It should be blue and orange, I think".

    I believe this is one of the reasons that I truly hate commitee work. It just feels like I can get so much more done alone and then when I run into trouble I can actually use the person's time and resources more wisely. That way they can also get something done. You are probably right though that it is good to change things up and try it out.

  3. #83
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    (and please, INFJs, don't go for my jugular on this one! I like you guys a lot! Really! I'm a friend, and I'm unarmed!):
    An ESTJ begging a group of INFJs for mercy. I’m just saying this isn’t something you see everyday.

    This is also kinda funny. I was just reading through Esoteric’s post, trying to figure out what got my dander up last night and I think this is what happened:

    Misunderstandings:
    1)Delayed processing time – INFJs often seem to be basing their responses to the person in question on the last interaction they had with them, more often than the current one. They prefer to have time to think things over, which is why it's not a great idea to try to push an INFJ into making a decision before they feel they have had enough time to mull everything that has been brought up.
    I think Fidelia & I (I can’t actually speak for Fid, I’m just assuming) reacted more to our past experience of Esoteric than the single post in this thread; thereby demonstrating how this issue plays out with people . I think it’s most confusing for ExxPs when we do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Seems like you have extrapolated from one comment I made about how some INFJs behave when they are not at their best as me stating that all INFJs need to be less rigid and relax. Now you know unequivocably that’s not what I'm saying at all. Let me respectfully ask you to consider whether or not you jumped to judgment too quickly here.
    I don't know, I guess it must be possible for that^ to seem true to someone, it's just really hard for me to imagine not attaching past experience to things.

    We (as IxxJs) need consistency in the external environment, whereas ExxPs need the least consistency in the external environment. It makes me kind of wonder about this comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    [IMG]Usually, INFJs and I get along great. But when I have run into trouble with my INFJ friends, it's always about when they have a perception (real or not) that I'm doing something unacceptable in terms of <insert INFJ sacred cow here>.
    I wonder if (at least part of) Esoteric’s understanding of “sacred cow” is actually just our need for consistency. If someone is behaving like X on Friday, then behaving like Y on Saturday, then on Saturday: we are more likely to say the person is X, whereas ExxPs will say the person is Y. And when the person behaves like W on Sunday: we’re likely to still be fusing X and Y together, where the ExxP will simply see W. Of course it’s going to look to them like we don’t listen well, or that we’re too slow with the uptake of information- we need more than simply the present moment of something being true to believe it. To believe something is ‘true’: we need it to be true today, yesterday, and every day before that, and incorporating past information is actually the ExxP blind spot (as much as incorporating new information can be our blind spot).

    I had the same problem with the ENP I dated for several years. He’d tell me I wasn’t listening, and I’d point out to him that- whatever it was he wanted me to believe- it would need to be true for more than one afternoon in order for me to believe it. I can see how that would seem to him like I thought he was doing “something unacceptable in terms of <insert INFJ sacred cow here>”. I think it’s a drag for them to be tied down to past information, they want the freedom of brand new things being true.

    I’m kind of rambling here, I’m not sure how much sense this makes. I just thought it was funny that #1 on the ‘INFJ common issues’ op actually got demonstrated firsthand in the thread.
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  4. #84
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    ^100% relate to needing something to be true for more than one afternoon, otherwise I won't give it much credence or weight... I'm afraid I find it pointless to even bother *really* integrating an in-the-moment thing when it comes to certain people/personalities, because I figure/know (through experience) they're likely to drop it by the next day/week anyway and move onto something else.
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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    You know, I never thought of it that way, but I believe you are right, Z Buck. It's a combo of the delayed reaction thing combined with the need for consistency to believe that something is true. This thread has been interesting in a lot of ways that I hadn't anticipated! EW hadn't responded to the objections presented to his/her point of view in the last thread, and that I felt that EW's perspective on INFJs has sometimes seemed mistaken. In light of that prior information, I viewed the comments being made through a lens that may have been incorrect for last night. I felt like "You are working from the wrong premises to begin with and now you are going to come in and TELL us how we should be? Forget it! Understand us first and then we'll talk!"

