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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #311
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I think what you are seeing, Starry Knights, is the difference between how we treat those close to us and how we treat those that are just pretty good friends. I have very few people in my life that I would actually try to point out what they are doing that isn't working for them or bring up and issue that is causing friction between us. They would either have to be one of 2-3 people in my most inner circle (and even then it would be with a lot of thought and trepidation) or someone that I couldn't work around in any other way so have to deal with the issue.

    With someone who is a decent friend (but not in my very inner circle), I would probably tell them what was wrong if asked, but if I didn't foresee a productive outcome to the conflict it would engender, I would just withdraw, see them less frequently or keep things more superficial.

    I don't think INFJs will back down a lot if they feel something is extremely important, they really don't like bringing up problems, partially because they know how deeply it impacts them when other people do. It's a painful experience. They only do it if they are absolutely certain how the other person will react and have either judged that the person will respond positively, or that the benefits outweigh the possible costs. They often don't realize that they are creating more trouble for people by not addressing issues openly and that it makes the other person feel shut out and like the INFJ thinks they know what's best for everyone.

    The INFJ also usually doesn't realize that others don't always feel criticism as personally as we do. I have noticed that ENFPs are much better at handling criticism objectively than we are, as long as they feel accepted by us. We tend to feel rejected no matter what and deeply ashamed and embarrassed (or if we don't respect the person we'll be bothered by it, but dismiss them).
    Last edited by fidelia; 07-26-2010 at 05:14 PM. Reason: stupid edit function! Was trying to fix paragraphs and typos

  2. #312
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I guess I should say, that middle ground of acquaintance ranging to good but not inner circle friend is where this happens most. If I do not care too much about the relationship, I may take risks that I wouldn't with someone that I care more about but whom I'm not inner circle close to. If it turns out well, I've made a friend that will be easier to deal with or that will be helped by my advice. If not, my life will go on just fine.

  3. #313
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's an interesting thought. It would help explain why some misunderstandings that happen here don't happen in the same way for me in real life. How would seeing someone's expression of discomfort redirect your strategy for dealing with us? Would you instinctively back off on Te?
    It's long been a theory of mine that F types, and especially NF types, tend to intuitively read things from online text that they would never read in real life (because real life provides more information). I believe that either NFP or NFJ, upon seeing another person being hurt in real life would immediately back off and reevaluate their approach. But in internet-text-land, this doesn't happen, because both NiFe and NeFi focus on the hurt that one feels oneself, because they "feel" no hurt on the part of the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    My definition for love:


    Seeing the beauty and marvel in another person. Loving them for who they are, all of it. Not rejecting any part of them, accepting them fully as a perfect system, knowing every wart is there for a reason, which in turn, makes them even more unique, and understanding that through and through. For that matter, taking the time to thoroughly understand them so you can reach this state of being with them and share it...sync up.
    There is a lot of wisdom in this. It is easy to forget that a lot of perceived "imperfections" are the source of the strengths and other qualities that one admires. For instance, ENFPs really admire the ability of INTJs to reason clearly and impartially, even when under a lot of emotional pressure:lack of emotionality that INTJs can have: they want to be able to do that, too, since it would make life, at times, so much easier. But that very lack of emotionality is a trade-off, because it means INTJs find it much more difficult to "open up" to others.

    Using typology, it makes it even easier to see: whatever type one is, there is a set of strengths and a set of weaknesses. There is no "uber" type that is obviously better than all the rest. (INTJ being a notable exception, of course!)


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That's funny - my definition of love would also include caring enough about someone to hold them accountable or to kindly open their eyes to blind spots and having them do the same for me. Inspiring each other to be better than either of us would be on our own. Iron sharpening iron and all that.

    So different.
    Very different, but just as valid. I think both Fi and Fe appreciate such improvement and corrections, but the manner and style of the corrections need to be very different. In fact, it is by judging the reaction to such corrections (of a given style) that one can determine whether Fi or Fe is in play.

    The main problem with the "Fe style" in terms of the Fi perspective is that the Fe style will phrase things in such a way that implies that the other is just not a "good person", that there is something intrinsically wrong with the other, and not merely a flaw to be corrected. Fi needs to hear things in terms of Te: there needs to be a logistical reason for the correction, not a peer-pressure reason. In particular, any kind of reasoning that demonstrates that an Fi user isn't living up to the Fi user's own standards, will be effective. Calling the Fi user a hypocrite, even though it means the same thing, will be ineffective.




