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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #351
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, I can identify with that too. I remember being surprised to find out that others didn't see it that way.

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    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    @bold: exactly. Well-expressed. And that is definitely how it comes across, as though I am making speculative statements or specious arguments, or wish to deceive somehow ... Why would I speak if I did not know what I was talking about?
    This is the part that scares me, that people would think I'd not simply be wrong, but intentionally deceiving. I see a few possibilities why:

    • They've been burned by unscrupulous people very often.
    • That's what they'd do themselves, if they had something to gain by it and thought they could get away with it.
    • They have no good means of analyzing your statement, and must rely on the trust factor before proceeding.


    You have accumulated a great deal of admiration and "reputation points" on this forum uumlau ... and it will take you far. The problem resides however, in the fact that what you say now rests more on that reputation, and not the facts. People will accept what you say based on your reputation ALONE. Instead of using and having their own mind to challenge you and do their own due diligence.

    This is a significant failing of Fe / Ti ... and don't get me wrong, Fe users - Fi / Te has blind spots too, but I am not talking about that right now.
    Actually, this brings up another consideration. All of this talk of trust and reputation: there's a Te kind of trust, too, in which the Te speaker trusts that his listeners are thinking for themselves and analyzing his words to determine their merit.

    This is very much the opposite of the Fe style trust. In the Fe case, it's about whether the listener trusts the speaker. In the Te case, it's whether the speaker trusts the listener.

    If a Te speaker trusts you, you're going to get very blunt and plain speech, raw facts and speculation, without much qualification about how much may be correct or incorrect. The Te speaker is trusting you to correct him, if needed. This style, as already mentioned, tends to repel Fe/Ti listeners, as it sounds arrogant or condescending.

    If I don't trust a listener, and I need that listener to understand something, I am very very careful to have all of my facts correct, and I'm very careful to make sure that the listener understands what I'm saying.

    W/r to my rep, I very much like being taken seriously. My favorite part of becoming an adult was that I could say the same kinds of things I did as a kid, and people would just listen and then discuss them with me. I don't like it, however, when people just accept what I say without question. For one thing, part of the fun is the discussion. For another, I don't get the feedback that I might be wrong about something.

    Even though the Te world sounds like it's making bald assertions, full of self-certainty and arrogance, it's in actuality an ongoing Quality Assurance process, where we try to let each other know about possible errors and their corrections.

  3. #353
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    One thing that has come up in various threads is the INFJ making conclusions about how a relationship or conversation would go and abandoning it before giving the other person a chance to adapt or change.

    I was thinking about why I do this and I believe it is a combination of things. Firstly, I don't change my own mind easily, and so I often assume that others are more immovable than they really are, or that they've thought of and chosen to reject certain possibilities when maybe they haven't considered that option and would be open to it. Secondly, I tend to trust my gut feelings about something and sometimes even though I can't completely articulate why, I trust how I feel about something. Thirdly, I've learned that many types are not look-down-the-road-people. They're more take it as it comes. For me, I want to know that something is worth the possible effort or pain it involves before embarking on it. I don't tend to believe the somehow it'll work out eventually way of looking at things that some people are able to have. Also as Toonia said, my default position is understanding that whether intentionally or not, every person is capable of causing harm. Therefore it is up to me to be vigilant about considering what kind of potential harm I allow to happen to myself or the others involved by taking a particular course of action or taking a chance on something.

  4. #354
    thankful Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is the part that scares me, that people would think I'd not simply be wrong, but intentionally deceiving.
    I hear you. It's a challenge to integrity, and I want to respond back, "How could you believe that about me?" My Fi values include honest interactions; if you start off doubting my motives, it feels like a personal affront.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    All of this talk of trust and reputation: there's a Te kind of trust, too, in which the Te speaker trusts that his listeners are thinking for themselves and analyzing his words to determine their merit.

    ... and

    The Te speaker is trusting you to correct him, if needed. This style, as already mentioned, tends to repel Fe/Ti listeners, as it sounds arrogant or condescending.
    I think there's another dimension to this as well; that the Te tert or inferior is somewhat intimidated by the certainty of the Te dom or aux, and hesitates to question the authority that the Te predominant person emanates.

