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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #381
    thankful Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    The real me is a thing that watches to see what you will be like in order to gauge what it will be like.
    Which makes me feel like you want me to assume more of the risk. Is that true?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  2. #382
    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    As long as we are talking about INFP/INFJ dynamics (and we kinda were, right?) I though I'd share one difference I see. My xNFJ acquaintances tend to share there enthusiasms in a way that makes it seem like they expect me to reflect their excitement back at them. That is, they seem to share partially with the intent of me sharing their excitement because I might already like X (whatever it is) or that I will get excited because they like X and give it a try (and that they are doing me a service by sharing something good with me). Or even that I should get excited about their excitement (for its own sake) in X.

    As an INFP I tend to take in their enthusiasm, understand it (to some degree), but not necessarily reflect it or take it up myself. This sometimes leads to some awkward pauses, as though I'm an actor who just missed a cue. Is that just me, or do you find the non-reflecting, absorbing quality of INFPs sometimes throws you off stride, slightly? I think INFPs tend to react to social cues less, relative to INFJs.

    I do understand what cascadeco and fidelia were getting at with having layers, although I more feel like I'm either entirely holding back or entirely open and vulnerable. If I feel like I'm likely to be judged (or feel like I'm still being actively evaluated) I do tend to hold back showing my true self. I can see where this could lead to a failure to connect with some INFJs, which is shame from my perspective

    Hope you don't mind yet another INFP butting into the "Common INFJ Issues" thread.

  3. #383
    4x9 Array cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    to inspiration!

    Thank you for so clearly revealing your methods of communicating. It's a wonderful and illuminative post; I appreciate the detail and it is mind-expanding to read and ponder. I am still engaging with it on a number of different levels.
    Aww, thanks.

    I want to share some more on this topic, and as an INFP to an INFJ. In case it didn't appear clear, I adapt to the people I am interacting with as well, in a similar manner you describe - except if I diverge too far from a certain locus, or am around a great number of people, the chameleon-like nature of my interactions starts to seem false to me, as though I am losing my core self in there somehow. (That I am merging too far and will lose the essence of me, to all these people who need / enjoy different aspects of me.) The core is what I want to stress here though. The way I choose to interact in the world IS an expression of who I am. I don't view it as layers, I see it more as a set of concentric circles, where the closer you get to know me the closer to the core you get. But the core is always ... there. Does that illustrate any difference between how I see myself and how you view yourself?
    To the bolded...yes, I think it does. I think it does, because I cannot say I identify a 'core' within myself. Being totally honest here!! Re. my contrasting 'layers' --> perhaps it would make more sense in this comparison to utilize the word 'pieces'/elements/components, instead. I have these various components, all connected in a whole, but there isn't a 'core' to any of it, I don't think. I don't believe you dig deeper and deeper to find an essence or nugget right at the center - all of the pieces are conglomerated in one mass - Me - and they all, in a sense, carry the same weight. It's just that Person A might only relate to and see a handful of the pieces, and Person B might see a different set of pieces. More pieces = closer, as you know more elements of what constitutes who I am, and it means more of myself can be engaged in the interaction with you, and our relationship.

    And to add some extra nuance to this, if I am "reading" you and also adjusting my interaction to connect with you, but you are ... staying neutral, remaining uncommitted to a path of interaction, I will likely not pursue a relationship with you over time. It won't be overnight, and I will try again to connect, but if I sense you reading more than you are giving I will simply emotionally block you and not permit any exploration of my psyche, nor will I feel willing to lay down a pattern you can piece together. I will block you before you block me (generally speaking). Which saddens me, because I don't meet many INF's in the "real world" ... but, I just can't chameleon around someone trying to get a bead on me at the same time and taking notes.
    This seems completely fair to me. If I were to meet you, or anyone else, and over a length of time I continued being more 'neutral' and obviously wasn't engaging deeply, then it *might* indicate that I haven't gotten a sense of you yet, OR it might indicate that I've kind of decided already that I don't see a deep connection being possible. And, I think it would be fair/reasonable for you to 'block' me.

