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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #161
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree that would be the way to go. It is important to assess whether both people have what it takes right then to provide the building blocks for a successful and healthy relationship. I wish that people had in mind before what that requires and what it is/is not when they see it. Someone who is a great person may not be prepared at that time in their life to be the kind of partner they are needed to be.

    I expect the bitterness comes in when the INFJ has given up a lot to make it work and figures that maybe they've burned some bridges or if they feel that the other person wasn't up front from the start about those problems. Maturity level and security also plays into it.

    I don't think I'm generally very angry and vindictive, so you're right that it seems foreign. I met an INFP once with qualities that were wonderful and whom I had grown to care deeply for, but he was wading through all kinds of unresolved stuff (finances, addiction, previous relationships having failed, child whom he couldn't see, choice of friends, business failing) and we ended up going our separate ways before it really came to anything. It was fortunate I was leaving town when I was, or I think it would have been hard to resist the temptation to want to help save him, or to enter a relationship that did not have the potential for success.
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  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that would be the way to go. I expect the bitterness comes in when the other person has given up a lot to make it work and figures that maybe they've burned some bridges or if they feel that the other person wasn't up front from the start about those problems. Maturity level and security also plays into it.

    I don't think I'm generally very angry and vindictive, so you're right that it seems foreign. I met an INFP once with qualities that were wonderful and whom I had grown to care deeply for, but he was wading through all kinds of unresolved stuff (finances, addiction, previous relationships having failed, child whom he couldn't see, choice of friends, business failing) and we ended up going our separate ways before it really came to anything.
    LOL
    In the beginning I wasn't upfront and honest at all... and That really is the core of everything. I know that now.

    But that is not what I find funny.. what I find funny is your INFP sounds like my INFJ..

    You know for one brief moment my INFJ did say it was all bad timing and nothing else. Remembering that, I can take some small comfort that on some level she knows what is going on.
    Nobody is hopeless.

  3. #163
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Sorry, I edited again. (I have a bad habit of posting and then editing after).

    Yeah, there are redeeming features in everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Sorry, I edited again. (I have a bad habit of posting and then editing after).

    Yeah, there are redeeming features in everyone.
    Thats OK.. I just take 12 hours to make a post.. it amounts to the same thing.. we are always thinking and uncovering new angles and never quite satisfied that we have expressed ourselves and articulated things just right.

  5. #165
    Professional Trickster Array Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I wonder if (at least part of) Esoteric’s understanding of “sacred cow” is actually just our need for consistency. If someone is behaving like X on Friday, then behaving like Y on Saturday, then on Saturday: we are more likely to say the person is X, whereas ExxPs will say the person is Y. And when the person behaves like W on Sunday: we’re likely to still be fusing X and Y together, where the ExxP will simply see W. Of course it’s going to look to them like we don’t listen well, or that we’re too slow with the uptake of information- we need more than simply the present moment of something being true to believe it. To believe something is ‘true’: we need it to be true today, yesterday, and every day before that, and incorporating past information is actually the ExxP blind spot (as much as incorporating new information can be our blind spot).

    I had the same problem with the ENP I dated for several years. He’d tell me I wasn’t listening, and I’d point out to him that- whatever it was he wanted me to believe- it would need to be true for more than one afternoon in order for me to believe it. I can see how that would seem to him like I thought he was doing “something unacceptable in terms of <insert INFJ sacred cow here>”. I think it’s a drag for them to be tied down to past information, they want the freedom of brand new things being true.
    I haven't been responding more to this thread because this stuff evokes such strong emotions from me that I find myself quickly getting overwhelmed. My solution has been to read a page of posts, then go off and process privately before coming back to this thread to respond. Let me begin by commenting on Z Buck McFate's post above. I literally choked up with emotion upon reading this post. Not because I was angry or sad, but because I was so overwhelmed by the Truth (that’s with a capital T) of it.

    INFJs and ENFPs are Fantastic Foils

    <Sigh.> INFJs and ENFPs are so alike and yet so different. And it is this strange juxtaposition of likeness and differences that attracts these personalities to each other and that causes friction between them.

    This isn't surprising when you look at how our respective function hierarchies mirror each other.

    ENFP — Ne > Fi > Te > Si
    INFJ — Ni > Fe > Ti > Se

    Both INFJs and ENFPs genuinely care about people. Both like to look at things from the 35,000 foot perspective. But there are differences, too.

    When I used the term “sacred cow” in my original post (Click here to see the post that started the sh*t storm), it was not my intention to be flip or glib. (Although, I’m not above engaging in such hi-jinks to reduce tension when discussing an emotionally volatile subject.) I was merely trying to communicate a complex concept succinctly and accurately. And, I think it does this very well.

    Sacred Cows are things too highly regarded to be open to criticism or curtailment. And from my ENFP side of the table, this phrase very accurately describes what I’ve seen going on with several INFJs in my acquaintance. Sometimes they are overly reluctant to re-examine their opinions or beliefs… to the point of obtuseness and sometimes even self-destructiveness.

    Let me inoculate myself against accusations of ENFP hegemony, by saying that I am noting a blind spot in the ways INFJs see that world that can manifest itself in ways little and great, healthy and unhealthy.

    INFJs are idiots. But that's OK. ENFPs are idiots, too.

