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  1. #31
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Fill in any thing that makes up your self-concept and then think have you ever had it challenged. What happened if the results were not to your liking? What is your reconciliation process? This can be hypothetical or experiential.
    My reconciliation process has been very much a process of good/bad judgement. Results to my liking buoyed me up and fed my self-confidence, giving me a sense of empowerment in life. Results not to my liking would often be accepted as true with little questioning and begin to infect every other aspect of my self-concept. If I could be unaware of how unacceptable I was in one challenged area, it was possible I could be equally unaware of how unacceptable I was in every other area. In an effort not to be unsettled by a surprise external challenge to my self-concept, I would regularly attempt to challenge myself first internally with as many possible negative self-concept truths as I could imagine. I generally found myself to be capable of the crime.

    It is not perhaps a self-affirming way to move through life, but I continued this behavior because when my self-concept expectations were lowest they felt the least penetrable and when they were more inflated my self-concept felt most vulnerable.

    However I've been trying to adopt a different, very aspirational, reconciliation process:

    I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  2. #32
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    If being a compassionate person is part of how you self-identify what happens when you find out that you're not really compassionate? If you think you're not racist or homophobic what happens when you realize you that you are? Fill in any thing that makes up your self-concept and then think have you ever had it challenged. What happened if the results were not to your liking? What is your reconciliation process? This can be hypothetical or experiential.
    Does it mean that something is wrong with me if I can't think of anything I identify with ??

  3. #33
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.
    Your approach is so simple it's revolutionary!

    I'm going to try this. Instead of biting my tongue or going out of my way to be nice or fit any kind of mental image of 'good' or 'me' and double check myself mentally to this image like I do every day, I'll just do whatever my impulses tell me to and see where that leads me. Superficial imposed standards be damned.

    Wow, it'll be so nice to actually see who I really am.



    I shall report back...

  4. #34
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    However I've been trying to adopt a different, very aspirational, reconciliation process:

    I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.
    *nods* I have recently started trying this approach. An attempt to redefine all judgment related words to be both good and bad. Then to see all of it as a part of me.

    Cze, try reading "The Dark Side of the Light Chaser" if you have the time.

  5. #35
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering View Post
    Does it mean that something is wrong with me if I can't think of anything I identify with ??
    No...but I'd find it hard to believe there are few things that you identify with/as, which creates your self-concept.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #36
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I am very in tune with my faults, and strive to improve them. I don't have an inflated vision of myself, but I am an enthusiastic optimist.. or so I am told. When I discover something distasteful about myself, I am not so much getting knocked off my pedestal, but I explore the whys and the whats of this fault. And in reference to the "I'm caring, I'm compassionate" part.. I actually have to be convinced by my closest friends that I am caring, compassionate, sympathetic, etc when I claim not to be. I think it is the SJ that causes one to think they are something they are not. It keeps them sane.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    I'm trying to abandon the idea of good and bad. My expression of self just is. I may value certain things and I may strive to live in a way that matches my values, but not doing so is not a source of judgement. If I become aware of my experience not matching what I value, I try to simply accept my experience for what it is in the moment, re-evaluate and re-orient to what I value, and then continue to experience and accept that experience. I try to just be, without judgement and sometimes even without description.
    The only reason I reply here is to constrast my own view as a INFP, whether or not my view is typical for an INFP to hold, that I don't know. I am really not trying to debate as much as contrast how another NF feels on this type of issue.

    There is something in this idea above that I could never apply to myself, something in the idea of abandoning the judgment of good or bad, right or wrong. Maybe it is because I see life as the result of opposite forces coming together. This is also why I find new age philosophies so disquieting. Without being able to use internal judgment to delinate clearly between what is beneficial and what is not, how could I make clear enough decisions in how I move through life. My internal judgment of what is right and wrong is the only sure foundation I have ever felt in world that is very unsure. Without that foundation, life would be scary.

