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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Annwn View Post
    This resonates with me also. My default setting is to like a person, but not to trust them. It takes a lot to get me to dislike or trust. I could compare it to the way I feel about many living things including wolves and grizzlies. I see it as a fairly accurate way of viewing others. To encounter any living thing is worthy of amazement and respect, but that doesn't mean they are incapable of harm.
    WOW.

    I am almost inverse.... I may not like everyone...but i tend to trust them as being forthright and having the best intent even if they hurt others inadvertently. It takes me some amount of time to connect emotionally and like a person...but I tend to trust intent almost immediately.

    Why would one person intentionally harm another? It really boggles my mind when I see this occur...yet i know it happens intentionally. I recall learning this last year about ENTPs...and just being utterly heartbroken that my favorite type of people would intentionally hurt me....I was so niave.

  2. #362
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    One thing that has come up in various threads is the INFJ making conclusions about how a relationship or conversation would go and abandoning it before giving the other person a chance to adapt or change.

    I was thinking about why I do this and I believe it is a combination of things. Firstly, I don't change my own mind easily, and so I often assume that others are more immovable than they really are, or that they've thought of and chosen to reject certain possibilities when maybe they haven't considered that option and would be open to it. Secondly, I tend to trust my gut feelings about something and sometimes even though I can't completely articulate why, I trust how I feel about something.
    It seems to me like a common INFJ tendency to sort of accumulate mental post-it notes about people more than most other types. We take note of particular experiences here and there and add it to the construct we’re forever erecting in our heads (which is why it’s a big deal to change one of the mental post-its, because it might be one that several others are based on). It’s hard to pull up the information right away, about why we’ve written any of the specific post-its that we have, but we’re always aware of the post-its nonetheless. I’m very careful about the mental post-its I leave for myself (which isn’t to say I’m never wrong, I’m just saying I’m circumspect about it), so I generally trust the ones I have.

    Thirdly, I've learned that many types are not look-down-the-road-people. They're more take it as it comes. For me, I want to know that something is worth the possible effort or pain it involves before embarking on it. I don't tend to believe the somehow it'll work out eventually way of looking at things that some people are able to have. Also as Toonia said, my default position is understanding that whether intentionally or not, every person is capable of causing harm. Therefore it is up to me to be vigilant about considering what kind of potential harm I allow to happen to myself or the others involved by taking a particular course of action or taking a chance on something.
    I never abandon conversation (or some such experience with a person) before it’s had a chance unless one of my post-it notes tells me that a certain kind of conversation (or other experience) with a specific person will probably lead to a dead end. So while it’s a decision regarding present or future action, it’s always based on past experience with that person. For me, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    ENTPs are the master of sarcasm and funny witty Ti jokes. I have seen several of my INFJ-ENTP pairs really have a great time with either Ti sarcastic quips at each other or playing Ti word games where they talk about funny Ti precision in interesting, albeit esoteric words-vocabulary. It ends up being a source of relaxation, a break from the daily routine for each. Perhaps a break from maintaining the Fe control each needs over their lives??? (I really have no idea.) It is sorta like each knows that there is a game being played all around them and they agree you have to play the game...but they are laughing about the game at the same time. It really is quite cute to be honest
    I don’t know that I’ve actually known any ENTPs irl, but I know that I absolutely get a release from the sense of humor of the two INTPs I know. My dad (one of them) is the funniest person I’ve ever met. He’s also the quietest. Sometimes- in situations that seem really dire, like the sky itself is going to cave in- he somehow comes up with just a couple of funny words to put the whole thing in perspective and make the clouds instantly part. It’s like- not only does he understand the entire construct I’ve built in my head, but he can effectively switch a few things around (the word play) to turn anything into a comedy. I *think* that’s what you’re talking about?

    So yeah, INFJs tend to take things too seriously at times- with all our mental post it notes to organize and all- and it brings an incredible sense of relief when someone can come along and effectively lighten us up. At least for me it is.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #363
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    WOW.

    I am almost inverse.... I may not like everyone...but i tend to trust them as being forthright and having the best intent even if they hurt others inadvertently. It takes me some amount of time to connect emotionally and like a person...but I tend to trust intent almost immediately.

