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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #471
    Symbolic Herald Array Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i also don't think we make these overly final decisions. we just don't know what to do, so then we get avoidant. i think both sides have a tendency to be avoidant but for very different reasons. doorslam isn't final moral judgment, it's avoidance. if we have a moral judgment attached, it's because we can not alleviate our feelings, anxieties, concerns, expectations, painful disillusionments. but much of that is in service of our own egos and we can see this better when we realize our typology, our map of how things should be represented on our symbolic system, doesn't really fit the experience of others, that we are not accounting for the key differences as well as we think we are. that sense of error opens up the possibility to look at/examine our own distortions and incompletenesses (after all, our version of typological thinking, of representations/symbols, of conceptual structure is based on compressing all the world's information into a hierarchically compact, symbolic form) much more freely.

    it's still missing a piece. we're not making the decision really on behalf of you, we're making it based on our form of ethics. so we're deciding to meet our own ethical needs, not to meet your actual needs. but our ethical system is based on ecological validity rather than internal validity, so we are focused on what we think is ecologically right for you, and at times that can diminish your experience. the tj types might be better at just doing it and then negotiating. their sense of what is not true is more directly informative and visible to you, whereas Fe might be more of a contrastive faith in different methodologies. 4s, 5s, and 9s also tend to withdraw when overwhelmed, which can have a strongly contrary effect to what would be best for them, to instead connect, share, act, disclose, be open, assert desires and intentions, etc. this last one is the most difficult for me, which creates layers and layers of uncertainty in the interaction for both parties. i am working very hard to solve this, but it's not easy; a lifetime of bad habits and good reasons why the system works the way it does.
    I am happy to read what the state i am in is saying right here. Because it articulates so well the underpinning of some doorslamming that I have initiated. I have ruminated on the ethics of doorslamming before, but it was figurative, and never so clear. Thank you, the state i am in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I listened to a discussion about Britain's nuclear armed submarines and how inside each there is a safe, and inside that safe is another safe, and inside that safe is an envelope, and inside that a handwritten letter from the PM giving the order to carry out or not carry out a retaliatory nuclear strike if Britain is annihilated. And someone asked what was the purpose of this. And someone speculated that it allows two conflicting truths to exist at the same time.

    So I wonder for me what does the existence of the possibility of doorslamming mean. Does it allow two contradictory things to be true at the same time? 1) that I am so devoted and love so completely that you never quite match it or fulfill that in me in kind, and 2) that I care less than you and will go on without you.
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  2. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    So I wonder for me what does the existence of the possibility of doorslamming mean. Does it allow two contradictory things to be true at the same time? 1) that I am so devoted and love so completely that you never quite match it or fulfill that in me in kind, and 2) that I care less than you and will go on without you.
    I am trying to locate what lives between these two contradictions if anything. Because I am convinced that is where my INFJ experience exists. Something that resembles...

    I am so devoted and love so completely. And I have this sinking feeling that you could…just maybe you might…be able to fulfill that in-kind. But you know what that means don’t you? That means I must step-out onto what the-state-i-am-in calls a shared stage and exist with you in the present. I must step-out of who I am…who I am so thoroughly convinced I am and also become who YOU think I am. And I am not so sure I will want to see myself through your eyes. No...I know I don't. I won't be able to control what you see very well.

    And I will need to dance with you on a stage where I will step on your feet and where you will step on mine and I do not know which will be more painful. I will disappoint you and you will disappoint me because on this plain we aren’t completely the idealized versions of us that exist in my head and I don’t want to learn that. We become very human in a space where I will have to react and respond to you in the moment. And in those moments I might not represent myself in a way that is reflective of who I am or worse…in a way that IS reflective of who I am but I wish to keep hidden. Even to myself.

    And once a mistake is made there is no going back. Because these moments are permanent scars on our history and cannot be undone. There is no rebirth. Time is not flowing forward and magically repairing the past as we do better. The energy of a mistake is not biodegradable. An error is forever. No…you know…I really can live without you. Without this. And because of this I am going to meet my own ethical needs – not yours. You see we have no shared needs. And in this way I am focusing on what is ecologically right for you. And I will create these truths. I love you. I will not let you love me. Your love is not big enough. I can live without you.

  3. #473
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    W/r to state and Vasilisa and StarryKnights,

    I suspect that Ni plays a huge role in "doorslamming" and filtering contacts with people. Ni tends to create proxies in our heads that stand for the real things. The problem is that the proxies are always slightly wrong, and sometimes very wrong. INFJs make the same mistakes as INTJs, they just are more diplomatic and emotional aware as they do so.

    The paradox elucidated by Vasilisa and explicated by StarryKnights is stunning and revealing. The paradox implies that one is thinking about things wrong, but the solution evades reason (never mind logic).

