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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #221
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, umlauu, I believe that given a situation where we are both just discussing back and forth and a problem comes up, everyone has to budge a bit from their original position to make things work.

    However, in cases where the person has chosen to enter the discussion and their input has not been requested in that sense although they are welcome to observe and make some comment, it makes it difficult to invest the effort. Kind of like if you were having a good conversation at your restaurant table and some random passerby not only came to join the discussion (which could be okay) but then insisted on speaking in a different language without making any attempt to relate in their own and told everyone at the table that they must as well.

  2. #222
    thankful Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think it might be a Fe/Fi difference. My theory is that Fe needs the initial problem to be acknowledged and worked out before it can go on. Fi is more likely to take note that there was a problem, but prefer not to hash it out together.
    I wouldn't be able to agree with that hypothesis; as a type 9, I would work through this conflict until we found common ground and resolution. Nothing would deter me from getting there.

    Are we considering enneagram types here as a potential tripping point in this thread - EW, what's yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    Like I indicated - I have read the Wench's posts. I have read your responses (in more than one thread...some even started by ENFPs).

    I am only sharing my opinion here - but it does seem like you are accusing the Wench of 'doing'...what you are actually 'doing'.

    When I read her posts I see an individual that is making broad, generalized statements. Perhaps she doesn't present her ideas in a way that you or maybe anyone would find appealing...but being a forceful communicator does not automatically make the message a judgemental one.

    What I get from you, however, are very specific statements directed at her and her character. In your last response, you really let her have it...basically telling the Wench what you and apparently every other INFJ on the face of the planet (you may have even spoken on behalf of her INFJ friend as well - or at least that is how it came across in my mind) 'think of her'.
    Hey StarryKnights, we are all glad you are here. Don't let this conflict overwhelm you or make you think twice about participating. The great thing about this forum is that so many insights can be gained, both from positive and negative moments. And even amidst this conflict, there is still civility present, so do stick around and watch how this will gradually open up to common ground.

    EW feels like she is hitting her head against the wall, and SHE IS - because there IS a wall now between fidelia and EW. EW carries her posting history with her, and as a generalization, not many INFJ's are going to put much credence in what she has to say until she can build back some merit points on a personal level.

    I am not saying this is right or wrong; it just is.

    And I can feel, that earnestly, with all her heart, EW wants to do so, wants to make peace, but the wall is up now, and it will take TIME to break it down. Not forcefulness, but time.

    And I can feel that fidelia feels pressed against the wall and is asking for space. EW, I would recommend that course for now. AND, I know you want to mend this fence, today, right now, let's fix this! Let yourself take a breath and step away for a bit. Until your Te response is not so dominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    In Fidilia's defense, I find that EW's posting style almost universally and consistently rubs me the wrong way in an extreme way and has since she started posting here. It feels extremely condescending and overbearing -- like someone trying to fix you without actually trying to understand what the problem is and when you didn't ask to be fixed.
    Yes, I feel that too, and I am not an INFJ. EW, I think in one of our first interactions here I mentioned you should "tone it down" a little LOL! Not because I think there's anything inherently wrong with your beautiful, bold style - but because especially online, it does tend to lead to this type of situation, where we are, right now.

    Heaven knows my Te occasionally rises up to try to quickly and succinctly deal with conflict and get it solved and out of the way. It just has the online effect of being hit with a baseball bat.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Until we feel heard and understood, it's really hard to move onto the solution because we don't believe that she has any idea what the actual problem is. It's as if, because she has a hammer, everything looks like a nail to her.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #223
    thankful Array PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    In fact, I feel like re-writing one of your posts EW ... would that offend you? I don't want to do this unless you feel it would be a help.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #224
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, umlauu, I believe that given a situation where we are both just discussing back and forth and a problem comes up, everyone has to budge a bit from their original position to make things work.

    However, in cases where the person has chosen to enter the discussion and their input has not been requested in that sense although they are welcome to observe and make some comment, it makes it difficult to invest the effort. Kind of like if you were having a good conversation at your restaurant table and some random passerby not only came to join the discussion (which could be okay) but then insisted on speaking in a different language without making any attempt to relate in their own and told everyone at the table that they must as well.
    Except in THIS case, the discussion is about foreign languages, and in particular the foreign language this particular passerby speaks. Or is there another thread to which you would redirect the discussion?