    My hubs is an ESTJ; especially earlier in our marriage (in our 20's), when working on home improvement projects or even just going for a drive, he would sound so certain on how to proceed that even though I was quite sure he was wrong, I hesitated to speak up and voice my thoughts or correct his.

    He would get so annoyed! He'd say, "If you knew I was doing it wrong, why didn't you speak up?" I would say, "But you sounded so confident!"

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Even though the Te world sounds like it's making bald assertions, full of self-certainty and arrogance, it's in actuality an ongoing Quality Assurance process, where we try to let each other know about possible errors and their corrections.
    Wonderful, exactly. My hubs is on holidays this week and even as I type we are working outdoors, doing some big landscaping changes. I work to his Te style these days - instead of all the thoughts of what I want to do just sitting in my head unvoiced I say them out, like a stream of consciousness. It helps him correct me and me correct him, and there's little Fi about such discourses at all. (Most of the time !! LOL)

    He WANTS to know when I disagree, and it's not personal at all. So this is another layer (to Te dom or aux communication); obviously a bit of a derail here, but some thoughts that struck me whilst out gardening. (And I'd better get back out there ... )

    -----

    And another thought on the whole dynamic of reputation. I have worked a few IT contracts of longer duration (2-3 years each). Once past the 6 months "proving I can play with the big boys" phase, I could pretty much do whatever I wanted. Suddenly, no one would question my decisions. And that was cool, in a way. But also, dangerous. Not that I would do anything BAD, but I am a fallible human, no matter how credentialed or experienced. The thought that I could pretty much proceed with whatever plans I cooked up without opposition or intelligent analysis was a little ... alarming.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #355
    Dreaming the life Array onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Show him how? We were talking on the phone. All he had to do was go to the Help for Visual Studio or SQL Server and look up "datetime". I directed him to the relevant info. There's a bit of an oddity, here, though: no respectable developer entirely believes documentation. The 100% correct documentation would mention date and time, but not mention word one about time zones, thus leaving room for doubt.

    Should *I* write the "test code"? He wouldn't trust MY test code, he'd have to write it himself.

    No, the problem here was similar to one I've had in many instances, where I'm solving a problem with other technically adept people. I'll figure it out in about 10 minutes, while they're still barely getting started, and then I spend the next hour explaining it to them. This really isn't a big deal to me, and I patiently go through everything. What I hear very often, though, is "but it shouldn't work that way," or "that isn't how it's supposed to be," as if that were a rebuttal to my analysis. To which my reply is "I know ... that's why it's broken ... "
    You can see why others would see that approach as arrogant, right? People generally like to think of themselves as fairly smart. Now, if you come across as always having it down so much quickly than others, then that's naturally going to build resentment. No one likes to be one-upped, a lesson I know all too well.

    When they say "it shouldn't work that way", they aren't looking for a response that says "well it does"... because that's obvious to everyone. If I'd offer any suggestion there, it's that when you get that sort of response, instead of saying "I know it's not working the way it's supposed to", ask "how is it supposed to work?" What happens there is that when you've laid out the basic principles, and the logical steps, both of you can use your relative thinking strengths to come up with a working solution. So in that scenario, instead of just telling him that the date time variables don't store time zone info, how do you think he would have responded if you asked "do you think that would happen if the date time variables didn't store time zone information?"

    There is a mindset where it just takes a while to unlearn whatever it is you thought you knew and replace it with the new correct information.
    If it ain't broke, don't fix it... until it gets broke.

    Not really. This is a fellow who has managed to get into one-sided shouting matches with INTJ (me), INFJ (coworker) and INTP (another coworker) alike. He sits back all calm and collected, sure in his knowledge, and will never be convinced by anyone else's words, no matter how well-presented or reasonable. A typical trivial disagreement ends with "Oh, you mean <his version of technical term> where <more technical info>" "Yes, that's right." "Why didn't you say so in the first place?!" "I did. Over and over. A different way each time." If it's nontrivial, it's worse.
    Some people have issues. Sorry you have to deal with them.

    His reply to each of my statements and re-explanations was "But I don't understand how that can be true," and variations on a theme. Basically, zero feedback for me to gauge where his misunderstanding lies. Remember, it took me two hours of digging to figure out where the misunderstanding was, and another two to finally convince him to verify it for himself.
    He probably takes great pride in his intelligence, and feels defensive if you try to attack it head-on. Unfortunately, we still have to deal with people when they're not on their best behavior. It would be nice if we could engage with people in our own way all the time, but as you see, it just ends up leading to conflict and wasted time.

