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  1. #91
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I would not sacrifice one of my own children, but if I knew my children would be taken care of, then I don't think it would be that be that big a deal. People willingly die for causes and always have.

    If it was going to be a very painful death, I might not be able to go through with it, but if it was going to be quick and painless, meh.
    Would you take ALL the torture of the world on yourself if this led to paradise on Earth. Perform an eternal self-abnegation. Would you be willing to suffer forever for the cause?

  2. #92
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    We rarely wish to make the world a better place. Usually when we say that thsi is what we want to do, it is just a cover up for more of our selfish motives. People shouldnt be allowed to 'try to make the world a better place' the reality of it is that they are using the resources that they received for their personal benefit. Some are just better at hiding this than others. We are not capable of anything other than serving our own ends.
    Haha better place... Yes I agree we all have innate tendencies to make the world a better place... for ourselves as individuals, not as a group. However because we have a rational mind, we can see that actions that get us short-term benefits can be harmful in the long-run... therefore actions of "making the world a better place" eg be less wasteful, consume less, preserve the environment and our natural resources will benefit us in the long-run. Such is a case where we can hit two birds with one stone... benefit the environment and benefit us... so who cares if it stems from selfish intentions?

  3. #93
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Would you take ALL the torture of the world on yourself if this led to paradise on Earth. Perform an eternal self-abnegation. Would you be willing to suffer forever for the cause?
    No, I don't believe that I would. I'm not that good. Even Jesus didn't have to do that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #94
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    No, I don't believe that I would. I'm not that good. Even Jesus didn't have to do that.
    In that case his redemption was perhaps not enough? Unless he really believed that he was taking on all the suffering on him.


    And there is your answer that outlines the problem of evil in connection to selfishness. That you care much more for your children than about the world. Because they are a continuation of your inner being.

  5. #95
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Would you take ALL the torture of the world on yourself if this led to paradise on Earth. Perform an eternal self-abnegation. Would you be willing to suffer forever for the cause?
    That's an unfeasible task... nobody lives forever... so pick something more reasonable.

    As to your first question... if that can happen I am willing to give up my life... But I don't think you've realized the following... giving up my life will be a selfish action. According to the biological perspective, the goal of living things is the propagate our genetic material... So as long as I have decendents, or that my relatives all survive and can reproduce, I gain rather than lose if I give up my life now. For I will die anyways... why not die now and ensure the survival of my genes?

  6. #96
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In that case his redemption was perhaps not enough? Unless he really believed that he was taking on all the suffering on him.
    He took all of it on and he knew it, but it was not and was not intended to be forever.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #97
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    And there is your answer that outlines the problem of evil in connection to selfishness. That you care much more for your children than about the world. Because they are a continuation of your inner being.
    Yes, and I gave you that one. I love them and I want them to survive and do well, but that was in my first post on the environmental thing, correct? I referred to the world I wanted for my own grandchildren.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #98
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    That's an unfeasible task... nobody lives forever... so pick something more reasonable.

    As to your first question... if that can happen I am willing to give up my life... But I don't think you've realized the following... giving up my life will be a selfish action. According to the biological perspective, the goal of living things is the propagate our genetic material... So as long as I have decendents, or that my relatives all survive and can reproduce, I gain rather than lose if I give up my life now. For I will die anyways... why not die now and ensure the survival of my genes?
    This is the point. Unless you harbor no selfish interests, you're not fit to be the Messiah.

    If Jesus really was the savior he must not have been looking forward to how he is going to go to heaven.

  9. #99
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yes, and I gave you that one. I love them and I want them to survive and do well, but that was in my first post on the environmental thing, correct? I referred to the world I wanted for my own grandchildren.
    Exactly! What good is making the world a better place if it cant be enjoyed by your or by your children! No really! Thats your problem of evil in a nutshell. Cant make a better place, may as well go off like Milton's charismatic Satan corrupting it!

    Hey cant become famous for being magnanimous, might as well become notorious! Anything just anything so long as you or your children are content in the long run! And you are not being sefless when you sacrifice your immediate self for your children because they are you, a continuation of your inner being.

  10. #100
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Exactly! What good is making the world a better place if it cant be enjoyed by your or by your children! No really! Thats your problem of evil in a nutshell. Cant make a better place, may as well go off like Milton's charismatic Satan corrupting it!

    Hey cant become famous for being magnanimous, might as well become notorious! Anything just anything so long as you or your children are content in the long run! And you are not being sefless when you sacrifice your immediate self for your children because they are you, a continuation of your inner being.
    I never said it was selfless. I said specifically that it was selfish. But that does not mean that it cannot result in real good, both to my offspring and to others.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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