    Although ESTJs have a bad rap for being a little harsh, it's the ones that seem placid on the outside that you really have to look out for! EJCC's approach to what could have been a dicey subject (the martyr complex), in addition to her past demonstration of helpfulness and consistency and her prior experience with INFJs she still has affection for made me amenable to considering if what she was saying had some validity. It's interesting that the issue of consistency came up in the Ask an ESTJ thread. I had brought up the frustration of ESTJs around me colouring negative things that happened to them highly and then acting like they weren't a big deal later and getting frustrated at me feeling personal responsibility for them or taking their negativity as an accusation. She had said that it was their way of dealing with what could be hard for them - colour it up a little, make it funny, laugh at it and let it dissapate in that way. I had instead interpreted it as a passive-aggressive way of "joking" about something that really was bugging them or that had inconvenienced them but which I had no control of. At this juncture, I would also like to say that it sounds like I really didn't like the ESTJs I was close to. That is not the case! It's more just trying to understand the parts that are different from me and aren't easily explainable as a result!

    Another thing that should have gone on my original list is that I find it very painful to be unjustly blamed for something. Justly blamed is very difficult, unjustly is almost unbearable. Even when I was a little kid, I distinctly remember feeling that way at 4 or 5. One of the most painful incidents at school when I was a kid was that the teacher had assumed that I had purposely cut another Grade 1ers new spring jacket and shamed me in front of the whole class. To this day, I'm grateful to a boy named Darren who spoke up for me!

  6. #86
    hyggelig Array EJCC's Avatar
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    No, I think closure and grudges are completely different. Grudges are an issue of immaturity or handling things badly, not type.
    Oh, okay. That's good to know. I had read that INFJs hold grudges longer than most other types, but hearing this from an INFJ helps.
    Re venting: In that case, I would like to use this as an excuse to thank you for so graciously listening to my venting about my ESTJ who was in a rather bad place and not representative of typical healthy ESTJ behaviour. You really did perform a very valuable service and I'll never forget it.
    Aw Thanks for the thanks! Of course,
    1. it didn't seem like venting at all to me, as much as it seemed like you stating the facts (which might have to do with the fact that everything was typed and not spoken aloud), and
    2. you actually considered my advice! That was courteous of you. Finally,
    3. the fact that I helped at all is what matters most.
    I actually don't mind advice, but I want to be sure that the person has taken the time to fully understand the situation and waited until the emotional storm is over. I do find other people's perspectives useful and they often affect me more than they may original believe.
    That's good to know - it means I'm at least doing something right with the INFJs* I know. If I cut in, in the middle of the venting, it's only to ask "Have you tried...?", which, for the most part, is just to collect information, and not to cut you off. Also, sometimes my mom will say something along the lines of "Please wait until I'm done before you say anything" before she starts on a vent, which is very helpful for me.

    Re opening up: It is not a manipulative tactic (see how upset I am, but I won't tell you why because you should know if you're a good person). It's more that I may have to interact with the person, I'm trying desperately hard to be normal and not to indulge in alarming displays of emotion without anything solution-based to offer. I hate crying in front of people or being dubbed over sensitive by people I care about. In the ESTJ case, they are too good at hiding how they have been affected which leads more transparent types like myself to think they really don't care or that they are doing more fine that they really are. I'm not sure whether it's better in that case to leave them alone to deal internally (which seems to be more the T way and the Fi way) or to try to pry a little (which is what I want people to do with me).
    1. What's especially strange about the ESTJ thing (and probably counterintuitive, from INFJ standards), is that, even though we don't always make conscious efforts to hide how we're feeling, those unconscious efforts serve the needs/wishes of our conscious mind really well. Just like you, fidelia, we'd rather act normal, and our subconscious obliges. It's amazing stuff.
    2. You have two contradictory, though I'm sure no less valid, statements in the above quote. One is that you just want to look normal, and the other is that you want someone to pry a little bit. I find that really interesting, and I relate a little bit. Do you think it's a combination of a 1-ish need to be in emotional control, and an INFJ-ish need to sort your feelings out verbally? If I'm totally off base, I'm sorry - I'm only just starting to learn your language.
    In his own way, he tried to be supportive, but he got frustrated if he couldn't just fix it immediately and make it go away
    I relate to this a lot, from my interactions with my ex-roommate and my mom. Which leads me to another question: I don't know if this is normal for INFJs, but I've noticed that, with the INFJs I know, when they're in a bad mood or have had something bad happen to them, they portray it in an incredibly grim, pessimistic, evil-triumphing-over-good kind of way. When I hear them vent about it, there is no way for me to know what's feeling and what's fact, and so, because when in doubt I take what people say as fact, I end up just as depressed and pessimistic as the INFJ. And that makes me frustrated because it makes me feel like there's nothing to be done, even though I'm sure there MUST be something that the INFJ hasn't mentioned yet! But there's no way for me to cheer them up that I can think of, because my usual methods of comfort are 1. giving advice, and 2. helping people put things in perspective (i.e. balancing the negative with some sort of positive), and I was not given enough evidence to give advice OR find a positive thing. (Not sure if this was exactly how your ESTJ felt in those situations, but it explains my frustration.)