    This is your Ti perspective. Half of the people on the planet don't think this way.
    That is an entirely too easy way to write off what I'm saying, and I don't appreciate it.

    It is implied when Te person A says "That's bogus" it means "I believe that to be untrue," and several clear reasons for the assertion will follow.
    Is that every time, or could it be "I'm in a bad mood and don't want to discuss it further" or "this doesn't fit my worldview?" Te doesn't have a monopoly on objective truth, and I sense a bit of a bias in that direction in your writings.

    With an INTJ or INFJ or INFP, the "datetime" conversation would last 5 minutes. With an INTP, it would last maybe half an hour, as the INTP does some extra digging to fully understand what I'm getting at. The fellow in my example is rather extreme.
    Any of them could have responded that way. Any of them. Psychological complexes are not specific to type. They may correlate from time to time, but it's not a hard rule by any stretch of the imagination.

    They have a right to say, "I don't believe that's true."
    They have a right to say, "I believe what you just said is incorrect."
    They have a right to say, "That's wrong."

    They don't have a right to say, "I think you're lying."
    They absolutely do. How do they know your intentions? If they don't know you, how could they know your intentions?

    The onus for communication is both on speaker and listener. It is the job of the speaker to present information as clearly as possible. It is the job of the listener to listen with an open mind: any preconception, especially any preconception that dismisses the possibility oneself being wrong, is an impediment to communication.
    This is positively false. If I am speaking to someone, I am trying to get information across. If the information does not get across, then I have failed, because I am the active member of the exchange. Like it or not, there is no way to "listen" better than simply paying attention.

    Those preconceptions aren't something that can be controlled within a conversational exchange, because everyone carries their own preconceptions with them, and there is no way anyone can change that. Even "I must always be open-minded" is a preconception, and one that can clearly be untrue.

    In the end, it is the one speaking who carries the burden of communication, and is responsible for its success or failure. That being said, failing to communicate with someone like the person you mentioned before is nothing to be ashamed of. It would take some of the most skilled communicators on the planet to get through to someone like that.

    In the specific instance, it was my job to provide correct information. That the information was correct was self-evident. It was as full of meaning as if I were saying "The apple in your lunchbox is red." All it takes is pulling out the damn apple and verifying it. If the listener is too lazy to do that, there's not much I can do.

    Instead the effective dialog was:
    "No, it isn't. My Mom put in a yellow apple."
    "Dude, I looked in your lunchbox. It's red. Check it yourself."
    "But I know it's yellow. There's no way it could be red."
    And here's where the SJ approach comes in handy: "well, how do you know that" "I just do" "so you don't really know that?" "I mean, no, not really, but I'm sure of it" "OK, well let me know if it's red or yellow when you see it, because I saw a red apple."

    So to go back to your original example, instead of saying something like "the date time variable doesn't store time zone data" ad infinitum, you could say something like "are you sure of that? How do you know? Really? Well if you want to keep doing it that way, that's fine, but I bet if you adjust for it, it'll work out right. I've given you all the advice I can, so good luck to you. Would you still like me to remain on the line?"

    Note that you began this with a question. I answered your question, and now you're just disagreeing with my answer, based on your original premise.

    You asked,
    The problem with "just the facts" is that it's never just about the facts - they have to have meaning. Either you take him down the path you took, or you use credentials to assure him that you're not lying in some way.

    Why doesn't that seem "OK" to you?
    I replied that it's insulting to imply that I'm lying or otherwise being intentionally misleading. It's OK to say I'm wrong, but not OK to say I'm lying. To say I'm wrong is to correct me, to say I'm lying is to insult me.
    So, the logical extension to that is why that insults you. People are told that they're lying all the time, when something's true, but the other person doesn't want to hear it. That doesn't mean that they are a liar, which I would agree, being called that would be a grave insult.

