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Thread: Common INFJ issues

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    Lay the coin on my tongue Array SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post



    I feel simultaneously relieved and disappointed.
    Me too!
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    This is beautiful, Arclight.

    And, ouch, it hurts -- because it is true. I can relate a lot, because I'm in a relationship with an INFP, and one thing that melts down my last defenses every time is the knowledge deep in my heart that in the end, no matter what I do or how messed up I am or will be inside, he will never, never, ever see me as anything less than a perfect human being. I know that in his eyes, I am what I am, whole and complete just as I am, without even the tiniest space left of what I could be to be filled. At times, having his love feels like a forgiveness of my imperfect little existence.

    Why this post hurts so much is because I also know that I cannot love like that.

    I don't want to derail this thread into another Fe/Fi discussion, but I think the root of the problem lies in the difference between the two feeling functions. I can completely understand why you are hurt.

    Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

    If bright blue means happiness, Fe will seek to create bright blue whenever it comes into contact with another beam. In a relationship, we always keep an eye on your beam, and another on the mixed color on the wall. When you shift from blue to green to red, we carefully shift our color to balance you out and try to maintain the bright blue of happiness on the wall, and try to nudge you back to bright blue and so we can as well. It's a delicate dance. We are aware of you at all times. Everything we do, every second, every move, we do while keeping an eye on your color. At all times, we try to notice subtle changes and try to adapt, so that our mixed color on the wall will be as close to blue as possible. In a way, we cease to be our own beam of light. We become part of us. It's like a dance. When our beam dims from depression, we hope you would help brighten up to balance us out, because we would do the same without even thinking.

    Fi seems to see this phenomenon very differently. You are your own beam of light that never changes with contact with other beams. You look at the final color on the wall, but just to observe, without the preconception that it should be bright blue. In the same way, you look at our color and you see it as it is, not as a possible component to which you add your own color to make blue. The changes in your color could be influenced by our color, but never as a direct reaction.

    Here is where a lot of problems arise. Fe gets hurt when it realizes there has never been the 'us' beam, that all the 'us' has been one-sided. It has no idea that for Fi there doesn't have to be the 'us' beam, but two separate beams, side by side. Fe can take this as a rejection -- a refusal to merge, to become one. That hurts.

    Being a J, an INFJ knows what color he or she wants on the wall. Who doesn't want to be happy? To have a good life, to be healthy, to be safe? In reality the bright blue of perfection is a lot more complex than just 'happiness', because everyone defines happiness differently.

    Healthy Fe learns to accept that the spot on the wall doesn't have to be a certain color all the time and that the other person might not even want that certain color. Healthy Fi learns to accept that there are certain colors that work better for both parties and it is in their power to tune their own beam a little to achieve it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think most of the time, INFJs don't judge like a court judges a criminal. For Fi, I know it must seem like it, considering how unjudging Fi is in nature. It's more like we don't understand why you refuse to do the merge. We never said it had to be the way we want. Just tell us what color you like on the wall and we will try to accommodate. We can discuss it and work it out together. However, keep in mind that this 'us' isn't the only spot we shine on. All other relationships require tuning on our part. If what you want is so different that what the rest needs, we are stuck in the middle, and we strain ourselves so hard to keep all the lights blue. No, we cannot stop doing it. For us, not tuning means we don't care.

    What does judging mean? It doesn't mean that you have to live up to a certain standard that we set for you. It's just that we keep an eye on the spot of light on the wall where our beams meet, and that we are painfully aware of how everything affects everything else. If your light turns red and makes the mixed light something other than blue, we are aware that it's doing so, and we need to understand why it is red and how we can help. Do we judge you for it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the thing is, we need to understand why, because we cannot keep our eyes off the color on the wall, the same way you cannot keep your eyes off your own beam and our beam. What guides you is internal. What guides us is the color on the wall. We are far more affected by our mixed effect and without good communication, we are completely lost.

    When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

    I have no idea if this is relevant or if other INFJs can relate at all. Sorry for the longwindedness. I got a bit emotional reading Arclight's post and I felt like I had to get something out.
    What a completely awesome post.

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  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    That would be just fine. I have had charming ENFP friends that do just that. The only problem is when they don't make clear whether they actually want to be close friends or whether it's just a passing phase. People could say the same though about INFJ sympathy, probing questions and receptivity.
    oooo, I once had an INFJ do the probing question thing. I had just met her and she started asking me about my ex husband, my children, and a lot over very intimate emotional things...at a business conference. I found it difficult not to answer, as I am a very sharing person normally, but these arent typical questions people ask after just meeting you. It was very, very strange. Oddly-my ENTP friend was melting in a puddle of drool during this display and kept saying how amazing she was. Given I had known her three minutes and she was the legal counsel of a business partner, it felt as though she was gathering data to file away, but I was never certain.