    I sense there is more going on here than the topic that is ostensibly on the surface.

  5. #225
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    OK.. it just goes both ways.

    And I think that is all EW tries to express.

    It seems she gets called out for not knowing how to be heard.
    But I see little effort or adjustment in trying to understand her sometimes, so others end up not being heard by her either. (maybe there is history I don't know about)

    Communication goes both ways ..

    I also want to point how very similar in many ways you both are.

    A few things that seem to rub INFJs the wrong way, are behaviors that are very common in INFJs.. it's a bit confounding really.

    Someone said this and it's so true.. You are like the left and right hand of the same body.

    I also just want to hug everyone.. and wish we could all just find some common ground for respect. This is the most awesome thread I have ever participated in, on any site, on any subject.
    There is so much expression, genuine commuication and a honest desire to better understand people.
    It feels good to be human at times like this.. I feel more human anyway.

    to everyone

  6. #226
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Except in THIS case, the discussion is about foreign languages, and in particular the foreign language this particular passerby speaks. Or is there another thread to which you would redirect the discussion?

    I sense there is more going on here than the topic that is ostensibly on the surface.

    No, in my view, this is about which foreign language the INFJ speaks that others are wishing to understand. I haven't requested to know anything about their foreign languages and considering that there are 15 of them, I would prefer to do so in a different thread as we are already discussing articles, gender of nouns, direct objects and accusative cases. If we add in 15 other languages randomly here and there, it will be all muddied up and not be useful to anyone. Therefore, that is on my list, but I will probably make a thread for each foreign language I'm interested in knowing about, or at least group them together by similarities. The Romance languages, Germanic language etc. It's not a matter of disinterest in their language, but I'd prefer to start with what I know and branch out to what I don't know. EJCC already took one conversation to another thread because I was interested in hearing more about here ESTJ foreign language and it was mutually enlightening and helpful.

  7. #227
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    OK.. it just goes both ways.

    And I think that is all EW tries to express.

    It seems she gets called out for not knowing how to be heard.
    But I see little effort or adjustment in trying to understand her sometimes, so others end up not being heard by her either. (maybe there is history I don't know about)

    Communication goes both ways ..

    I also want to point how very similar in many ways you both are.

    A few things that seem to rub INFJs the wrong way, are behaviors that are very common in INFJs.. it's a bit confounding really.

    Someone said this and it's so true.. You are like the left and right hand of the same body.

    I also just want to hug everyone.. and wish we could all just find some common ground for respect. This is the most awesome thread I have ever participated in, on any site, on any subject.
    There is so much expression, genuine commuication and a honest desire to better understand people.
    It feels good to be human at times like this.. I feel more human anyway.

    to everyone
    I think we're already finding some common ground. I'm not sure why this is perceived as being disrespectful. As PeaceBaby said, something always comes of these kinds of exchanges and it has been completely civil. We have not started name calling, it's solution oriented and the problem, its causes and possible solutions have been discussed.

  8. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I could respect it if it was something that had been asked for. But she does it when it's not asked for and continues to push it even when it's been explained that that isn't what is wanted at this time. That makes it feel like she isn't listening, but is rather invalidating my experiences and feelings in an effort to push her own agenda at all costs. There is no give and take. No negotiation. So the reaction she gets is a mirror of how she is making me (and possibly other INFJs that react badly to her) feel.

    Until we feel heard and understood, it's really hard to move onto the solution because we don't believe that she has any idea what the actual problem is. It's as if, because she has a hammer, everything looks like a nail to her.
    You know cafe, I could have been wrong when I told esoteric it wasnt a Te-Ti conflict. The way you describe hammer-nail analogy may point more in that direction. You may be seeing precise Ti details about the situation that esoteric or I will miss. So we propose a sweeping generalized Te solution-which then seems offensive as it ignored the precise details or your particular FeTi problem???

    It may be the same way that a sweeping Fe value judgment feels oppresive as it ignores my specific Fi values which may have a lot of embedded resolution.