    Note that YOU are saying that it should feel "OK" to me. This is precisely what Fi dislikes about Fe: it doesn't feel ok to me, and you don't get to say it should. Period. If you don't respect this alternative perspective, you will have some rough periods of communication.
    No, that's not what I'm saying to you at all. What I'm saying to you is that we all have to deal with being called unpleasant things, and having our character questioned. The flip side to this is that none of us have a particularly special character (though we do have particularly unique characters), so I don't understand why it would seem illogical to you for someone to doubt your intentions when they know very little about you. You know you're not a liar, but there are liars in this world, and they ruin it for everyone. In the end, this is why we even have credentials - because we simply don't have enough time to get to that level of trust with everyone.

    It's also why we regard betrayals by those with credentials, or those we do have close relationships with, as so much worse than that by someone who is unknown.

  6. #356
    thankful Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    How do they know your intentions? If they don't know you, how could they know your intentions?
    I am curious onemoretime - why would intentions come into play in such a factual discussion? What is the probability that uumlau was trying to fabricate the answer? Would that question come into your thoughts if it was you in this scenario? Would you think uumlau could be lying?

    This is positively false. If I am speaking to someone, I am trying to get information across. If the information does not get across, then I have failed, because I am the active member of the exchange. Like it or not, there is no way to "listen" better than simply paying attention.
    It is onerous to claim that the listener has no responsibility to pay attention during any act of communication. Although I would agree that the onus is on the speaker to ensure they are understood, the role of listener is best not a passive one.

    Consider the following: If I have verbally told my son to 1.) take out the garbage 2.) feed the dog and 3.) call me when you are home from work but only does the first, and claims to have not "heard" me regarding 2 & 3, is it I who have failed to communicate, or he who has failed to pay attention?

    In the end, it is the one speaking who carries the burden of communication, and is responsible for its success or failure. That being said, failing to communicate with someone like the person you mentioned before is nothing to be ashamed of. It would take some of the most skilled communicators on the planet to get through to someone like that.
    I hear what you are saying - that if someone sincerely is listening but fails to understand, the burden of being understood does remain with the speaker. But there is a distinction between this and claiming that "success or failure" hinges on the speaker alone ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #357
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to lose sight of where this discussion is relevant to the thread. It's not that I mind things wandering somewhat off topic, but it doesn't seem to be with the intent of understanding what causes conflict with INFJs or INFJs discussing what they find are issues.

    If the intent is letting INFJs know where they are going wrong, I am planning to start another thread to discuss that separately. It seems to me otherwise the scope of the thread becomes so wide that people may end up losing interest. It's not a matter of being closed to advice, but I'd prefer to do it in a separate thread.

  8. #358
    Dreaming the life Array onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm beginning to lose sight of where this discussion is relevant to the thread. It's not that I mind things wandering somewhat off topic, but it doesn't seem to be with the intent of understanding what causes conflict with INFJs or INFJs discussing what they find are issues.

    If the intent is letting INFJs know where they are going wrong, I am planning to start another thread to discuss that separately. It seems to me otherwise the scope of the thread becomes so wide that people may end up losing interest. It's not a matter of being closed to advice, but I'd prefer to do it in a separate thread.
    Good point, I felt kind of bad about talking so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am curious onemoretime - why would intentions come into play in such a factual discussion? What is the probability that uumlau was trying to fabricate the answer? Would that question come into your thoughts if it was you in this scenario? Would you think uumlau could be lying?
    Thing is, I don't know the guy. He could be completely forthright. Or he could secretly know/think that I'm a competitor, and he needs to throw me off the right track to get ahead. Or he could just be a prick who enjoys watching other people struggle in frustration. The key is, I just don't know. I could always assume the best of him, but that would be hopelessly naive of me. I could always assume the worst of him, but that would be paranoid of me. The thing is, it's just better to occupy the middle ground on these matters. The whole "trust, but verify" thing... though this time, I don't have any basis for trust in the first place.

    It is onerous to claim that the listener has no responsibility to pay attention during any act of communication. Although I would agree that the onus is on the speaker to ensure they are understood, the role of listener is best not a passive one.

    Consider the following: If I have verbally told my son to 1.) take out the garbage 2.) feed the dog and 3.) call me when you are home from work but only does the first, and claims to have not "heard" me regarding 2 & 3, is it I who have failed to communicate, or he who has failed to pay attention?
    I don't want to say that it's your failure, because then that would sound like I'm accusing you of bad parenting, which I'm not. However, if you know that your son tends to not respond to verbal commands, then how is it good communication to insist upon a communicating style that you know doesn't work?