    Fidelia I forgot once I did have a run in with an INFJ long, long ago. I was about 21 and she and I were close friends. At that age I seemed to be compelled to debate and argue everything, so I would pick a lot at her religious values as she was a very conservative fundamentalist christian. I wanted to have a back or forth discussion/defense of the topic. In retrospect it was horrifically rude of me, but she was very kind and seemed to tolerate me well. It took a bit of maturity on my part to recognize how poorly this reflected on me-perhaps Fi growing in a bit.

    Since then all of my INFJs have had very different religious and political leanings than me, but it is very obvious it isnt a topic to debate. I suppose I treat those aspects as Fi values-thus I never question them, assuming they are not open for discussion. Instinctually-kinda like hugging them-I recognize it is off limits unless invited..

  4. #154
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    After three minutes, that seems weird, but I think we do it because we wouldn't mention anything that we weren't open (or wishing) to being prodded to talk about and so assume the same for others. I feel like I'm just actually making the other person feel good by asking them more if they brought up the subject. A lot of INFPs especially seem relieved to do so, although I would have thought that they'd be private enough it might seem invasive.

    LOL at the debating INFJs. Yeah, that doesn't go over well, even if they have good reasons for their convinctions and are open to talking about them. They just do better starting from common ground and gradually branching off, then the opposite direction.

  5. #155
    Senior Member Array Quiet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    This is beautiful, Arclight.

    And, ouch, it hurts -- because it is true. I can relate a lot, because I'm in a relationship with an INFP, and one thing that melts down my last defenses every time is the knowledge deep in my heart that in the end, no matter what I do or how messed up I am or will be inside, he will never, never, ever see me as anything less than a perfect human being. I know that in his eyes, I am what I am, whole and complete just as I am, without even the tiniest space left of what I could be to be filled. At times, having his love feels like a forgiveness of my imperfect little existence.

    Why this post hurts so much is because I also know that I cannot love like that.

    I don't want to derail this thread into another Fe/Fi discussion, but I think the root of the problem lies in the difference between the two feeling functions. I can completely understand why you are hurt.

    Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

    If bright blue means happiness, Fe will seek to create bright blue whenever it comes into contact with another beam. In a relationship, we always keep an eye on your beam, and another on the mixed color on the wall. When you shift from blue to green to red, we carefully shift our color to balance you out and try to maintain the bright blue of happiness on the wall, and try to nudge you back to bright blue and so we can as well. It's a delicate dance. We are aware of you at all times. Everything we do, every second, every move, we do while keeping an eye on your color. At all times, we try to notice subtle changes and try to adapt, so that our mixed color on the wall will be as close to blue as possible. In a way, we cease to be our own beam of light. We become part of us. It's like a dance. When our beam dims from depression, we hope you would help brighten up to balance us out, because we would do the same without even thinking.

    Fi seems to see this phenomenon very differently. You are your own beam of light that never changes with contact with other beams. You look at the final color on the wall, but just to observe, without the preconception that it should be bright blue. In the same way, you look at our color and you see it as it is, not as a possible component to which you add your own color to make blue. The changes in your color could be influenced by our color, but never as a direct reaction.

    Here is where a lot of problems arise. Fe gets hurt when it realizes there has never been the 'us' beam, that all the 'us' has been one-sided. It has no idea that for Fi there doesn't have to be the 'us' beam, but two separate beams, side by side. Fe can take this as a rejection -- a refusal to merge, to become one. That hurts.

    Being a J, an INFJ knows what color he or she wants on the wall. Who doesn't want to be happy? To have a good life, to be healthy, to be safe? In reality the bright blue of perfection is a lot more complex than just 'happiness', because everyone defines happiness differently.

    Healthy Fe learns to accept that the spot on the wall doesn't have to be a certain color all the time and that the other person might not even want that certain color. Healthy Fi learns to accept that there are certain colors that work better for both parties and it is in their power to tune their own beam a little to achieve it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think most of the time, INFJs don't judge like a court judges a criminal. For Fi, I know it must seem like it, considering how unjudging Fi is in nature. It's more like we don't understand why you refuse to do the merge. We never said it had to be the way we want. Just tell us what color you like on the wall and we will try to accommodate. We can discuss it and work it out together. However, keep in mind that this 'us' isn't the only spot we shine on. All other relationships require tuning on our part. If what you want is so different that what the rest needs, we are stuck in the middle, and we strain ourselves so hard to keep all the lights blue. No, we cannot stop doing it. For us, not tuning means we don't care.