    Why would one person intentionally harm another? It really boggles my mind when I see this occur...yet i know it happens intentionally. I recall learning this last year about ENTPs...and just being utterly heartbroken that my favorite type of people would intentionally hurt me....I was so niave.
    Usually a person will intentionally harm someone else when they themselves feel insecure and defensive and need to look out for themselves because they believe no one else will. That's why it's important to be careful who you involve yourself with. However, I think more often, people unintentionally hurt people either through ignorance, not understanding the implications of their actions, or just trying to get their own needs met. This is one of the reasons that I usually approach people expecting the best of them, but also with awareness that most people have a best side and a worst side to them. It takes time to figure out what comprises both, so until some time has passed, or I have reliable references that I think show good judgement of character, I wait to put too much trust in them. They need to show themselves trustworthy in smaller things before I'd put my faith in the them for the big ones.

  4. #364
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Concur with all the points you made, Z Buck. I'd say that reflects my own experiences as well.

  5. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I don’t know that I’ve actually known any ENTPs irl, but I know that I absolutely get a release from the sense of humor of the two INTPs I know. My dad (one of them) is the funniest person I’ve ever met. He’s also the quietest. Sometimes- in situations that seem really dire, like the sky itself is going to cave in- he somehow comes up with just a couple of funny words to put the whole thing in perspective and make the clouds instantly part. It’s like- not only does he understand the entire construct I’ve built in my head, but he can effectively switch a few things around (the word play) to turn anything into a comedy. I *think* that’s what you’re talking about?

    So yeah, INFJs tend to take things too seriously at times- with all our mental post it notes to organize and all- and it brings an incredible sense of relief when someone can come along and effectively lighten us up. At least for me it is.
    So just to tie up the loose end..since the convo has diverged a bit..

    Do you guys see how the NeTi..in the INTP in ZB's case... brings a sense of relief? An ENFP does the same thing with Fi to an IXTJ-which is why they find our glow charming, not annoying.

    If an ENFP shows up in flutterbug glow mode, it would annoy you guys, you would find it disruptive, but it taps into the IXTJs tert Fi...thus they find it a relief and find it charming.

    If an ENTP (or INTP) shows up in logical sarcasm mode, it would annoy the INTJs and they would find it disrputive, but it taps into your tert Ti...thus you find it funny and a relief.


    Do you see the almost mathematical symmetry of the two sentences above? This is how my Ne works. It makes up many sets of relationships like this and then plays down the paths endlessly exploring. Sometimes it is all guesswork and totally wrong, but sometimes it makes really interesting predictions.

  6. #366
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    If an ENFP shows up in flutterbug glow mode, it would annoy you guys, you would find it disruptive, but it taps into the IXTJs tert Fi...thus they find it a relief and find it charming.

    If an ENTP (or INTP) shows up in logical sarcasm mode, it would annoy the INTJs and they would find it disrputive, but it taps into your tert Ti...thus you find it funny and a relief.
    ^ooooooh. So THAT'S what you meant by Fi/Ti symmetry. That makes total sense. Interesting.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #367

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It seems to me like a common INFJ tendency to sort of accumulate mental post-it notes about people more than most other types. We take note of particular experiences here and there and add it to the construct we’re forever erecting in our heads (which is why it’s a big deal to change one of the mental post-its, because it might be one that several others are based on). It’s hard to pull up the information right away, about why we’ve written any of the specific post-its that we have, but we’re always aware of the post-its nonetheless. I’m very careful about the mental post-its I leave for myself (which isn’t to say I’m never wrong, I’m just saying I’m circumspect about it), so I generally trust the ones I have.

    I never abandon conversation (or some such experience with a person) before it’s had a chance unless one of my post-it notes tells me that a certain kind of conversation (or other experience) with a specific person will probably lead to a dead end. So while it’s a decision regarding present or future action, it’s always based on past experience with that person. For me, anyway.
    Your descriptions are so fascinating ZB. What is a "dead end" for you? What is the goal of interacting with the person? What do INFJs seek to accomplish when you interact with another person? How do you know if you have achieved the outcomes you are seeking? (This may be phrased funny, as I use Te words that might not quite accurately describe what you guys are really doing, feel free to correct or rephrase for any of my questions ...)

    Do you find you ever get in a situation where you are trying to figure out if you should interact with a person or not...but cant really see far enough forward on the future path to be certain...so you freeze up and get sorta stuck, or choose not to take any path?