    So, finally, my question is... what am I supposed to do in situations like that?
    Probably the difference is that even if ESTJs don't have an argument on hand, they are very good at thinking on their feet and making up one as they go. I remember seeing my ESTJ totally pull things out of his butt that had I not been aware that it was not an area of his expertise, I would have assumed that he knew what he was talking about.
    I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think you give him too much credit. I would actually argue that I'm not that good at "thinking on my feet", and I was told by an ENFJ friend that I couldn't BS to save my life. What it is, in my opinion, is thinking out loud. Your version is venting, and our version is pontificating about something and seeming authoritative.
    re your INFJ ex-roommate:
    I probably shouldn't have brought it up. Yeah, it was a habitual thing, and it was always something really intense. Her dad had died mere weeks after school started, and the little one-sentence things she would bring up would be things like nightmares about her dad, her mom not being supportive, suddenly becoming the manager of her dad's old business (that she knew nothing about) without her consent, feeling suicidal, having fights with her horrible boyfriend (whom she is still in love with when he doesn't deserve her), etc. etc. etc. It became a cycle of guilt for me, because the only time I'm good at handling the hefty issues of friends are when I know those friends very well, and I didn't know her well at all, and I felt like I shouldn't have been having that gut reaction of "Stop loading this on me! Save it for your therapist!", when I actually DID like her a lot and DID care about her, but just didn't feel like I could vicariously handle that pain and suffering.

    That is why I will never be a psychologist...


    * That was an edit! It said ESTJs before. Pardon me!
    Last edited by EJCC; 07-17-2010 at 05:03 PM. Reason: Typo
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  7. #87
    hyggelig Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    An ESTJ begging a group of INFJs for mercy. I’m just saying this isn’t something you see everyday.
    Dude. Imagine a mob of angry INFJs attacking you for a misunderstanding. That happened to me on an INTP thread once, with a mob of INTPs, because I wasn't careful enough. Not making that mistake again!

    Also, I couldn't think of a way to phrase that question without it sounding like anti-INFJ hate speech.

    And for the record, I used that exact phrasing - "martyr complex" - to my mom, in a teasing way, and she actually agreed with me! Which means that I'm not entirely off base. I hope.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Although ESTJs have a bad rap for being a little harsh, it's the ones that seem placid on the outside that you really have to look out for!
    In a good way Although, for the record, even the nice ones are cold and Te-ish on the inside. That's kind of how my INTP dad is - he's friendly and laid back and has excellently developed Fe, which makes it almost surprising when he actually acts like a stereotypical INTP!
    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?

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  8. #88
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey! I had never thought of actually explaining to someone that they needed to hear me out before saying anything. You just also offered something else tremendously useful about what you try to do to help when people are venting. The trying to balance out the negative with positive feels to me like the other person is saying that I am blowing things way out of proportion, that the other party actually was right and I'm being a whiner or that I need to just get over it instead of making such a big deal over things. Then it feels like instead of being able to run to my closest person for support, they are actually in opposition to me and contributing to my problem. It's good to know that it is just one of their default ways of trying to help and that by cutting off that option without offering something else for them to do, that is extremely frustrating and will make them much less receptive.

    Most of my venting is exaggerated versions of the truth (maybe like the way you guys joke about something bad that's happened to you or that you don't like). After I'm done, I will start reassessing and say things like, "Actually, it's not really that bad" or start being my own devil's advocate. I often do apologize for being so frustrated, emotional or blustery after I'm done my vent and thank the other person for being there.

    So, with an ESTJ, when you suspect something is wrong and they are just acting normal, what is the appropriate response? Back off or ask?

    Regarding the contradictory statements of trying to look normal while hoping someone will pry a bit. Prying indicates that the other person knows me well enough to know I'm not alright even when I'm tring to appear that I am and they also care enough to find out why I'm not alright. Looking normal is my way of trying not to stress them unduly with a whole jumble of useless information that isn't going somewhere. Most people don't like being presented with a collection of perhaps accusatory and for sure emo feelings. I don't want to lose the respect of someone whose opinion I care deeply about or make them feel bad if the problem is me rather than them. Ultimately, the person who can handle my worst, and will pry a bit even if it involves uncovering awkward things is the person that I'll trust with my deepest secrets and give my undying devotion and loyalty to. From what I've seen, ENFJs seem to have this dynamic going even more than us. They are adept at listening to other's problems but are very evasive about their own in an attempt to not burden people and to keep from being rejected for their intensity. However, they would greatly appreciate and respect someone who can handle them at their worst and see them through the storm.