    What does judging mean? It doesn't mean that you have to live up to a certain standard that we set for you. It's just that we keep an eye on the spot of light on the wall where our beams meet, and that we are painfully aware of how everything affects everything else. If your light turns red and makes the mixed light something other than blue, we are aware that it's doing so, and we need to understand why it is red and how we can help. Do we judge you for it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the thing is, we need to understand why, because we cannot keep our eyes off the color on the wall, the same way you cannot keep your eyes off your own beam and our beam. What guides you is internal. What guides us is the color on the wall. We are far more affected by our mixed effect and without good communication, we are completely lost.

    When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

    I have no idea if this is relevant or if other INFJs can relate at all. Sorry for the longwindedness. I got a bit emotional reading Arclight's post and I felt like I had to get something out.

    I was so moved when I read this. It spoke to me and validated so well, just exactly how I operate. Thanks for posting this. It got me kind of emotional too, because it was as though someone else honestly understood me in the true sense that I am.
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  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    I was so moved when I read this. It spoke to me and validated so well, just exactly how I operate. Thanks for posting this. It got me kind of emotional too, because it was as though someone else honestly understood me in the true sense that I am.
    I thought it was lovely, and it describes me very well. It made me a little emotional, too. I don't know if I have ever tried to describe that aspect of myself to anyone, or if I even knew how I could try to. Reading it made sense to me, and it feels nice to have that explained in that way.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    This is beautiful, Arclight.

    And, ouch, it hurts -- because it is true. I can relate a lot, because I'm in a relationship with an INFP, and one thing that melts down my last defenses every time is the knowledge deep in my heart that in the end, no matter what I do or how messed up I am or will be inside, he will never, never, ever see me as anything less than a perfect human being. I know that in his eyes, I am what I am, whole and complete just as I am, without even the tiniest space left of what I could be to be filled. At times, having his love feels like a forgiveness of my imperfect little existence.

    Why this post hurts so much is because I also know that I cannot love like that.

    I don't want to derail this thread into another Fe/Fi discussion, but I think the root of the problem lies in the difference between the two feeling functions. I can completely understand why you are hurt.

    Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

    If bright blue means happiness, Fe will seek to create bright blue whenever it comes into contact with another beam. In a relationship, we always keep an eye on your beam, and another on the mixed color on the wall. When you shift from blue to green to red, we carefully shift our color to balance you out and try to maintain the bright blue of happiness on the wall, and try to nudge you back to bright blue and so we can as well. It's a delicate dance. We are aware of you at all times. Everything we do, every second, every move, we do while keeping an eye on your color. At all times, we try to notice subtle changes and try to adapt, so that our mixed color on the wall will be as close to blue as possible. In a way, we cease to be our own beam of light. We become part of us. It's like a dance. When our beam dims from depression, we hope you would help brighten up to balance us out, because we would do the same without even thinking.

    Fi seems to see this phenomenon very differently. You are your own beam of light that never changes with contact with other beams. You look at the final color on the wall, but just to observe, without the preconception that it should be bright blue. In the same way, you look at our color and you see it as it is, not as a possible component to which you add your own color to make blue. The changes in your color could be influenced by our color, but never as a direct reaction.

    Here is where a lot of problems arise. Fe gets hurt when it realizes there has never been the 'us' beam, that all the 'us' has been one-sided. It has no idea that for Fi there doesn't have to be the 'us' beam, but two separate beams, side by side. Fe can take this as a rejection -- a refusal to merge, to become one. That hurts.

    Being a J, an INFJ knows what color he or she wants on the wall. Who doesn't want to be happy? To have a good life, to be healthy, to be safe? In reality the bright blue of perfection is a lot more complex than just 'happiness', because everyone defines happiness differently.

    Healthy Fe learns to accept that the spot on the wall doesn't have to be a certain color all the time and that the other person might not even want that certain color. Healthy Fi learns to accept that there are certain colors that work better for both parties and it is in their power to tune their own beam a little to achieve it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think most of the time, INFJs don't judge like a court judges a criminal. For Fi, I know it must seem like it, considering how unjudging Fi is in nature. It's more like we don't understand why you refuse to do the merge. We never said it had to be the way we want. Just tell us what color you like on the wall and we will try to accommodate. We can discuss it and work it out together. However, keep in mind that this 'us' isn't the only spot we shine on. All other relationships require tuning on our part. If what you want is so different that what the rest needs, we are stuck in the middle, and we strain ourselves so hard to keep all the lights blue. No, we cannot stop doing it. For us, not tuning means we don't care.