    Did you find that when younger you were less likely or more likely to trust/distrust your mental post it notes? Did you learn over time to be more careful about post it note entries or is this a very natural, instinctual process?

    Would you say people provide the context for situations you are in? If you were presented a people problem, but the people were not specific people, but rather abstract people, would it be harder for you to decide what the right or wrong decision was? For instance "person A and person B walk into a room. Person A does this...Was that wrong/right?"

    Do you find that while behavioral inconsistency in others does bother you, once you understand the root, you can rationalize and/or establish an Ni context and accept the person?

    (This is huge in my EXTP interactions. The ENFP behavioral (emo-moody) inconsistency sends up red flags to their tert Fe. Only those I am very, very close are okay with it, as they have established a meta Ti map for Fi emotional fluctuation in me , treating me as a Ti system. With the others I have to careful to never let them see what I feel, or they lose trust. I wasnt sure how flexible NiFe is in this regard.)

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    WOW.

    I am almost inverse.... I may not like everyone...but i tend to trust them as being forthright and having the best intent even if they hurt others inadvertently. It takes me some amount of time to connect emotionally and like a person...but I tend to trust intent almost immediately.
    What do you dislike about people who have the best intent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Why would one person intentionally harm another? It really boggles my mind when I see this occur...yet i know it happens intentionally. I recall learning this last year about ENTPs...and just being utterly heartbroken that my favorite type of people would intentionally hurt me....I was so niave.
    It is interesting that you inserted the word 'intentionally', because that wasn't in my post. I see intention as a grey area because it is not unusual for those who cause tremendous harm to have an internal justification for it. Some might even call it a "good" intention. Those times when a person deliberately causes harm it can also be based on feelings of powerlessness and fear. By imposing dominance and overpowering another person they reassure themselves that they have power. The comparisons I made to wolves or grizzlies also emphasizes people acting according to their nature and not focusing specifically on intent whether measured as "good" or "bad". In looking at history or observing people, even just any given family dynamic there is a a great deal of pain that people inflict on each other.

    I don't think it is possible to fully love unless one can look at the ugliness and pain in the reality of human interaction and look for understanding and non-judgment rather than responding by hating and in turn inflicting more judgment and punishment. But I think it is important to have a raw honesty about the hurt that exists.
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  9. #369
    Senior Member Array mochajava's Avatar
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    This whole post is so on, incredibly well-written, and I love the post-it note analogy. Keep reading below in case you skimmed it above -mj

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    It seems to me like a common INFJ tendency to sort of accumulate mental post-it notes about people more than most other types. We take note of particular experiences here and there and add it to the construct we’re forever erecting in our heads (which is why it’s a big deal to change one of the mental post-its, because it might be one that several others are based on). It’s hard to pull up the information right away, about why we’ve written any of the specific post-its that we have, but we’re always aware of the post-its nonetheless. I’m very careful about the mental post-its I leave for myself (which isn’t to say I’m never wrong, I’m just saying I’m circumspect about it), so I generally trust the ones I have.



    I never abandon conversation (or some such experience with a person) before it’s had a chance unless one of my post-it notes tells me that a certain kind of conversation (or other experience) with a specific person will probably lead to a dead end. So while it’s a decision regarding present or future action, it’s always based on past experience with that person. For me, anyway.



    I don’t know that I’ve actually known any ENTPs irl, but I know that I absolutely get a release from the sense of humor of the two INTPs I know. My dad (one of them) is the funniest person I’ve ever met. He’s also the quietest. Sometimes- in situations that seem really dire, like the sky itself is going to cave in- he somehow comes up with just a couple of funny words to put the whole thing in perspective and make the clouds instantly part. It’s like- not only does he understand the entire construct I’ve built in my head, but he can effectively switch a few things around (the word play) to turn anything into a comedy. I *think* that’s what you’re talking about?

    So yeah, INFJs tend to take things too seriously at times- with all our mental post it notes to organize and all- and it brings an incredible sense of relief when someone can come along and effectively lighten us up. At least for me it is.

  10. #370
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    @Z Buck

    the mental post-its analogy is right on.

    Lately, I have been telling myself not to stick to those internal scripts so much but to let the script play itself as it were.

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