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Thread: Common INFJ issues

  1. #101
    Moving to the BVI Array highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Yeah, personally I'd like to see similar lists written by different types so we can get a glimpse into their inner workings. It would be really interesting to see what each type thinks their issues or potential problematic areas are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    This thread is becoming incredibly awesome and ground breaking. I am super duper thrilled.. Fid and Zanzi.. You guys rock!!!. You have cheered me up a little.. Bless you both.

    But really, I need to go.. I will be back
    Really, this thread is pretty remarkable. It would be a hard act to follow for other types or anybody else for that matter

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    re non-disclosure: As mentioned before, I hate emotional surprises. Therefore, before I put something out there, I would like to have weighed what your likely reaction is vs whether it is important enough for conflict or the feeling that reaction may engender in me.

    If you are not close to me, I will either decide that your opinion doesn't really matter to me and go for it, or that it's not something worth talking about if it is not affecting our relationship and it may create unnecessary conflict and is not a moral integrity kind of issue. Te in particular makes me feel very put on the spot. If I know that I will have to defend it, I'd like to have an argument ready.
    I've seen these types of references to Te in a few places. Can you explain what it is with Te? How does it put you on the spot or make you freeze?

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'll have to mull this one over. Generally I hate collaborative projects of any sort and would prefer to think, consult, think consult as separate rather than simultaneous activities. The reason for this is that I need time in between to think about the new information I have received and decide how I feel about it. I have a hard time doing that on the spot and so then end up agreeing to something that I'm not happy with in the end. However, it is good to try different ideas out, so I'm not discounting this.

    I believe this is one of the reasons that I truly hate commitee work. It just feels like I can get so much more done alone and then when I run into trouble I can actually use the person's time and resources more wisely. That way they can also get something done. You are probably right though that it is good to change things up and try it out.
    I used to feel this way about collaborative projects or work efforts but do not anymore. I guess it got easier when I realized that I didn't have to come up with the answers and that it was more important to ask the right questions. I could steer the dialogue, get everybody participating and offering their perspectives, and help drive the discussion to conclusions or decisions. With regards to INFJs, you have a natural aptitude for listening. Ni recognizes and appreciates ideas and alternative points of view. Fe seeks harmony within the group - possibly facilitating consensus. J seeks closure. So, I could be horribly wrong, but this might be something that you could be good at with more experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Orabas brought up an interesting point in another thread that I had not considered before. She was saying that Fe users tend to interpret critical statements as being much harsher than they really are intended because they tend to soften their message for their hearer. Fi users tend to take things at face value because that's how they would write them, and they are surprised when Fe users extrapolate beyond the words that they said. Do you think that may be applicable in this thread? I probably took both EW's and Arclights statements as being harsher than they were really meant, but even when they said they weren't meant harshly, I still thought to myself that either it was a problem in how they communicated it, or they were backpedalling, which wasn't the case. Food for thought.
    The only thing I'm wondering about in this thread is there is a lot of dialogue about Fe, which is immensely interesting and insightful. But there isn't much on Ni though it clearly is behind many of the things outlined in the OP. It's not a criticism. It's a question - just wondering why that might be.