    I am wondering if this is something often felt by INFP, or just my own particular thing?

    Below is an a example of the kind of thinking that I find very compelling, it speaks to something I have always felt inside was right:

    Such is the very death of the created being. We die to the extent that we fail to discriminate. For this reason the natural impulse of the created being is directed toward differentiation and toward the struggle against the ancient, pernicious state of sameness. The natural tendency is called Principium Individuationis (Principle of Individuation).

    This principle is indeed the essence of every created being. From these things you may readily recognize why the undifferentiated principle and lack of discrimination are all a great danger to created beings. For this reason we must be able to distinguish the qualities of the Pleroma. Its qualities are the PAIRS OF OPPOSITES, such as:



    the effective and the ineffective

    fullness and emptiness

    the living and the dead

    light and dark

    hot and cold

    energy and matter

    time and space

    good and evil

    the beautiful and the ugly

    the one and the many

    and so forth.



    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    In this world, man is Abraxas, who gives birth to and devours his own world.

    The star is man’s God and goal.

    It is his guiding divinity; in it man finds repose.

    To it goes the long journey of the soul after death; in it shine all things which otherwise might keep man from the greater world with the brilliance of a great light.



    To this One, man ought to pray.

    Such a prayer increases the light of the star.

    Such a prayer builds a bridge over death.

    It increases the light of the microcosm; when the outer world grows cold, this star still shines.



    There is nothing that can separate man from his own God, if man can only turn his gaze away from the fiery spectacle of Abraxas.




    Carl Jung
    Seven Sermons to the Dead

    written between December 15, 1916 and February 16, 1917 under the pseudonym "Basilides of Alexandria"

  8. #38
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Cze, try reading "The Dark Side of the Light Chaser" if you have the time.
    This is an excellent book and I recommend it too. That's why I said in my blog I'm currently *embracing my shadow*. In reading it (and from other sources) I learned that when I sit with the 'unacceptable', hidden, or shadow parts of myself... almost as if by magic they become integrated and at the same time lose their hold on me. Then they stop becoming unconscious, kneejerk reactions and start to become matters of choice.

  9. #39
    Highly Hollow Wandering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    No...but I'd find it hard to believe there are few things that you identify with/as, which creates your self-concept.
    I know, it sounds crazy

    But honestly, the only thing I can think of that I REALLY identify as, is "human being". I'm human. With all the good and bad that this implies. I have an infinite potential for goodness on one hand, and an infinite potential for evil on the other. And I accept that. It doesn't bother me anymore. It used to. I used to berate myself for being anything less than perfect, but that was a long time ago, back when I was a kid, and it led me straight to depression, so that's not a very useful avenue of thinking in my case. During my depression, of course, I went completely the other way, believing that I was all bad and that nothing good could come out of me. And now that I'm steadily coming out of it, I'm just accepting both sides of me. I can do lots of good even though I don't do all the good I could do. And I can do lots of bad though again I don't do anywhere as much bad as I could do. I strive to do as much good and as little bad as possible, but I don't condemn myself anymore when I fail to be perfectly good at all times and in all circumstances, or when I give in to my dark side episodically. I just remind myself that I am HUMAN. I try and correct the consequences of any mistake I make, I try and learn any possible lesson from them, and hop! I jump back into life.

  10. #40
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Your approach is so simple it's revolutionary!

    I'm going to try this. Instead of biting my tongue or going out of my way to be nice or fit any kind of mental image of 'good' or 'me' and double check myself mentally to this image like I do every day, I'll just do whatever my impulses tell me to and see where that leads me. Superficial imposed standards be damned.

    Wow, it'll be so nice to actually see who I really am.



    I shall report back...
    I'm glad it appeals to you, CzeCze. A variety of folks I consider very wise have been guiding me toward this approach for a while. I've been finding it very effective for me when I have the presence of mind to engage in it.

    I would be love to hear how your attempts with it are going.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

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