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[MBTI General] INF depth?

Athenian200

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However, we only know reality by our processing of reality... says my Fi. I use objectivity when thinking about ideas especially when discussing them, but my sense of reality is extremely subjective. Theories such as the collective unconscious and consensual reality are very attractive to me.

I agree with that. It's basically, "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

I often wonder about the collective unconscious as well. I've noticed that occasionally I seem to know things I shouldn't know if I've been in contact with enough other people that knew about it, even if they didn't actually talk about it. It's as if the very way they structured their speech and chose their words unconsciously gave me a vague impression of even small details of their personal experiences, like solving specific puzzles or details of events I shouldn't be able to know. It can be very weird at times. Like everything a person says fills in one part of a light area in a way you'd expect, and illuminates several scattered, varying parts of something you don't know you've realized until it hits you, and even then you don't always know who or where it came from.
 

JivinJeffJones

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What puzzles me, though, is how an inner perception of one's own feelings can be used to live life.

Are you forgetting that Fi is not primarily oriented around feelings but rather values? If your understanding of the inner workings of someone who is Fi dominant is that they allow their lives (long-term and day-to-day) to be dictated by random feelings, then I could see why you would have trouble understanding or even respecting those types. How they select those values is a bit harder to understand. Is that what you are asking?
 

Athenian200

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How they select those values is a bit harder to understand. Is that what you are asking?

It's just that sometimes they seem to react by applying values in a situation that I don't think calls for them to be applied. And then I'm at a total loss as to how to respond. So basically, it would be a lot easier to interact with them if I understood where their values came from. I just don't like that they seem to expect me to respect their values when I don't even see how their values are involved in this situation, or even what their values are based on.

I just struggle with vagueness in general. INTP's do that also, but can be pressed into an explanation I can understand if I really don't get it all, at worst with a few snide comments about my being imperceptive. INFP's just get angry if I don't get it or explain why I disagree. They even seem to expect me to see all of the value and immediately embrace it, after one instance of it being applied, and I often don't. Sometimes even if I agree with them, they get angry later on because I didn't see how a different situation fit into the same value, confused and not even seeing them as connected.

Note that this is from experiences with a few that I've known. I don't know that this is typical... even if it is, I'd very much like to understand it, because I don't like having painful disagreements with them. I feel like I could learn more from them if I knew where they were coming from.
 

Athenian200

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Sounds like the INFPs you know are a bit strange. :huh:

Yeah... but I usually chalk it up to me being oblivious to how they see things and vice-versa, and just sadly accepting that I should probably just avoid conversing with them because it hurts and confuses me to do so. I thought maybe they just valued intensely personal feelings that had a pattern I couldn't fathom because I was not that perceptive. Or maybe because on some level I can't really accept things I don't understand at all (which has been a weakness of mine that I can't seem to get rid of)?

Of course, if they make me mad enough, it usually sends me into an angry storm of rationalizing my position and picking apart everything they said that I usually regret.
 

sciski

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INFJs are just brilliant at pointing out mistakes in INFP thinking... as long as they're friendly and helpful about it instead of on the attack (and we'll pick up - or think we're picking up - your intentions). I really appreciate those moments!

So you just have to look like you really want to understand the INFP point of view, not look like you're picking things apart. So then when you correct us, you're helping to redirect individual threads of the interconnected INFP mind web, rather than cutting at the strands. The former is seen as helping, the latter is an attack.

eg. Instead of "I don't see how this relates to that" or "How does this relate to that" you could say "I don't really get it... but do you mean that blah blah was blah blah blah?" In other words, help us on the road to clarification - we need it! I think INFPs value the helpfulness above everything else - I love it when people make an attempt to meet me halfway down the road to clarity. I tend to get lost - and even if you have no clue what we're talking about, we can get lost together! :D
 
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marm

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INFJs are just brilliant at pointing out mistakes in INFP thinking... as long as they're friendly and helpful about it instead of on the attack (and we'll pick up - or think we're picking up - your intentions). I really appreciate those moments!

So you just have to look like you really want to understand the INFP point of view, not look like you're picking things apart. So then when you correct us, you're helping to redirect individual threads of the interconnected INFP mind web, rather than cutting at the strands. The former is seen as helping, the latter is an attack.

eg. Instead of "I don't see how this relates to that" or "How does this relate to that" you could say "I don't really get it... but do you mean that blah blah was blah blah blah?" In other words, help us on the road to clarification - we need it! I think INFPs value the helpfulness above everything else - I love it when people make an attempt to meet me halfway down the road to clarity. I tend to get lost - and even if you have no clue what we're talking about, we can get lost together! :D

Yep. But I don't mind if someone picks my brain a bit because it does show they're interested. Endless picking will get annoying though.