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  2. #102
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I've seen these types of references to Te in a few places. Can you explain what it is with Te? How does it put you on the spot or make you freeze?
    Te seems a little aggressive and impatient to me, even though I greatly admire it. It's often what makes people excellent debaters I think. I just feel like I won't have time to properly articulate my thoughts before someone decides what category they belong in. I usually do better by looking for common ground than by highlighting differences, so sometimes resulting questions/arguments that the Te user might have feel attacking when they are not meant to. I have a hard time even using Te to organize my writing and so get mired down in this mess of Ni and Ti.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    I used to feel this way about collaborative projects or work efforts but do not anymore. I guess it got easier when I realized that I didn't have to come up with the answers and that it was more important to ask the right questions. I could steer the dialogue, get everybody participating and offering their perspectives, and help drive the discussion to conclusions or decisions. With regards to INFJs, you have a natural aptitude for listening. Ni recognizes and appreciates ideas and alternative points of view. Fe seeks harmony within the group - possibly facilitating consensus. J seeks closure. So, I could be horribly wrong, but this might be something that you could be good at with more experience.
    I like to either be a drone that is told what to do, or have a project being something that reflects my vision and that I'm 100% proud of. Even in Grade 2 I greatly disliked collaborating sentence by sentence to make a story with all of our classmates contributing. I didn't want to have my name on it. I am an excellent facilitator of discussion, but when working on a project together, I cannot control how hard others work, and I also have to treat everyone's ideas like they are equally valid, when in fact, I don't think they are. I am happy to be a benevolent dictator that seeks out information and takes different perspectives into account or delegates the parts that I know will showcase and use each team member's strengths. However, I've concluded after taking part on a number of committees that I just am less and less invested when I feel that there are more time efficient ways of doing things that could turn out better quality stuff. I'm okay with being the delegatee. I just don't like it when everyone is completely equal. I want a clear leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    The only thing I'm wondering about in this thread is there is a lot of dialogue about Fe, which is immensely interesting and insightful. But there isn't much on Ni though it clearly is behind many of the things outlined in the OP. It's not a criticism. It's a question - just wondering why that might be.
    I've wondered about that sometimes with me. I know that Fe use is pretty high on my list of functions. However Sim once suggested that because everything is viewed through the lens of Ni, I may just be less aware of how Ni affects my outlook or when it is colouring things. That may have some truth to it. Certainly it's there - I think I'm pretty good at generating a wide variety of possible reasons why a person might act a certain way or looking at the world from many different angles. I know that I make a lot of interconnections between different ideas (which is one of the reasons that I find it hard to synopsize or argue a point without bringing in too much extraneous information to annoy the listener or confuse them. I find it hard to weed out what matters and what doesn't until I've expressed it a number of times and distilled it down.)

    How do you see Ni figuring into this stuff, seeing as you yourself are a Ni-dom? Do you notice examples of Ni even within this thread?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I like to either be a drone that is told what to do, or have a project being something that reflects my vision and that I'm 100% proud of. Even in Grade 2 I greatly disliked collaborating sentence by sentence to make a story with all of our classmates contributing. I didn't want to have my name on it. I am an excellent facilitator of discussion, but when working on a project together, I cannot control how hard others work, and I also have to treat everyone's ideas like they are equally valid, when in fact, I don't think they are. I am happy to be a benevolent dictator that seeks out information and takes different perspectives into account or delegates the parts that I know will showcase and use each team member's strengths. However, I've concluded after taking part on a number of committees that I just am less and less invested when I feel that there are more time efficient ways of doing things that could turn out better quality stuff. I'm okay with being the delegatee. I just don't like it when everyone is completely equal. I want a clear leader.
    Well, I'll vote for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've wondered about that sometimes with me. I know that Fe use is pretty high on my list of functions. However Sim once suggested that because everything is viewed through the lens of Ni, I may just be less aware of how Ni affects my outlook or when it is colouring things. That may have some truth to it. Certainly it's there - I think I'm pretty good at generating a wide variety of possible reasons why a person might act a certain way or looking at the world from many different angles. I know that I make a lot of interconnections between different ideas (which is one of the reasons that I find it hard to synopsize or argue a point without bringing in too much extraneous information to annoy the listener or confuse them. I find it hard to weed out what matters and what doesn't until I've expressed it a number of times and distilled it down.)

    How do you see Ni figuring into this stuff, seeing as you yourself are a Ni-dom? Do you notice examples of Ni even within this thread?
    There seems to be an awful lot of commonality in general with INTJ. This whole thread feels Ni-dom in fact - investigating a topic in depth and seeking to elaborate on and clarify the key insights; a groundbreaking thread in the first place.

    I've listed the ones from your OP that seemed to resonate with me and "*"ed the ones that seem like they are related to being an Ni-dom.