    Ni is very risk-avoidant, much more so than Ni users will usually admit. Thus INFJs and INTJs trade one set of problems (risking that one might be wrong) for another (taking no action or avoiding risk such that nothing is gained).

    Love entails risk. Period. If one would avoid that risk ... well, let me quote Kahlil Gibran:
    But if in your fear, you would only seek love's peace and love's pleasure,
    Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing floor,
    Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #474
    Symbolic Herald Array Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    W/r to state and Vasilisa and StarryKnights,

    I suspect that Ni plays a huge role in "doorslamming" and filtering contacts with people. Ni tends to create proxies in our heads that stand for the real things. The problem is that the proxies are always slightly wrong, and sometimes very wrong. INFJs make the same mistakes as INTJs, they just are more diplomatic and emotional aware as they do so.

    The paradox elucidated by Vasilisa and explicated by StarryKnights is stunning and revealing. The paradox implies that one is thinking about things wrong, but the solution evades reason (never mind logic).

    Ni is very risk-avoidant, much more so than Ni users will usually admit. Thus INFJs and INTJs trade one set of problems (risking that one might be wrong) for another (taking no action or avoiding risk such that nothing is gained).

    Here we go again
    .

    :confused: Should I reply? I am risk averse and think wrong. hmmm...
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  5. #475
    Symbolic Herald Array Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    What can we call this behavior?? can I just use the same list of questions I just asked?

    Whatever it is.. It stinks..
    I would call it betrayal. And I find it sickening.



    edit:

    I was relating to feelings described in a post due to a personal experience where I cut ties with a friend after she cruelly betrayed me in a hostile workplace, with agonizing consequences for me emotionally and professionally. I feel compassion for those whose honest trust gets betrayed.
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 01-28-2011 at 05:17 PM. Reason: its about me, not anyone else here
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  6. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post

    Here we go again
    .

    :confused: Should I reply? I am risk averse and think wrong. hmmm...
    Oh Vasilisa. I honestly did not wish to imply that you or even most INFJs were risk-avoidant. And I certainly did not wish to start a ‘here we go again’ kind of thing with regards to the doorslamming thread. In fact, while it is true that I was doorslammed…and hard. I am no longer in that place with my INFJ. I now find myself in a new place. A place where the door is open just a hair. And sometimes my INFJ will look through at me…trying to ascertain what is true/safe and what is not true/safe about me. But there is still a whole bunch of heavy furniture in front of the door…and quite a few of those chain-link gadgets on the door. Hence, I have been calling it ‘my (keyword my) INFJ experience’. And the only two people that exist within ‘my INFJ experience’ are me and my INFJ.

    The only reason I posted all of this here is in case someone else may get something out of it. Still, the story only applies to 2 people on this planet. And I promise you. As unbelievable as it may sound. Let me assure you I am not making up stories here. There really is an INFJ on this planet…currently in existence today…that is very, very risk-avoidant. And sometimes he is even wrong in his thinking. LOL.

    And uumlau. I almost spontaneously combusted when I saw Gibran’s quote. I am still having a slight hyperventilation episode. That very quote is EXACTLY what I have been reciting to myself over and over again for months now. When I doubt myself for loving the way I do. For living the way I do. For wondering why I am so stupid to take risks and expose who I am to another person…only to be hurt. In those moments when I want so badly to be a person that doesn’t do that. When I think there is no reason to set oneself up for that kind of pain. But then I will remember and recite that quote to myself. And that quote brings me back home.

  7. #477
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post

    Here we go again
    .

    :confused: Should I reply? I am risk averse and think wrong. hmmm...


    Like StarryKnights, I'm not trying to imply that any particular person is especially risk-averse, and certainly not to bring up the doorslamming thread again, but rather describing the role of Ni. Recall that we share being Ni doms. In recent years, I've been striving to become less risk-averse. The trick for Ni is that the stories we tell ourselves aren't quite true, and the only way for us to learn which parts are true or not is to take the risk and see for ourselves.

    Dancing, for me, helped a lot. Realizing that asking someone to dance wasn't about what they thought of me, but rather about what I thought of myself and whether I'd go and see if I might have a fun dance with them.

    And to StarryKnights, too. The reason love works the way it does is that there is no other way to motivate people to do something so profoundly right, but yet so imprudent or even irrational.
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    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post


    Like StarryKnights, I'm not trying to imply that any particular person is especially risk-averse, and certainly not to bring up the doorslamming thread again, but rather describing the role of Ni. Recall that we share being Ni doms. In recent years, I've been striving to become less risk-averse. The trick for Ni is that the stories we tell ourselves aren't quite true, and the only way for us to learn which parts are true or not is to take the risk and see for ourselves.

    Dancing, for me, helped a lot. Realizing that asking someone to dance wasn't about what they thought of me, but rather about what I thought of myself and whether I'd go and see if I might have a fun dance with them.

