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  1. #101
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Now cafe, here is the state of the case: you are not 'good' unless you perform complete self-abnegation. Namely everything that is part of you shall suffer. You, your children and everything that you like. Than maybe the next world shall enjoy paradise, but you shall never know about it nor find satisfaction that you've caused this.

    This is the price for dissolution of evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I never said it was selfless. I said specifically that it was selfish.
    Exactly. We cant be selfless. Because of this all of the good in the world has to be illusory.

    Hence this necessarily follows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    Happiness is only a dream, pain is real.... I have experienced this for eighty years. I know of nothing better than to resign myself to this and to say flies are born to be eaten by spiders, and men to be devoured by trouble and affliction

  2. #102
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Exactly. We cant be selfless. Because of this all of the good in the world has to be illusory.

    Hence this necessarily follows.
    So my wanting a good thing for my grandchildren which would also result in a better place for everybody's grandchildren cannot possibly result in an actual better place because my motives are not pure? That's like saying that people cannot have been saved of dying from smallpox because one of the first men to vaccinate against it did so in order to protect his own family from the disease.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #103
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    So my wanting a good thing for my grandchildren which would also result in a better place for everybody's grandchildren cannot possibly result in an actual better place because my motives are not pure? .
    Yes. This is exactly what the scripture of how man is dead in his sins means.

    Only through pure motives can we be saved. And man's motives are never pure. Nor could ever be.

    People being saved from dying does not constitute the real good.

  4. #104
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Yes. This is exactly what the scripture of how man is dead in his sins means.

    Only through pure motives can we be saved. And man's motives are never pure. Nor could ever be.

    People being saved from dying does not constitute the real good.
    Um, yeah. I think Paul would agree with you on that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #105
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Um, yeah. I think Paul would agree with you on that.
    Now do you see why I am saying that man is a futile passion? No 'magnanimity' on our part can lift the burden of depravity of us.

  6. #106
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Now do you see why I am saying that man is a futile passion? No 'magnanimity' on our part can lift the burden of depravity of us.
    I've seen what you're saying all along. I just don't agree 100%. I believe that man is both evil and good. I don't believe that our good acts can redeem us, but I do not believe that good ceases to be good because it was done by someone who is less than perfect and has less than pure motives.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #107
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I've seen what you're saying all along. I just don't agree 100%. I believe that man is both evil and good. I don't believe that our good acts can redeem us, but I do not believe that good ceases to be good because it was done by someone who is less than perfect and has less than pure motives.

    In a way we could do good, but we could never be good.

  8. #108
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In a way we could do good, but we could never be good.
    Yep.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #109
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In a way we could do good, but we could never be good.
    Of course not! I thought this was settled way back... people are neither good nor bad... only their actions and intent can be perceived as such.

  10. #110
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Of course not! I thought this was settled way back... people are neither good nor bad... only their actions and intent can be perceived as such.

    Yet all actions, no matter how good they are lead to greater evil than good in the long run. Death is a great allegory for that. Everything we do, we do unto our eventual demise.

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