    * 1)Delayed processing time

    2) Need for resolution

    * 3) Considering every hobby, person or idea expressed as an extension of themselves

    * 4) Dislike of emotional surprises - (It's different than the words that you have but the concept is the same of wanting comfort with the external environment before jumping in and not liking surprises.)

    5) Hold those close to them to a higher degree of accountability than those that are less important to them

    * 6) Easily embarrassed and quite private

    * 7) Long gaps in correspondance or putting off a job that matters a lot - This seems to be linked to wanting to do an excellent job of it and feeling overwhelmed by the amount of time or effort or organization required. The longer it is put off, the worse we feel. As a result, it is usually my most valued friends that I correspond with least. Usually I try to overcome this by phoning them, catching up on the bulk of it, and then writing the rest.

    Tendancies:
    * 8) Not creating clear enough boundaries for people around them - there's a tendancy to respond to those who are most actively demanding attention, especially when younger. Also the need to be sure that they've looked at everything from all angles, made a correct assessment of all possible motivations and exhausted what they can do to impact the situation before really drawing a hard and fast line. I think this improves with age.

    9) Find it difficult to assess when is the time to make a Big Deal out of something

    My own (maybe INFJ related) problems

    *13) Tendancy to be poor with paperwork (I'm not poor but utterly hate it with a passion), locating items quickly under pressure

    14) Am a responder more than an initiator

    *15) Not good at paying attention to detail (in my environment, and in instructions) - This is why I try to stock a lot of sensors in my life. They are happy to fill in my gaps and give me reminders when needed. They also tend to think in terms of smaller practical details that must be attented to.

    *17) Over-indulgent when under stress

    * 18) Put off jobs that are unpleasant or that I am not sure how to do - I'm sure this isn't totally type related, but I think avoidance is a greater tendancy with INFJs than Te driven people. Sometimes Ni and Ti create a loop that doesn't work well.

    * 19) Stubborn - I tend to need a lot of convincing with a new idea before I will adopt it, because it involves changing the whole structure over again.

    * 20) Promising more than I can actually deliver - I want so badly to take care of everything that sometimes I overestimate what I am able to do. I've learned as a teacher to promise less and make sure I actually do it every time.

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  4. #104
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Dude. Imagine a mob of angry INFJs attacking you for a misunderstanding. That happened to me on an INTP thread once, with a mob of INTPs, because I wasn't careful enough. Not making that mistake again!
    ^can’t stop laughing at this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    First off, Damn you Z (Aka congrats), I was going to say that last night, but I went to sleep instead about our bias against Arclight, and Esoteric.
    Being first feels like winning, and winning feels good.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Orabas brought up an interesting point in another thread that I had not considered before. She was saying that Fe users tend to interpret critical statements as being much harsher than they really are intended because they tend to soften their message for their hearer. Fi users tend to take things at face value because that's how they would write them, and they are surprised when Fe users extrapolate beyond the words that they said. Do you think that may be applicable in this thread? I probably took both EW's and Arclights statements as being harsher than they were really meant, but even when they said they weren't meant harshly, I still thought to myself that either it was a problem in how they communicated it, or they were backpedalling, which wasn't the case. Food for thought.
    This is interesting. I wonder if it's something that happens to a Fi users as they become acclimated to written communication, because I really don’t see it in my real-life Fi dom friends. They actually read more negative associations in my words than I read into theirs, I find myself being extra careful around them. Of course, I realize one person’s experience of two Fi doms doesn’t make for a compelling argument. I’m just saying my irl experience is somewhat contrary, while my online experience of Fi doms is congruent with what was said.


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    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I'd have to agree with you about that. So why the divide between written vs verbal communication?