My best friends are INFJs and I'm used to them not following my leaps of intuition. INFJs have a much more grounded plodding thinking process. In my mind, everything is connected and I'll just switch tangent after tangent working it out as I go. Another thing I do is that whatever is on my mind I will connect to with whatever my friend is studying.
 

Athenian200

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Yep. But I don't mind if someone picks my brain a bit because it does show they're interested. Endless picking will get annoying though.

My best friends are INFJs and I'm used to them not following my leaps of intuition. INFJs have a much more grounded plodding thinking process. In my mind, everything is connected and I'll just switch tangent after tangent working it out as I go. Another thing I do is that whatever is on my mind I will connect to with whatever my friend is studying.

I don't mind random associations so much, I can usually figure those out without too much trouble. It's when they try to tell me what's right and wrong and expect me to agree without explanation that I get frustrated. If they're willing to just have a casual discussion, I'm more than happy to do that.

One time the reason I got mad at an INFP was because I felt like they slammed the lid on a casual conversation I was having with some other friends because they introduced a value that expressed disdain for the topic. I was mad at them for breaking up my nice little conversation and condemning it for a reason I thought was invalid and inappropriate.
 

marm

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I don't mind random associations so much, I can usually figure those out without too much trouble. It's when they try to tell me what's right and wrong and expect me to agree without explanation that I get frustrated. If they're willing to just have a casual discussion, I'm more than happy to do that.

One time the reason I got mad at an INFP was because I felt like they slammed the lid on a casual conversation I was having with some other friends because they introduced a value that expressed disdain for the topic. I was mad at them for breaking up my nice little conversation and condemning it for a reason I thought was invalid and inappropriate.

It doesn't sound like the type of thing I'd tend to do. I mostly keep my values to myself except when feeling particularly worked up for some reason. There are only a few subjects that can get me worked up like that. I'm very protective of my internal experience including my values and I don't share them much. When I do, I usually present them as ideas because that creates some distance from the actual value.
 

heart

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INFP's just get angry if I don't get it or explain why I disagree. They even seem to expect me to see all of the value and immediately embrace it, after one instance of it being applied, and I often don't. Sometimes even if I agree with them, they get angry later on because I didn't see how a different situation fit into the same value, confused and not even seeing them as connected.

Note that this is from experiences with a few that I've known. I don't know that this is typical... even if it is, I'd very much like to understand it, because I don't like having painful disagreements with them. I feel like I could learn more from them if I knew where they were coming from.

Sounds like INFP with undeveloped inferior functions to give perspective and balance.

My best friends are INFJs and I'm used to them not following my leaps of intuition. INFJs have a much more grounded plodding thinking process. In my mind, everything is connected and I'll just switch tangent after tangent working it out as I go. Another thing I do is that whatever is on my mind I will connect to with whatever my friend is studying.

That is a shame that they don't appreciate your input. My husband I work best as a team if he shares his Ni and allows input from my Ne. He appreicates the Ne and is amazed that I can connect things he is too focused on his original idea to do so. The two can complement well I think.
 

marm

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That is a shame that they don't appreciate your input. My husband I work best as a team if he shares his Ni and allows input from my Ne. He appreicates the Ne and is amazed that I can connect things he is too focused on his original idea to do so. The two can complement well I think.

Sometimes they appreciate it, but I can tell when my best friend is listening merely out of politeness. I appreciate that he lets me blather on. He understands I can't help myself.
 

will5250

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I'd like to ask why the dominant Fi users consider Fe to be "cold"?
I have read descriptions that describe use of Fe as connection. From what I have observed of Fe, it feels like standing at a distance pointing at an other, or standing back observing and complimenting, but it doesn't feel like connection per se. Connection to me is going deep inside and bridging to, or feeling an other's inside. I don't exactly call Fe cold, but it seems a tad more distant. It's a difference in functionality.
 

Athenian200

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I have read descriptions that describe use of Fe as connection. From what I have observed of Fe, it feels like standing at a distance pointing at an other, or standing back observing and complimenting, but it doesn't feel like connection per se. Connection to me is going deep inside and bridging to, or feeling an other's inside. I don't exactly call Fe cold, but it seems a tad more distant. It's a difference in functionality.

I would feel rather uncomfortable with someone looking that deep automatically, especially if I didn't know or trust them well. It honestly feels invasive, and I don't really appreciate it. So for some people, Fe actually is the more sympathetic approach. Especially when you can't understand people messing around and trying to invade your core self with their personal feelings about things, which are inconsistent and inapplicable under most circumstances.

