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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #291
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    This thread is astonishing.

    In light of so many of these posts, I've found myself re-examining communication problem areas that I've had with my close ENFP, our different methods for listening both to each other and to mutual friends, ways that we've clashed in the past... I have so much to think about, and I want to thank everyone who participated in this thread for contributing. I'll definitely be saving and printing some of the most salient parts.
    I've had a similar experience. It's taking time to sort and filter through it all, but WOW!

    [And let me say, Affably Evil, that in a forum where everyone tries to have an interesting / witty user name, yours is one of the coolest ones I've seen in a longtime. Well done. ]
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  2. #292

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    A last comment on this thread and interaction within between enfps and infjs.

    ENFPs will very actively, instinctively mold ourselves to meet the needs of the other. However we do this by seeing microexpressions and watching body language and then adjusting in response.

    In a text based discussion we cannot do that, so we may replay more harshly here to an INFJ than we would in person as we cannot see discomfort and we are in logic mode using Te to pick the problem apart.

    I would suspect that Fe being able to adapt to "tones" in text or "unspoken words" in spoken words vs Fi adapting to subtle changes in body language, facial microexpression may be an interesting theme to explore and might contribute to forum misunderstandings.

  3. #293
    Dreaming the life Array onemoretime's Avatar
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    Here's an idea - how would everyone on this thread define "love"?

  4. #294
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Good question. I know how I feel, but will have to think it over to put it into a cohesive sentence that accurately reflects my thoughts.

  5. #295
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Part of the way I feel about what love is is written over in the ENFP thread right now. Self-sacrifice on both people's part has a lot to do with it for me, along with a steady, underlying current of grace for each other when one people makes mistakes and hurts the other person. Healthy love includes an element of self-care so that there are still reserves left to give the other person. You do not give until there is no margin left. Self-care also provides an indication of the respect that is expected and needed. Also included in love are appropriate boundaries of what is within the realm of possibility and which behaviours are firmly outside it and will not be tolerated without everything needing to change from the ground floor up.

  6. #296

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Part of the way I feel about what love is is written over in the ENFP thread right now. Self-sacrifice on both people's part has a lot to do with it for me, along with a steady, underlying current of grace for each other when one people makes mistakes and hurts the other person. Healthy love includes an element of self-care so that there are still reserves left to give the other person. You do not give until there is no margin left. Self-care also provides an indication of the respect that is expected and needed. Also included in love are appropriate boundaries of what is within the realm of possibility and which behaviours are firmly outside it and will not be tolerated without everything needing to change from the ground floor up.
    Awesome. Totally agree.

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I think that real love had to have the ability to both accept and provide nurture or provision and to be vulnerable. Without vulnerability there can be no intimacy.

  8. #298
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I want to get back to something posted earlier in this thread- I was taken out of commission for a few days. A *lot* of the stuff that’s being said in this thread (and probably actually more so in the sister thread “common ENFP issues”, but I’m posting here because this is more about INFJs) about Fe seems to be at least loosely based on the premise that Fe is about mindless conformity and necessarily less authentic than Fi. I’m not sure exactly where this notion comes from, but it’s kind of like saying Te ‘users’ necessarily have less authentic thoughts because they adhere to external paradigms more than the self-made critical reflection of Ti; which is obviously bullshit.

    Introverted function = depth
    Extraverted function = breadth

    Not

    Introverted function = authentic
    Extraverted function = fake

    Having more Fe than Fi doesn’t mean I cling to mindless ‘formal’ social rules of etiquette; in fact, I loathe mindless social rules of etiquette and question them at every turn. I just recognize where people need them to feel respected, and my priority happens to be on making other people feel respected (that's where the 'breadth' comes in). People do the best they can. There are some relatively good people who just never felt the need to question ‘formal’ rules: I adhere to the rules around them and get away from them the first chance I get, because it’s exhausting to me.

    Scott Denver brought up (in sister thread) the example of how- in some situations- the behaviors he deemed more trademark of Fi were actually more thoughtful to adhere to than typical societal rules of etiquette. My point here is that someone with more Fe than Fi is just as likely to pick that up (maybe even more so): because it’s about having one’s focus on the feelings of others in any particular environment. Sure, there are Fe ‘users’ who will judge such environments for not being ‘polite’: but they don’t do it because they are Fe ‘users’, they do it because they are close-minded individuals who don’t want to do the work of adapting.

    I am personally far, far more comfortable in environments where I don’t have to remember a bunch of 'formal' rules to make others feel respected- because it’s important to me to feel respectful. It absolutely wears me out when I have to be completely distracted by following some stupid pre-conceived guideline simply to feel respectful.

    Having Je aux means- because my perception is directed inward, and judgment is directed outward- I am less malleable ‘in the moment’ than other types whose perception is directed outward and judgment is directed inward. And, more specifically, having Fe aux means that I am less malleable ‘in the moment’ during my interaction with other people. Here’s an example which was brought up earlier in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I walk up the door of an IXTJ's office, drop all my guards and just let all that weird, messed up childish Fi glow at them. Fi does not remain within the confines of my body. It kinda touches people. (Insert CRAZEE) I let them know I love them, because I am an idiot and pretty much love everyone. The best I can figure, something about the facial expression, the openness, the sheer nuttiness of it, causes them to get happy, even if they are miserable.