    This scenario hits home for me, because I am that kid - I'm a strongly visual-spatial thinker, and no, I will not hear two out of those three requests, no matter how many times you say it. My brain just doesn't work that way. However, if you leave a note on the counter saying to do these things, or send an e-mail, I will remember without a problem. I'll remember pictures (I see words as shaped blocks more than phonemes) a lot more than I will spoken words.

    This is the biggest lesson I learned from my first year of law school - if I'm going to be an effective communicator, I have to swallow my pride and quit speaking to people in my terms. I may possibly get some of the information across, but the person receiving will not understand it in the way that I want them to unless I adapt my message to their thinking style... and if I can't do this, then it's not their fault. They didn't do anything.

    I hear what you are saying - that if someone sincerely is listening but fails to understand, the burden of being understood does remain with the speaker. But there is a distinction between this and claiming that "success or failure" hinges on the speaker alone ...
    When I say "success or failure", I mean that without any emotional context. If you fail to communicate, that's not a bad thing - it's just something that happens all too often. It's just another learning experience, and it's often a challenge that's far beyond anyone's capability. However, saying that the listener is responsible feels like blaming the victim to me.

  9. #359
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm beginning to lose sight of where this discussion is relevant to the thread. It's not that I mind things wandering somewhat off topic, but it doesn't seem to be with the intent of understanding what causes conflict with INFJs or INFJs discussing what they find are issues.

    If the intent is letting INFJs know where they are going wrong, I am planning to start another thread to discuss that separately. It seems to me otherwise the scope of the thread becomes so wide that people may end up losing interest. It's not a matter of being closed to advice, but I'd prefer to do it in a separate thread.
    The main relevance I was seeing was with respect to Te and Fe communication differences, and how "reputation" plays a role. But yeah, it's beginning to delve into Te vs Ti, tangentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    This is the biggest lesson I learned from my first year of law school - if I'm going to be an effective communicator, I have to swallow my pride and quit speaking to people in my terms. I may possibly get some of the information across, but the person receiving will not understand it in the way that I want them to unless I adapt my message to their thinking style... and if I can't do this, then it's not their fault. They didn't do anything.
    This is why it's not just about your presentation, but also your listening.

    When you're presenting, your onus is to present it as well as possible, adapting to all kinds of listeners as best as you can.

    When you're listening, your onus is to listen to all kinds of presenters as best as you can.

    Both sides have the same onus, and should not believe that the other side bears full responsibility for the communication.

    Check out "active listening."

    So when I run into Fe (to keep things on topic), I've learned ways of explaining things much more effectively. Similarly, I've learned ways of listening to Fe much more effectively.

  10. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m having an issue with the phrase ‘emotive control’, but I’m not sure why. I just know that- because my perception is so directed inward- it’s a big deal for me to get used to change in the external environment (because it isn’t where my perception is naturally directed). When someone’s behavior takes an INFJ off guard, it’s like moving the furniture around in a blind person’s apartment. Someone who is blind can navigate easily through their own apartment because they ‘know’ where everything is, even though they can’t see it. They just trust things will be in their place, so they can move freely about. That’s kind of like the trust I need to have in my own judgment, where the external environment (and because of Fe aux, the behavior of people in said environment) is concerned.



    I wish I understood this question, because it looks interesting.
    yeah, i am really on shaky ground with the term "emotive control" as I am trying to explain symmetries that INTJs may have to INFJs....when I really cant ever innately understand either. So it is totally okay to disgree on that point...I am kinda in bullshit zone....

    WRT to the ENTP question....

    ENTPs are the master of sarcasm and funny witty Ti jokes. I have seen several of my INFJ-ENTP pairs really have a great time with either Ti sarcastic quips at each other or playing Ti word games where they talk about funny Ti precision in interesting, albeit esoteric words-vocabulary. It ends up being a source of relaxation, a break from the daily routine for each. Perhaps a break from maintaining the Fe control each needs over their lives??? (I really have no idea.) It is sorta like each knows that there is a game being played all around them and they agree you have to play the game...but they are laughing about the game at the same time. It really is quite cute to be honest

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