    As you rightly concluded, cascadeco, I am not judging the authenticity of Fe / intent at all, but - and here's the big but - the price of really connecting with you will feel too ... insecure to me. If our time communicating is like water, then I need to know where the shore is located. Also, the sense I generally receive - that you are storing a library of our past "moments" to use in the present - can feel disingenuous to the reality of NOW. I don't know how else to explain that at the moment, so forgive that. I will expand on this and try to clarify later.
    To the bolded, this might tie into what a few were discussing earlier in the thread, re. myself / infj's having difficulty in the Moment, and not necessarily placing as much value on present emotions/etc, and placing more weight on consistency and overall patterns in a person or relationship. Needing to make sure that any 'new' data or any new turn in the relationship's dynamic is there for the long run, and isn't just a temporary thing. So might not 'trust' in the present or the moment until it seems a certain thing?

    I guess what I am saying is that ... if you are trying to watch me all the time, I will just block you out. Then you will likely drop trying to read me (thus place me in whatever category you wish on the Fe rate-o-meter) without me having to do the dirty work of avoiding you.
    Again, I don't think this is unreasonable. Any relationship takes two people to make it work, and if one or the other just isn't connecting, isn't prioritizing, or doesn't see it, then there will be active blocking or passive/neutral/apathetic blocking.

    On my end, while I have known a few INFP's irl and find them to be interesting, cool people, they remain the one INxx type I haven't really bonded deeply with, and don't really know how to; we just seem to approach and see things from such vastly different perspectives - and it's not even just big things, it's just little ways of going about everyday life details or making plans or the like - very different. It isn't a 'natural'/spontaneous process for me as it can be with other types. I dunno. I wonder whether one reason may be INFP's being driven by that 'core' and my not identifying with that concept in the sense that you are? Other reasons of course, too. I mean, if we're gonna talk theory (of which I'm not a huge fan, haha), we don't share any functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour
    As an INFP I tend to take in their enthusiasm, understand it (to some degree), but not necessarily reflect it or take it up myself. This sometimes leads to some awkward pauses, as though I'm an actor who just missed a cue. Is that just me, or do you find the non-reflecting, absorbing quality of INFPs sometimes throws you off stride, slightly? I think INFPs tend to react to social cues less, relative to INFJs.
    I'm really thrown off without cues/feedback. If I don't get any responses or whatnot, I can almost feel immobilized, or like the other person doesn't care, or *isn't even listening.* That, in turn, makes me clam up and not feel comfortable sharing more. [The response doesn't have to reflect the level of what I'm expressing - any response -- eye-contact with head nod, saying uh-huh or 'Ah, I see', will suffice. I just need to know that you're in fact listening. It's one thing I've noticed with INFP's specifically (not to pick on you guys, it's just something I've encountered with all 3 I've known) -- poor eye contact or lack of, as well as lack of much response half the time, either verbally or with body language, such that I have a hard time knowing whether they're listening or are instead off in la-la land. It definitely throws me off. But when I've brought this up with them they say they are in fact listening, and that if they actually looked at me while I was talking, they'd be more distracted than without looking. I'm still thrown off though; it's distracting for me when they don't give a cue, just as it's distracting for them when they do? haha. ]

    This also ties to what was being discussed earlier re. INFJ's responding very well to questions, and actually desiring that, rather than volunteering information.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #384
    The Black Knight Array Domino's Avatar
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    Admit it, INFPs. You just want to eat our brains!!
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  5. #385
    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Admit it, INFPs. You just want to eat our brains!!
    No thanks! I'm still full from dinner. Understanding your brains, though...

  6. #386
    You have a choice! Array 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    As an INFP I tend to take in their enthusiasm, understand it (to some degree), but not necessarily reflect it or take it up myself. This sometimes leads to some awkward pauses, as though I'm an actor who just missed a cue. Is that just me, or do you find the non-reflecting, absorbing quality of INFPs sometimes throws you off stride, slightly? I think INFPs tend to react to social cues less, relative to INFJs.
    I might be entirely wrong here, but I think when Fe people do that (show enthusiasm about something and try to convince you it's good), they always leave a way for you to back out gracefully. When you don't seem to see the way and they sense awkwardness, they might even try to nudge you towards that way. One of the weird things Fe does

  7. #387
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You know what's interesting to me, if this were a real-life scenario ... I can feel you "feeling me" and trying to get a read on me, and I find this generally uncomfortable and makes me put my guard up against your "observations". And, can also make me feel a tad insecure ... like I am on "pins and needles" around you ... I'm not sure what the right thing is to "do" around you, what is the right thing to "be".