    Regarding your frustrations about your two ways of cheering people not being welcomed while INFJs vent: I'm most definitely sure that that was terrible for my ESTJ. I just didn't realize this. I figured he was annoyed at me for troubling him with something that I didn't seem to want help with, when what I was looking for was someone to hug me and say, "Talk all you like, I'm here and you're going to be alright". After I'm done venting, then I'd be open to the "Have you tried" and any other observations or ideas you have though.

    He never went to me with stuff he was frustrated about and I felt shut out and like he thought I was weak and needy for talking about stuff to him. Publicly or socially he would observe the faults within the school and community environment around him. He was really just doing what I do when I vent, but it was so chronic and he almost seemed to derive great pleasure out of finding and pointing out the foibles of the people and the community we were working with that it seemed like he was being rude to them, chronically unproactive by not changing his situation, and that I was stupid for trying to impact the environment around me because it couldn't be done. He later said that it was just his way of trying to confirm that his perceptions were valid and a way of handling the toxicity that he came into contact with every day.

    LOL re the venting vs pontificating and seeming authoritative: That explains a ton then. Wish you had been around a few years ago!

    re the roommate: Yeah, I've been around people like that. In those cases, they really do need to talk to someone else. Occasionally when I've been in greater pain though, I've found myself talking to people that I don't know well about the situation. I don't know why I did it, because I am usually quite private that way. In those cases though, I think the person is only looking for a listening ear. She needed counselling though it sounds like!

  9. #89
    hyggelig Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    After I'm done, I will start reassessing and say things like, "Actually, it's not really that bad" or start being my own devil's advocate. I often do apologize for being so frustrated, emotional or blustery after I'm done my vent and thank the other person for being there.
    I wish my INFJs did that. They never backpedal. Actually, my mom does, but she only does when my INTP dad confronts her about it (which I would never do, because going up to a traumatized person and saying "You're exaggerating!!!" just seems mean to me), but that's the only time. It just proves that you're more self-aware than the average INFJ, I guess!

    Re prying vs. looking normal: I see what you mean. That makes sense. And it especially makes sense with my ENFJ friend, speaking of that type. Although I will say that he is very, very good at hiding his emotions. The only clue that he needs to let something out is that he's quieter and less responsive than usual, which is something that only good friends would catch. Whereas my INFJ mom and friends all look like sad puppies when they're in need of someone to talk to Not that it's a bad thing - I actually really appreciate it, since I don't always trust my ability to read people.

    Reminds me of that Marilyn Monroe quote: "If you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best." I personally can't relate to it that well, but it makes sense in this context - though in a very aggressive way. (Maybe she was ENFJ?)
    re the roommate: Yeah, I've been around people like that. In those cases, they really do need to talk to someone else. Occasionally when I've been in greater pain though, I've found myself talking to people that I don't know well about the situation. I don't know why I did it, because I am usually quite private that way. In those cases though, I think the person is only looking for a listening ear. She needed counselling though it sounds like!
    I've definitely used that technique with some people - and that's the one time for me when it doesn't seem awkward to open up to strangers. "Yeah, something similar happened with me when... And what I did to deal with it was... and I hope that helps." But I've never been through anything like what she'd been through in just those couple of months, so I was at a complete loss.

    The rest will be addressed on the Ask an ESTJ thread soon
    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
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    you?

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  10. #90
    Senior Member Array Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    The thread keeps moving...ack.

    First off, Damn you Z (Aka congrats), I was going to say that last night, but I went to sleep instead about our bias against Arclight, and Esoteric.

    Medium is an illusion of distinction from the message. The medium chosen is part of the message. Which is why ideally one shouldn't break up a two year relationship over e-mail as it shows a lack of respect for the other person and their feelings. Some photographers use black/white; others use color. How is the medium not related to the message?

    Sorry to interrupt my own post, but I'm exhausted....I'll come back and say more. Also sorry Arclight if this post seemed critical of your last post, what I was going to say next was in agreement with some of your ideas, but I'll wait till I'm comprehensible and with energy to write a post.
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