    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    That's one of the main differences Ithink. Though I too am all for encouraging someone to develop themselves, I do not hold that expectation. I chose to love them for who they are, and to me, their flaws make them extra precious. Holding them accountable for those flaws would mean they'd change them out of guilt for me or leave me because I didn't accept them for who they are. That to me, is pretty much the biggest violation of my principles, of my Fi.
    Yeah, this is the funny thing about Fe vs. Fi. I've found it very odd that I can present reason after logical reason for an Fe person to change a course of action, to no avail, but if I make them feel guilty for not honoring a promise, for example, or make them feel like they're being "unfair," suddenly they deem my suggested course of action to have merit. I feel very "icky" whenever this happens. I feel like someone has agreed with me for "all the wrong reasons."

    This kind of thing can even happen when arguing about something as "objective" as physics. I can throw equation after equation, logic after logic, all proving my point, and still find no common ground. Then I quote Richard Feynman, for example, and suddenly I have agreement?!

  4. #314
    The Black Knight Array Domino's Avatar
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    Heck. I'll agree with you for a doughnut.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  5. #315
    Dreaming the life Array onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, this is the funny thing about Fe vs. Fi. I've found it very odd that I can present reason after logical reason for an Fe person to change a course of action, to no avail, but if I make them feel guilty for not honoring a promise, for example, or make them feel like they're being "unfair," suddenly they deem my suggested course of action to have merit. I feel very "icky" whenever this happens. I feel like someone has agreed with me for "all the wrong reasons."

    This kind of thing can even happen when arguing about something as "objective" as physics. I can throw equation after equation, logic after logic, all proving my point, and still find no common ground. Then I quote Richard Feynman, for example, and suddenly I have agreement?!
    What you're describing is the "who the hell are you?" effect. It's important to note, because a person rarely has as much legitimacy with others as he may think of himself.

  6. #316
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, for me, it's what qualifies you to say something (personal experience, credentials etc). While facts are great for supporting, unless I can see a human application and I think you've earned the right to say it, I don't listen as easily. Good to know about how it looks from the opposite perspective. There's been a lot so far in these three threads to help make clearer more effective and convincing communication with NFPs easier.

  7. #317
    Flirting 2.0 Array Amargith's Avatar
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    How does one avoid said effect?
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★

  8. #318
    Dreaming the life Array onemoretime's Avatar
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    Credentials.

  9. #319
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Which don't have to be in the form of degrees.

  10. #320
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Yeah, this is the funny thing about Fe vs. Fi. I've found it very odd that I can present reason after logical reason for an Fe person to change a course of action, to no avail, but if I make them feel guilty for not honoring a promise, for example, or make them feel like they're being "unfair," suddenly they deem my suggested course of action to have merit. I feel very "icky" whenever this happens. I feel like someone has agreed with me for "all the wrong reasons."

    This kind of thing can even happen when arguing about something as "objective" as physics. I can throw equation after equation, logic after logic, all proving my point, and still find no common ground. Then I quote Richard Feynman, for example, and suddenly I have agreement?!
    Yeah, I’m gonna guess this is just as much a Te vs. Ti issue, if not more so. It gets annoying when I’ve got someone spewing ‘facts’ at me that don’t particularly add up, at least not enough to change my course of action. I need for something to make sense- to sort of connect at both ends- before changing my course of action over it. And defending my position doesn’t happen easily because the functions I use to determine such things are introverted; so I usually just get obstinate.

    And yeah- it does work to appeal to my sense of what’s fair. But objective arguments work as well, they just have to be sound. The only reason- ever- spewing ‘facts’ doesn’t work with me is because it isn’t a convincing argument. It’s amazing to me sometimes how some people think I should be swayed by half-ass arguments. It's rarely worth putting the effort into figuring out how to articulate why an argument seems flawed. This is why it feels like Te types are perpetually trying to cram their own will down my throat.

    edit: That's so funny. INTP just started a thread saying kind of this same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Which don't have to be in the form of degrees.
    Agreed. I don’t care how many letters someone has behind their name: if what they’re saying doesn’t add up, then I won't go along with it.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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