It's almost like I'm often left thinking, "I disagree with your perspective after having considered it relative to other perspectives, so quit making judgments about my feelings based on the nature of something I can't control. Look at the fact that I'm still being nice to you, and don't think less of you for differing with me. Don't act as if your perception is right despite anything that is said, and start making inaccurate assumptions about my motives for disagreeing based on it."

This is the conflict I can have with Fi frequently. It seems like this can happen with any xxFP. What I don't like is that it's hard to get them to listen to what I'm saying instead of ignoring what I was saying and looking for the tone behind it, when what I was actually saying would have explained to them what they wanted to know about my feelings better than my tone would have.

Yet it doesn't seem like this happens with all of them. It seems to me that the ones who open their minds and become more aware are far less likely to do this to me (It's probably much like what heart said).

So I guess the point is, Fi and Fe are both valid ways of Feeling, and people are usually more comfortable with one or the other.
 

heart

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I have read descriptions that describe use of Fe as connection. From what I have observed of Fe, it feels like standing at a distance pointing at an other, or standing back observing and complimenting, but it doesn't feel like connection per se. Connection to me is going deep inside and bridging to, or feeling an other's inside. I don't exactly call Fe cold, but it seems a tad more distant. It's a difference in functionality.

It scares me at times because I just feel I cannot know when it is sincere or just trying to be social. If I say something it is because I felt moved to, not because I wanted to make a specific impression on someone else or fit to a social expectation. I have made mis-steps in my life taking someone's Fe seriously when it wasn't serious. Makes one gunshy is all.
 

heart

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Sometimes they appreciate it, but I can tell when my best friend is listening merely out of politeness. I appreciate that he lets me blather on. He understands I can't help myself.

If your posts here and on the other board are an example of you, then I don't think you blather on.
 

marm

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If your posts here and on the other board are an example of you, then I don't think you blather on.

I'm sure I'd be more reserved on internet boards than when talking in private with best friend. But I'm pretty reserved no matter what the context.

Maybe it isn't blathering, but what I'm excited about isn't always exciting to my friend. When something is on my mind, then its the only thing I can think about and I'll relate everything to it. I obsess and won't let it drop. And, when like that, I can't help but talk about it.

Its funny that you brought up how I am on these boards. Part of the reason I joined places like this is so I'd have other outlets for my thoughts. I have too many interests that one person or even one board can't satisfy my need to express myself and get responses back.

Thanks for telling me I don't blather. Its always nice to hear.:)
 

will5250

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I would feel rather uncomfortable with someone looking that deep automatically, especially if I didn't know or trust them well. It honestly feels invasive, and I don't really appreciate it. So for some people, Fe actually is the more sympathetic approach. Especially when you can't understand people messing around and trying to invade your core self with their personal feelings about things, which are inconsistent and inapplicable under most circumstances.

It's almost like I'm often left thinking, "I disagree with your perspective after having considered it relative to other perspectives, so quit making judgments about my feelings based on the nature of something I can't control. Look at the fact that I'm still being nice to you, and don't think less of you for differing with me. Don't act as if your perception is right despite anything that is said, and start making inaccurate assumptions about my motives for disagreeing based on it."

This is the conflict I can have with Fi frequently. It seems like this can happen with any xxFP. What I don't like is that it's hard to get them to listen to what I'm saying instead of ignoring what I was saying and looking for the tone behind it, when what I was actually saying would have explained to them what they wanted to know about my feelings better than my tone would have.

Yet it doesn't seem like this happens with all of them. It seems to me that the ones who open their minds and become more aware are far less likely to do this to me (It's probably much like what heart said).

So I guess the point is, Fi and Fe are both valid ways of Feeling, and people are usually more comfortable with one or the other.
I can't seem to get the multi quote option to work on this thing. I'll figure it out.

Athenian, its not like I read your mind. I want to hear your explanation. It's kind of like listening to choral music. Music is also a language that communicates meaning. When I listen to choral music, I am comparing the words to the music and often marveling at the composer's skill in making his music communicate similar or the same meaning as the words sung with it. With people, I get dual communication, and when the two don't match up I wonder who is wrong, my perception or their explanation. I am very slow to accuse people of misrepresenting themselves. I want them to turn out to be genuine, or to be able to justify their motivations, but the dissonance does bother me.
 

will5250

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I wanted to add that reading the early part of this thread was a very novel experience for me. I am unaccustomed to attributes of INFP being described, by people who are of other personality types, as 'desirable'. I guess what I am trying to say, is thank you.
 
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