    Oh, and highlander - I was surprised to realize how many common traits INFJs have with INTJs. I mean, I realized that there's a lot of common ground, but it never occurred to me how very pervasive Ni is in our outlooks.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh, and highlander - I was surprised to realize how many common traits INFJs have with INTJs. I mean, I realized that there's a lot of common ground, but it never occurred to me how very pervasive Ni is in our outlooks.
    Ni is an internal directed function so it has a habit of hiding that more. Discussions on it are one of the few I really like looking in on when it comes to the realizations of the participants. ^_^
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  7. #107
    wants Mifune clone minion Array Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    So why the divide between written vs verbal communication?
    I wonder if it has something to do with interacting with a keyboard and computer screen rather than a living breathing person. Maybe somehow Fi is at it's strongest when there are no people in the direct vicinity.

    That's a total guess, of course. Maybe a Fi person will answer you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I wonder if it has something to do with interacting with a keyboard and computer screen rather than a living breathing person. Maybe somehow Fi is at it's strongest when there are no people in the direct vicinity.

    That's a total guess, of course. Maybe a Fi person will answer you.
    Not this one, though the idea of no people around making it easier is a possibility. I don't feel as if I am under as much pressure for a response when there's no one looking at me expecting one.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Hi Zanzi
    I have been racking my brain trying to find a solution and a way to articulate what it is I exactly feel. So that I could express it and not hurt people at the same time. Because so far I have not been very successful and I would prefer not to alienate people I like and respect.

    This is the best I can come up with.. But I have a feeling I might get a hit here.

    I would like for you to think about about how hard you guys judge yourselves. The standards you hold yourselves to. The depth of your own self expectations.How self critical.
    Think about how you feel when you fail yourselves. The shame, the embarrassment, the horror, the anger, the shock and the hurt.

    You know how hard you can be on yourselves and you know it's almost impossible to reach your own ideals.

    Now I think Esoteric Wench and I understand this about each other. We have been Judged by an INFJ by the same standards that you use to judge yourselves. and we failed. and we are hurt.
    It hurts even more that we would never judge you by your own standards.
    It hurts when we are the ugliness you see in yourselves when we once shared the beauty instead.
    This is beautiful, Arclight.

    And, ouch, it hurts -- because it is true. I can relate a lot, because I'm in a relationship with an INFP, and one thing that melts down my last defenses every time is the knowledge deep in my heart that in the end, no matter what I do or how messed up I am or will be inside, he will never, never, ever see me as anything less than a perfect human being. I know that in his eyes, I am what I am, whole and complete just as I am, without even the tiniest space left of what I could be to be filled. At times, having his love feels like a forgiveness of my imperfect little existence.

    Why this post hurts so much is because I also know that I cannot love like that.

    I don't want to derail this thread into another Fe/Fi discussion, but I think the root of the problem lies in the difference between the two feeling functions. I can completely understand why you are hurt.

    Imagine people as beams of light shining across the room onto a blank wall. The color of the beams change with the mood of the person. Whenever the lights are in contact, the colors mingle, creating a new color on the wall.

    If bright blue means happiness, Fe will seek to create bright blue whenever it comes into contact with another beam. In a relationship, we always keep an eye on your beam, and another on the mixed color on the wall. When you shift from blue to green to red, we carefully shift our color to balance you out and try to maintain the bright blue of happiness on the wall, and try to nudge you back to bright blue and so we can as well. It's a delicate dance. We are aware of you at all times. Everything we do, every second, every move, we do while keeping an eye on your color. At all times, we try to notice subtle changes and try to adapt, so that our mixed color on the wall will be as close to blue as possible. In a way, we cease to be our own beam of light. We become part of us. It's like a dance. When our beam dims from depression, we hope you would help brighten up to balance us out, because we would do the same without even thinking.

    Fi seems to see this phenomenon very differently. You are your own beam of light that never changes with contact with other beams. You look at the final color on the wall, but just to observe, without the preconception that it should be bright blue. In the same way, you look at our color and you see it as it is, not as a possible component to which you add your own color to make blue. The changes in your color could be influenced by our color, but never as a direct reaction.