    I have heard mirror neurons suggested as a potential explanation.

    They kinda look at me sideways and they smile. I actually will hug the INTJs and touch their faces. It is almost spontaneous. It isnt sexual at all, just love. After only knowing them for a few days they will tell me all of their frustrations or about how painful the last year has been for them or how dumb other people are. They innately trust me.
    You know that if you did that to an INFJ they would either be annoyed, or kill you, right? I don't mind occasional nuttiness if I'm part of it and the circumstances are right. Otherwise, it seems like attention seeking. (I don't mean this unkindly, but find it interesting at how very differently different types will respond to the same thing).

    I not trying to speak for fidelia, but for me “and the circumstances are right” = if I somewhat anticipate it.

    It isn’t that I don’t want someone coming up to me and doing this because I think it’s ‘improper’, or that I have some negative judgment about people ‘needing attention’: I don’t like someone behaving this way towards me because it’s an interruption. It’s a ‘surprise’ of sorts, it interrupts my thinking process and stifles my sense of freedom (which- for Pi types- is in the mind). I prefer things (and people) in the external world to match my expectations (which I formed myself- I didn’t absorb mindless social expectations) so that I can have as much freedom as possible to explore internal possibilities. That’s where my freedom is- just like an ENP type’s freedom is in being spontaneous and “crazy, wacky, etc” (in other words, exploring possibilities in the external world).

    And about my expectations: I do my best to scale them down to a bare minimum, to be as reasonable as possible. For example: I expect strangers to not punch me in the face unprovoked. My expectations are largely based on my past experience of others, what I consider ‘typical’ human behavior and that which- on my own reflection- seems ‘respectful’ (i.e. not punching strangers unprovoked). If a friend calls me up to ask a favor- they don’t have to go through some ridiculous protocol of asking how I’m doing first, but they do have to show consistency in their behavior towards me (being curmudgeonly when they don’t need anything- but being all syrupy nice when they do- just doesn’t fly with me). I generally don’t expect strangers to come up and lavish me with flirty attention simply because it isn’t something that happens in the regular course of any given day; it’s unexpected, therefore it’s an interruption.

    I don’t really understand why INTJs prefer that kind of interruption. The only thing I can think of is that (because they are more Fi than Fe) they don’t feel on-the-spot pressure to react in a way which assures the other person (the one who initiates the playfulness) will leave the incident feeling respected. That’s probably the biggest reason it might annoy an INFJ, but not an INTJ. The distraction for me would be, “damnit, now I’ve got to stop what I was doing and quickly come up with some reaction to assure this person that I acknowledge their attempt to involve me in playfulness is not- in itself- a loathsome thing to do.” INTJ types probably aren’t distracted by how their reaction makes the individual feel- so they can quickly dismiss it if they aren’t in the mood and get back to whatever they were thinking?

    But anyway- my point here is: I think people are mistaking the INFJ need for consistency in the external world with some mindless need for others to conform to shallow rules of etiquette.


    /rant

    edit: okay, since posting this, I've gone back to catch up on that sister thread and it looks like this has *somewhat* been addressed over there.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #299
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I would agree with nearly all of that. Because Z Buck and I are different e types and also I am social first, I don't react so much to the interruption, but sometimes I do to the unexpectedness or whether I feel playful right then. However, as Z Buck was saying, I think it bothers me more because I also have to assure the other person that they are not unwelcome, even though to do so means that I have to not show that I find them a little intrusive or unobservant.

    I don't think the that Fi depth and Fe breadth thing can be said enough though. I am one of the first to question why things are done the way they are. It's just that I will probably try to look at a wider range of people or ideas to deal with it, rather than plumb the depths of what's wrong with it at the cost of reaching a satisfactory compromise. If something doesn't make sense to me, I want to find out who it does make sense for and why so that I can weigh the costs/benefits of breaking that convention. Will my ultimate goal be served by doing so? If there's something I feel I need to stay true to, how can I do that while disturbing the least amount of people necessary to achieve my aim.

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    A last comment on this thread and interaction within between enfps and infjs.

    ENFPs will very actively, instinctively mold ourselves to meet the needs of the other. However we do this by seeing microexpressions and watching body language and then adjusting in response.

    In a text based discussion we cannot do that, so we may replay more harshly here to an INFJ than we would in person as we cannot see discomfort and we are in logic mode using Te to pick the problem apart.

    I would suspect that Fe being able to adapt to "tones" in text or "unspoken words" in spoken words vs Fi adapting to subtle changes in body language, facial microexpression may be an interesting theme to explore and might contribute to forum misunderstandings.

    That's an interesting thought. It would help explain why some misunderstandings that happen here don't happen in the same way for me in real life. How would seeing someone's expression of discomfort redirect your strategy for dealing with us? Would you instinctively back off on Te?

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