    In the same vein, My ENTP and I yesterday discussed how it was that I could EVER assume to "feel" exactly like another person. My answer was that it seems obvious that you could feel very similar, but it is irrelevent. I feel close enough to what they (the other Fi user) feels, that I can understand what a good Te suggestion will be. But you guys are more the entps-where there is something very individualized about what you feel and how you analyze it with Ti...thus to hear an overarching Te solution may feel extremely presumptious.

    It is really weird though as we are both using F functions-but analyzing with our respective T functions, then projecting our internal motives onto the other. It is confusion and miscommunication on three different layers. It is a very interesting problem for Ne to analyze.

    Perhaps the very best thing we can all do is recognize the lack of ill intent on all parts and be extremely cognizant that we are misunderstanding the other person by default..then very carefully probe the part we missed to try and identify where the breakdown occurred.

    (I do love this thread but I feel guilty as it has gone off topic-Fidelia perhaps you can use you super moderator powers to parse parts of it into a second thread? In any case I havent been so interested in a thread here in a very long while....if ENFPS are the ESTJs of Fi...kinda bossy but well meaning...INFJs would be the ISTPs of Fe...emotional mechanics? emotional artisians? kind prickly-precise but well meaning...i love making stuff up )

  9. #229
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, you've explained it well. That's what I was trying to say before. Without understanding the specifics, it seems extremely rude and presumptuous to come in and tell someone what the solution is. That's why the uncharacteristic reaction from a bunch of us. I've seen a bunch of occasions on here that seem to stem from Fe and Te being of necessity simplified at the expense of precision to maintain clarity, and Fi and Ti being a little ponderous, but much more specific and exact. The objections seem to arise from Fi and Ti users when the Fe or Te users attempt to sweep past the specifics that seem central to understanding what is actually going on because they don't see the need for as much detail. It's funny actually that we are each attached to our own particular introverted function while finding it difficult to see why the other person is just as attached to the precision of a function that is equally precise, but in a different domain.

    As far as on-off topic - I think this stuff is okay to leave in. As long as it still has some relevence to INFJ ways of processing, it makes sense to keep it, as these are the conflicts that are most likely to come up. If it spins too far away though, I'll do a split.

    It was interesting to me to think about Te being used here, because it was precisely that which I reacted to when my ESTJ and I had conflict. I felt that he didn't understand what the problem actually was and wasn't willing to take the time to before implementing whatever he decided was the solution and telling me what I should do. He felt that I was nitpicky about insignificant details and did not get on with solving the problem soon enough.

  10. #230
    Happy Dancer Array uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    No, in my view, this is about which foreign language the INFJ speaks that others are wishing to understand. I haven't requested to know anything about their foreign languages and considering that there are 15 of them, I would prefer to do so in a different thread as we are already discussing articles, gender of nouns, direct objects and accusative cases. If we add in 15 other languages randomly here and there, it will be all muddied up and not be useful to anyone. Therefore, that is on my list, but I will probably make a thread for each foreign language I'm interested in knowing about, or at least group them together by similarities. The Romance languages, Germanic language etc. It's not a matter of disinterest in their language, but I'd prefer to start with what I know and branch out to what I don't know. EJCC already took one conversation to another thread because I was interested in hearing more about here ESTJ foreign language and it was mutually enlightening and helpful.
    Then if this thread is for explaining INFJ's "language" to others, then it is inappropriate to express frustration when others don't immediately understand. Yes, teachers always complain about their students, and can have some pretty funny stories about them, too, BUT they don't express those opinions TO the students WHILE teaching. (It is of course OK to rebuke abusive or unproductive discourse, but that should never be done out of the feeling of frustration.)

    In fact, teachers end up learning more than their erstwhile students, precisely because they need to understand where the student is coming from in order to best present the material in a way the student can understand. When I was teaching physics, I eventually learned to teach two versions, one for my "S" students and one for my "N" students. For my "N" students, I'd use analogies and explain how things work together. For my "S" students, I'd show an example problem and the steps how to solve it. If I left out the former, my "N" students would do badly, because they wouldn't understand how everything related to each other. If I left out the latter, my "S" students would do badly, because wouldn't know what details needed to be handled.

    So even when the final goal is to get others to hear and understand you, the first step is to hear and understand them.

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