    And to StarryKnights, too. The reason love works the way it does is that there is no other way to motivate people to do something so profoundly right, but yet so imprudent or even irrational.
    This was one of the most beautiful things I have read on this site. And I am signing up for dance lessons. Seriously. I think that is exactly what I need in my life right now.

  9. #479
    Symbolic Herald Array Vasilisa's Avatar
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    StarryKnights, please don't be worried. I apologize for saying here we go again. I know no one is speaking about me, except me, and these discussions exist as a chance to share and perhaps gain insight and consider habits and thinking in different, more conscious ways.

    I was joking because there is just something so recursive about the idea of giving my perceptions of my perceptions, you know. Or the hangups that cause me to feel hung up which cause me to feel hung up. Or pehaps its more like infinite regression. Maybe you can understand. Surely, its this way for all types. Sometimes it feels like being in one of those recursive photographs



    eta: I feel you, ummlau Its so true about taking the chance. I put my heart at enormous risk to love and went through intense pain, but all said, I consider it probably the greatest privilege of my life.

    Here is a quote in kind:

    You cannot protect yourself from sadness without protecting yourself from happiness.

    Jonathan Safran Foer
    Last edited by Vasilisa; 02-04-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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  10. #480
    Senior Member Array the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think we need to keep in mind the risk-avoidant nature of head types in general. e5 and w5 are certainly risk-avoidant, i think, in obvious and recognizable ways (overwhelm and incapability being but two). e7 is not so obvious, but anyone who's had an e7 close, who knows the e7 panic attack, who knows the huge flee impulse, i mean it's risk avoidant just by finding other behaviors and the way that it only catches up to you when you can't run anymore and instead have to accept everything in order to truly fall asleep/rest.

    i think it's really hard to see what the kind of risk-economy looks like in the e5-e7 exchange. you may risk more in the moment, in terms of actual experience, but any negative situation we dwell on endlessly. it locks us into a prison cell that we do not know how to get out of. it replaces the real, and we rehearse it endlessly (okay maybe we both do this). but when we do, it takes us out o the little bit of experience we were able to get into (flow with) in the first place. it becomes this awful domino destruction and we don't know how to halt it without withdrawing and suffering our own emotional/anxiety aftershocks on our own. 5w4 and 4w5 are already so fucking sensitive in terms of interpreting themselves as DESTINED for this kind of disappointment. it's the e4 and w4.

    not to make excuses, just to say that there is always more truth that is not being seen from one side of the story. and from a Ti perspective, both sides are full of falsity as well, and harboring many (potentially) destructive illusions.

    umlau, understanding dancing in terms of your story is great. i empathize enough to respect the risk you've taken, because i feel it in my own life all the way down to my bones. i have very little experience dancing, but a girl who once wisked me away (quite literally), well, just remember how freeing, how awkward, how truly FINALLY enthused/liberated i felt in that moment!

    i don't know, starryknights, how to bridge the acceptance gap. i do it easier with entps than enfps (probably much like you do with intjs over infjs), but i don't immediately mean to suggest that it is better. both sides have to be able to stand apart (i feel like matching the gibran quotes about the pillars, but do not drink from the same cup, etc). you need your truth apart from the truth of the other, and more accurately, apart from the fluctuations and disturbances of the other. faith in the truth you have to give, to me, is the most attractive thing about Fi. it makes a different quality/kind of love possible. not just compassion but faith. to find a way to balance the infj need to be on the same page and the enfp need to be accepted on her own individual page, yes, of course, it's an ongoing mystery we are inching closer towards.

    the other thing tho is to recognize what are interactional mistakes and what are real, more long-term issues. i'm terrible at openings and closings. as i've said, i'm terrible at public performance, at initiating smoothly scaled interactino from the social to the sexual, or the intimate, whilst the social continues, while that must still be monitored and responded to. those are interactional deficits that will continue, but, at the same time, many of my long-term core of me especially under stress conditions are dissolving/dissipating. you sound like you are both running into those, and your desire to continue to work on the relationship with your infj is also your desire to work on yourself. and while the relationship is improving, you are improving all the more. the relationship may never fully release these issues, but you through the relationship may. and you will be so much better off, while still keeping the care and compassion that initiated the whole story (of your growth).

    finally, the purity of your intent is one thing. he may have great and pure intentions as well. trust in that is only part of the story. the other part is trust in yourself, sympathy with yourself, acceptance of yourself. that allows you to not be edward scissorhands. that protects you from your own sharpness, from the destructiveness that you were mostly born with and have used to build your own ego into a foundation to differentiate, to build a sense of you. but to at the same time begin to move beyond it is what opens up the possibility of real risk, of real trust. esp from the infj side. you trust that you will be able to do right even when you are cut, hurt, slighted, injured, etc.

    ok, last thing: i'm claiming gibran as an infj 5w4 sx/sp. just saying.

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