    What does judging mean? It doesn't mean that you have to live up to a certain standard that we set for you. It's just that we keep an eye on the spot of light on the wall where our beams meet, and that we are painfully aware of how everything affects everything else. If your light turns red and makes the mixed light something other than blue, we are aware that it's doing so, and we need to understand why it is red and how we can help. Do we judge you for it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the thing is, we need to understand why, because we cannot keep our eyes off the color on the wall, the same way you cannot keep your eyes off your own beam and our beam. What guides you is internal. What guides us is the color on the wall. We are far more affected by our mixed effect and without good communication, we are completely lost.

    When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

    I have no idea if this is relevant or if other INFJs can relate at all. Sorry for the longwindedness. I got a bit emotional reading Arclight's post and I felt like I had to get something out.
    I have fallen behind on this thread like a few people.. 21%, the amount of oxygen in our atmosphere.
    It seems my post and your response have had an effect on people.
    I am glad our struggles and connections can inspire,teach and move others.

    I find your post fascinating as well as touching.
    This whole thread has me in knots.

    I am stuck in the middle. I do see me and my partners as two separate entities, but also as one.
    You simply cannot love me or be loved by me if there isn't some sort of merge.
    But can connection be 100% "on" all the time? As INFJs you must understand the need for individuality, time out and inner workings and landscapes that are yours and yours alone?
    If it is important to "us", then you are a part of it already. You are not kept out of the loop for any reason other than you should not be burdened by our demons.
    If the INFJ tries to get those demons to the surface, as mine did. literally, all hell breaks loose.
    I guess my INFJ tried to force the issue. I myself was unaware how not a good idea that was.
    You can't save us. You can't change us. Ok well part of that is wrong. You have already saved us by loving us and by loving us you have already changed us.
    But to encourage us to battle our demons when we are not ready to battle them will have detrimental effects.
    You plant a seed and a flower grows. If once it starts sprouting, you pull on it trying to make it bloom faster, you simply pull a premature bud from it's grounding and it dies.

    So I guess what I am saying is. You see a blue light.. and that to you is what you want us to be. But the merge will create it's own unique color that is ONLY ours. While you strive to keep everything in the Blue , we are left wondering why you are not seeing how remarkably beautiful this unique color is and why its forsaken for something more common.
    You want me to be happy, I want US to be happy. our happiness is US, and its beam is independent from all other beams, and to try and make it a color it's not, is how you break the connection you so desperately want.

    It seems to me it's 2 people who very much want the same thing.. but come at it from different directions. where one pulls the other pushes and likewise.

    This is where I get lost.

  8. #158
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I have observed the transforming power of love for INFPs, as well as the fact that you can't force them to deal with issues before they are ready to. They seem to need to cocoon and then tear everything down to ground level and rebuild. Because they don't express a lot of what is going on internally, it is hard for the INFJ to watch them remain stuck and they are compelled to offer suggestions or even try to use force to mobilize them (not realizing how much thought the INFP has already put into the solution). This doesn't work well for either party. INFPs feels condemned, misunderstood, only loved if they do what the INFJ expects. The INFJ feels pushed away, mistrusted, and far apart from the intimacy they crave.

    Unfortunately, in the meantime, life is going on. Whether the INFP needs time to rebuild or not, decisions are being made (even by the lack of decisions being made), children are growing up, someone needs to earn a living, people have to decide where the relationship is going and so on. Of course every couple blends to make their own unique shade, but when all the INFJ can see is a murky collection of colours with no beautiful shade emerging and no idea of when it may emerge, it's common for the INFJ to question the future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have observed the transforming power of love for INFPs, as well as the fact that you can't force them to deal with issues before they are ready to. They seem to need to cocoon and then tear everything down to ground level and rebuild. Because they don't express a lot of what is going on internally, it is hard for the INFJ to watch them remain stuck and they are compelled to offer suggestions or even try to use force to mobilize them (not realizing how much thought the INFP has already put into the solution). This doesn't work well for either party. INFPs feels condemned, misunderstood, only loved if they do what the INFJ expects. The INFJ feels pushed away, mistrusted, and far apart from the intimacy they crave. Unfortunately, in the meantime, life is going on. Whether the INFP needs time to rebuild or not, decisions are being made (even by the lack of decisions being made), children are growing up, people have to decide where the relationship is going and so on. Of course everyone blends to make their own unique shade, but when all the INFJ can see is a murky collection of colours with no beautiful shade emerging and no idea of when it may emerge, it's common for the INFJ to question the future.
    Ok.. so I will get very personal here then.. But, then you call it bad timing and do not crucify the person for needing to grow before they can engage that kind of love.
    You send them on their way with love, not bitterness. you do not rip their soul out and call it a fair trade off.
    That is all.

    Maybe you have never been an angry and vindictive INFJ Fid.. So maybe this seems odd to you.

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