    You are watching to see what I will be like in order to gauge what you will be like, and what I want is the real you from the get-go. It's almost counter-productive.
    What Cascadeo wrote fits me pretty well too. The 'real' me is just a pile of thoughts. And watching people is kind of about figuring out which language to translate those thoughts into for the most effective communication.

    edit: It's also worth mentioning that when I have to act before I've sized someone up- that's exactly when they're not getting the 'real' me. That's just me slapping together any ol' answer I can to be polite- but it least reflects the 'real' me because I haven't had time to translate the 'real' me yet. When I'm just improvising like that, the stuff I say is least attached to my real opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Which makes me feel like you want me to assume more of the risk. Is that true?
    Not really. I don't really expect others to initiate interaction. There's really not much I can do about being slow myself, and I certainly don't expect others to move at a faster pace than they can handle either.

    Actually, I usually kind of feel like I've met a kindred spirit when I cross paths with someone who needs to size things up as much as I do. I feel like the pressure's off, because the person already understands and needs that space him/herself.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  8. #388
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    These particular questions were branching off of the behavior I have observed in INTJs lately. They are neat as they share my Fi/Te judging functions but dont share my perceptive modes-they are Ni/Se like you guys.

    So I am sort of carrying across the diffs to see the contrasts once all four functions are opposite.
    Have you asked a pile of INTJs these same questions yet? (Is there a thread around here somewhere with this in it?)
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #389
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    These particular questions were branching off of the behavior I have observed in INTJs lately. They are neat as they share my Fi/Te judging functions but dont share my perceptive modes-they are Ni/Se like you guys.

    So I am sort of carrying across the diffs to see the contrasts once all four functions are opposite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Have you asked a pile of INTJs these same questions yet? (Is there a thread around here somewhere with this in it?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    What Cascadeo wrote fits me pretty well too. The 'real' me is just a pile of thoughts. And watching people is kind of about figuring out which language to translate those thoughts into for the most effective communication.

    edit: It's also worth mentioning that when I have to act before I've sized someone up- that's exactly when they're not getting the 'real' me. That's just me slapping together any ol' answer I can to be polite- but it least reflects the 'real' me because I haven't had time to translate the 'real' me yet. When I'm just improvising like that, the stuff I say is least attached to my real opinions.
    Interestingly, this is exactly how I approach things, but I there's a distinctly different flavor with Te instead of Fe. With Fe, I suspect that what other people are sensing is a "tentative connection." Fi doesn't do "tentative," it's just there, which is why ENFPs seem so "in your face" and INTJs are usually completely closed off, emotionally. Fe adds shades of connections, for which Fi needs much more time and training to learn.

    In my younger days as an INTJ, I made no connection. I wasn't interested in a connection. I was too afraid to make a connection. (For you INFJs, imagine if you're trying to gauge a person with Ni/Fe, but your Fe stopped working: you try to make predictions and they just don't work. That's what it's like to be a young INTJ trying to connect with people.)

    And when I said "approach things", I meant things literally: I use Te with my Ni. I study and plan and figure out the ins and outs of the system before actually doing anything with it. This is what others feel from INFJs: they sense the studying and planning and attempts to figure out how another person "works". The reason most people don't feel that from INTJs is that it's aimed at things, not people, because we've mostly given up trying to figure out people (or more accurately, we still try to figure out people as if they were things - following objective, consistent rules - and thus the most one "feels" from an INTJ is the "INTJ stare.")

    Actually, I usually kind of feel like I've met a kindred spirit when I cross paths with someone who needs to size things up as much as I do. I feel like the pressure's off, because the person already understands and needs that space him/herself.
    Yeah, I think this is why INTJs and INFJs who meet in real life generally get along just fine. I've had some of the best discussions with INFJs because they delve deeply with an ever-so-slightly different intuitive perspective (due to Fe) than mine, but we can explain each others' points-of-view extremely quickly (so long as we don't get lost in a Fe/Te context shift).

  10. #390
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    ^Interesting.

    So Orobas & uumlau, what would your answer to this look like:

    Would you say people provide the context for situations you are in? If you were presented a people problem, but the people were not specific people, but rather abstract people, would it be harder for you to decide what the right or wrong decision was? For instance "person A and person B walk into a room. Person A does this...Was that wrong/right?"

    It seems to me like 'the truth' is A LOT more relative to Ti/Fe. In fact, I'm hesitent to say 'the truth', because it sounds so final.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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