    But INFJs certainly have no monopoly on such foibles. Z Buck McFate was dead-on accurate when she spoke of how not incorporating past information into one's understanding in the present is an ENFP blind spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    “[INFJs] need more than simply the present moment of something being true to believe it. To believe something is ‘true’: we need it to be true today, yesterday, and every day before that, and incorporating past information is actually the ExxP blind spot (as much as incorporating new information can be our blind spot).]” - Z Buck McFate
    Ohhhhh Fidelia, Z Buck McFate, and any other INFJs I’ve pissed off on this forum…. Oh, if you only knew how this "blind spot" is simultaneously my greatest strength and my biggest weakness. And, perhaps it is why I’m sometimes in awe of my INFJ friends. They carry in them such a sense of continuity….. yes, that’s the word that perfectly describes it. Continuity.

    Esoteric Wench's Struggle with Her Own Flagrant Idiocy

    ENFPs sacrifice continuity in the name of new information acquisition. Ergo, INFJs sacrifice acquiring new information in the name of continuity. This is the major friction point between two personalities that otherwise have soooooo much in common.

    One of the reasons I have talked so much about INFJs on this forum, is that I have come to believe that studying the strengths and weaknesses of one’s cognitive mirror can be a powerful technique in achieving self-enlightenment. Sometimes I can’t see my own blind spots. But I can see INFJs make the same mistakes I do, except in the opposite direction. This brings my own challenges into focus in a way that undercuts all the white noise that comes from knowing too much about my own life.

    Z Buck McFate is very correct that I feel very little need to seek out consistency in what I do, how I think, or who I hang around which sometimes works for me and sometimes against me. Either way, this salient part of my personality is at the very essence of my uniquely ENFP gifts and flaws…. Just like seeking out consistency is part of the essence of what it is to be an INFJ.

    So I’ve come to believe that the thing to strive for is BALANCE. I think of the words carved into the Temple of Apollo at the Oracle at Delphi: γνῶθι σεαυτόν (gnothi seauton = "know thyself") and μηδὲν ἄγαν (meden agan = "nothing in excess"). Truth and self-actualization lie in the middle path, without excess.

    Nowhere are these truths more applicable than finding balance in our inherent tendency to choose one cognitive process over another. Our preferred cognitive preferences box us into a way of seeing the world that we are often unaware. Balance comes from strengthening our weaker preferences and limiting the excesses of our dominant preferences. In terms of Jungian Typology theory, the "middle path" comes from using the most appropriate cognitive process based on the needs of the situation, not just with what we are more comfortable.
    ENFP with kick*ss Te | 7w8 so | ♀

  6. #166
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree that INFJs tend to err on the side of continuity while ENFPs err on the side of constant change. If there's one thing that this forum illustrates, I believe it is that each type has tendancies that fall on one side or the other of the fence and that ideally, we shore up our weakness and capitalize on our strengths. As you said, BALANCE.

    There's still something about this post though that bugs me. Underlying everything, it bothers me that I am left with the feeling that you believe you have things cased and therefore will give us advice. I still don't feel that you for sure understand everything you are seeing, which makes it seem presumptuous to give advice. I rarely would express these thoughts aloud, as it seems rude to me to do so. However, if we're talking about some of the sources of conflict that stem from our differing views of the world, I think maybe this is relevant. I don't think the issue is even so much the content, but again the medium for the message - things like the bolded points etc. I don't want to feel this way, but it is that kind of stuff that makes me want to dig in my heels and do the opposite, even when you have some good points to make.

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    Guys, this is one seriously long post. But this last page is so interesting I might actually read the rest.

    I'm dating an INFJ and finding descriptions of our dynamic has been fascinating. Does anyone know where I can find some more?

  8. #168
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    There's a website that matches up each type and the potential concerns it may have. Can't remember the name of it but found it by googling XXXXs and XXXXs (You put in whichever letters you like best).

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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Probably might be helpful to read the first page too, and see if any of it rings a bell for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that INFJs tend to err on the side of continuity while ENFPs err on the side of constant change. If there's one thing that this forum illustrates, I believe it is that each type has tendancies that fall on one side or the other of the fence and that ideally, we shore up our weakness and capitalize on our strengths. As you said, BALANCE.

    There's still something about this post though that bugs me. Underlying everything, it bothers me that I am left with the feeling that you believe you have things cased and therefore will give us advice. I still don't feel that you for sure understand everything you are seeing, which makes it seem presumptuous to give advice. I rarely would express these thoughts aloud, as it seems rude to me to do so. However, if we're talking about some of the sources of conflict that stem from our differing views of the world, I think maybe this is relevant. I don't think the issue is even so much the content, but again the medium for the message - things like the bolded points etc. I don't want to feel this way, but it is that kind of stuff that makes me want to dig in my heels and do the opposite, even when you have some good points to make.
    Fid.. Can I ask something?

    I feel somewhat similar to ES in ways and I see your points as well.

    We have concluded that if you want to be heard, then the delivery is everything, right.?
    Since it's a common cliche "It's not what you say but how you say it" I think we can conclude that this phenomena is not at all unique to any particular type, but a common thing for a lot of people.

    It's something that comes naturally to me.. I am a communicator.. I will rarely toot my own horn on anything.. But I know this one strength, even if it is not perfect itself.
    I rarely have complete communication breakdowns.
    This is because I am quick to learn a person's communication style.
    I am also very adaptable and will find a way to communicate even with the most difficult people.

    I have hit walls with ENFPs on just about every level.
    and I have hit walls with INFJs and perhaps even ESFJs on the medium issue.
    It's not for lack of trying.. and I wonder if perhaps it has something to with what Zanzi said about consistency and things being true today like they were yesterday etc etc.. maybe you don't hear the new medium because you still remember the old medium? anyway that is neither here nor there right now..

    What I want to ask is.. If you would share some insight into how I can better deliver a critical message without hurting the recipient.
    INFJ style..
    I thinks it's something a lot of people might find useful, not just me.

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