    Here is where a lot of problems arise. Fe gets hurt when it realizes there has never been the 'us' beam, that all the 'us' has been one-sided. It has no idea that for Fi there doesn't have to be the 'us' beam, but two separate beams, side by side. Fe can take this as a rejection -- a refusal to merge, to become one. That hurts.

    Being a J, an INFJ knows what color he or she wants on the wall. Who doesn't want to be happy? To have a good life, to be healthy, to be safe? In reality the bright blue of perfection is a lot more complex than just 'happiness', because everyone defines happiness differently.

    Healthy Fe learns to accept that the spot on the wall doesn't have to be a certain color all the time and that the other person might not even want that certain color. Healthy Fi learns to accept that there are certain colors that work better for both parties and it is in their power to tune their own beam a little to achieve it.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think most of the time, INFJs don't judge like a court judges a criminal. For Fi, I know it must seem like it, considering how unjudging Fi is in nature. It's more like we don't understand why you refuse to do the merge. We never said it had to be the way we want. Just tell us what color you like on the wall and we will try to accommodate. We can discuss it and work it out together. However, keep in mind that this 'us' isn't the only spot we shine on. All other relationships require tuning on our part. If what you want is so different that what the rest needs, we are stuck in the middle, and we strain ourselves so hard to keep all the lights blue. No, we cannot stop doing it. For us, not tuning means we don't care.

    What does judging mean? It doesn't mean that you have to live up to a certain standard that we set for you. It's just that we keep an eye on the spot of light on the wall where our beams meet, and that we are painfully aware of how everything affects everything else. If your light turns red and makes the mixed light something other than blue, we are aware that it's doing so, and we need to understand why it is red and how we can help. Do we judge you for it? Maybe yes, maybe no. But the thing is, we need to understand why, because we cannot keep our eyes off the color on the wall, the same way you cannot keep your eyes off your own beam and our beam. What guides you is internal. What guides us is the color on the wall. We are far more affected by our mixed effect and without good communication, we are completely lost.

    When we love you, we seek to merge with you in this way. You become half of our whole world and not a separate entity.

    I have no idea if this is relevant or if other INFJs can relate at all. Sorry for the longwindedness. I got a bit emotional reading Arclight's post and I felt like I had to get something out.

  10. #110
    Lay the coin on my tongue Array SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Just thought of another that should have gone on my personal list. I have a tendancy towards secrecy/protectiveness of anything that I feel others whose opinions matter would really dislike. This can be pretty innocuous (no one needs to know my secret affection for Phil Collin's Groovy Kind of Love), or it may be that I don't have different groups of friends meet each other if I don't think they'll hitch (that emotional surprises thing again) or sometimes when I do/don't do something that I feel bad about and don't want others to know.

    This is where it gets most serious and it leads to sins of omission or a little lie, but the cavern just gets deeper the ground seems to split further and further apart. Then it's hard to backtrack and set things right again. Not only does this go against my value system and my profession of being a Christian, but secrecy always takes on a life of its own. What may start out as saying you've done something that you intend to do later that day, becomes a much bigger deal the longer it goes on. It comes between people and compromises the trust that should be there. It stems from not wanting to disappoint others, but really is a form of pride and not taking responsibility for your behaviour or decisions. This one I have worked on a lot through the years and I think am much better than I was. It is a trait in myself that I truly despise and see as being very destructive.
    Yes...I think I know what you mean, I think I see this in myself too.

    To give a couple of practical, though perhaps slightly silly examples: despite the fact that I adore the Lord of the Rings films, it annoys me a bit that now "everyone" knows who Gandalf, Aragorn and Legolas are, because films reach such a wider audience...before, I felt like I belonged to more of a private club who'd read the books (even though there were a lot of people in that "club"!).

    Or, even if I've discussed the whole situation extensively with a close friend, I might subsequently avoid telling that friend that I'm still hanging out with a guy for who I'm nursing a secret crush...because I know she thinks it's a bad idea...even though she'd be sympathetic and non-judgmental and could probably give me some interesting advice on the situation...I'll just kind of keep it to myself because otherwise I end up feeling really exposed.
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