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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    So is every kind of criminal.
    And so is every saint.

    What gives you the authority to decide which is which?

    At the very least, this person is your friend, so I'd think you owe them even more commitment and analysis than "average joe off the street."


    I didn't say my friend was a he.


    Women are human too.

    Matter of fact, knowing it was a bad action. Didn't feel bad. Knew that it was bad though. Yes attitude matters, and it's because behavior reflects attitude that I find it so very sad....who is this person I consider my very good friend?
    Do you think that is an even bigger part -- that you felt like you knew her... and now she's done something outside your expectations of her character, so it's been disenchanting? And if she did this, what else might she do that you did not expect? etc.

    Let's avoid talking about "feeling" right now -- since many people can not feel anything about a particular action but still choose by force of will and intellect to follow a particular code -- what is her choice of response to her action? What is her resolve for the future? How is she handling it with her SO? These things are signs of character (or not) as well.

    I don't care how my friends act towards others on a superficial level. But when it's something deeper I've got my thresholds. I want to feel mad at my friend.
    That is permissible. We all feel things.

    All the deep conversations we ever had seem pointless now.
    Why? Do you think she's a complete fraud... or is she just complex and conflicted? Why is anything she might have said now false?

    (Maybe this is more an NT thing, but we can detach truth from the speaker. The assumption is that the dumbest person can say something true and the smartest person can say something dumb, and the truth is in the words and ideas themselves, not the imperfect human attached to them.)

    Was probably my closest friend and that helped justify that I am and that made me feel understood....then did that. I wan't to feel mad but yet I don't...but I think I lost so much respect...feel a void. It's all making me very cynical and nihilistic...were are the people that think like me anyway....do I just hold people to too high standards?
    Why can't you allow yourself to be disappointed with people?
    It's okay to be disappointed with people when they let you down, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm not moved by disappointment, but by a need for congruence. If I always talk about cheaters as people I don't like, why would my friend be an exception? I don't choose sides. My values ARE my identity.
    Okay, here is another question, then: Why do you have to label someone who cheats as a "cheater" in character, and then label "cheaters" as people you are not allowed to like?

    You never had a chance to accept your friend. As soon as she violated one of your ideas, she was automatically dumped into the box of "unlikeable." Why not have a more nuanced approach?

    The problem is that everyone, including you, is human, and to generalize someone so much is inevitably either going to dump everyone into the box of "unlikeable" OR it's going to remove some decent but flawed people from your life and might leave some very bad people in your life who merely haven't broken one of your personal rules.

    I try very hard to see each person as an individual. Instead of labeling and boxing them, and THEN deciding what to do with them, I just deal with them as a unique person. It seems to give me the most flexibility in maintaining relationships with others.

    What you are describing isn't weird, I have heard it from other NFs before. I'm still trying to get a grasp of how you get into that bind. I mean, I guess the best analogy I can empathize through is the intellectual thing -- where if someone shows a deplorable lack of honesty or intellectual capability, I can no longer trust them as much with their ideas. And I think I remember feeling very let down when I was a teenager by people who either proved themselves to be intellectual frauds or people who were not consistent with their own professed moral code... I almost didn't even care about the code itself, it was the inconsistency that was hypocritical to me... I remember getting depressed over it... but I guess at some point I accepted that (1) I might not be seeing all the forces working on that person and thus judging them fairly and (2) might not really understand why they did what they did. So I needed to be more gracious and open.... especially because I no doubt could be judged by others too similarly.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And so is every saint.

    What's your point; and more importantly, what gives you the authority to decide which is which?

    At the very least, this person is your friend, so I'd think you owe them even more commitment and analysis than "average joe off the street."
    I think he means that it's a shitty excuse. And it is. Since they're his friends, he has every right to decide if they're worth anything to him or not. And I'd think this thread is proof that he's giving his friend the analysis she deserves instead of just writing her off.

    I think I understand his point. His identity is his values and it seems he surrounds himself with those who share those values. If a friend violates one of those, how could he remain friends with someone who doesn't share his values?



  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm not moved by disappointment, but by a need for congruence. If I always talk about cheaters as people I don't like, why would my friend be an exception? I don't choose sides. My values ARE my identity.
    Well, I don't have that problem so I guess I wouldn't know. Because I don't necessarily "dislike" people who cheat. It's the act I don't like, and the position they put me in.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And so is every saint.

    What gives you the authority to decide which is which?
    What gives anyone the authority to put someone in jail for committing a crime?

    We all have values. I have mine. I have every right to have a way to judge people based on what I value. So does everyone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    At the very least, this person is your friend, so I'd think you owe them even more commitment and analysis than "average joe off the street."
    I don't owe my friend anything. I don't agree with that line of thought. I hate the concept behind loyalty. For every person I choose to be loyal to, there is another I give up on. It's unfair. I like being impartial...the people that are close to me tend to be the ones that constantly satisfy my standards of what a standup person is. It's fluid. You're not in the friend box or in the non-friend box.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer


    Women are human too.
    I didn't say my friend was a woman either. :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Do you think that is an even bigger part -- that you felt like you knew her... and now she's done something outside your expectations of her character, so it's been disenchanting? And if she did this, what else might she do that you did not expect? etc.
    Not exactly. This person is an NT so I never expected the same I would from an NF or SJ or SP. But I thought we agreed on some things (i mean that's why we are close friends), and one of those big things is that cheating is despicable and not that hard to avoid, and even illogical and not that self-serving from many perspectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Let's avoid talking about "feeling" right now -- since many people can not feel anything about a particular action but still choose by force of will and intellect to follow a particular code -- what is her choice of response to her action? What is her resolve for the future? How is she handling it with her SO? These things are signs of character (or not) as well.
    My friend hasn't told the partner. Shows no resolve for the future apart from saying that only the chase being satisfying and not imagining ever getting married.

  5. #15
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I had a friend who was cheating with a married man. We didn't speak for a year and our friendship has never really been the same since.

    They're still together and this was about three years ago. I've met the guy many many times and he's nice enough. I was especially appalled at her behavior because her fiancee cheated on her a month before their wedding. What can you do about it? Nothing but lose respect for them and wonder if they even notice. *shrug*
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  6. #16
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    Maybe it all boils down to what you are looking for in a friendship or how you define a friend. If cheating is very high on your personal list of moral no-gos and, as you say, your values are your identity, you might have a problem. On the other hand - how many people do you know who have exactly the same values as you and always follow through on them and never do something disappointing?
    I even know people who define a friend as "somebody who never judges you". Personally I wouldn´t go that far, but my guess is that, as Jennifer said, the real disappointment might be that your friend acted against the image you had of her.
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Xellotath's Avatar
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    1) When I'm confronted by an ethical dilemma involving those dear to me, I've learned to skip indignation first and get straight to the psychology of the scenery as soon as possible. It makes me feel useful, because I'm pretty confident that others will not handle it objectively - not to mention I wont make interpretations derived from intangibles like honor faith and trust. A reduction to stimuli, culture, association and behavior - without emotional, visceral value-judgment.

    2) That being said, once I switch off from that mode, I think I would analyze how the event affects me. Yes, it is miserable that others are in pain when the perpetrator is someone you care for, but as it concerns -you-, You've never had control over neither victims nor perpetrators, much less the favorable/unfavorable variables surrounding them. In other words, acknowledge that the actors in this play are fundamentally external.

    3) As a perceiver, its in my habits to merely take in the environment and form holistic perspectives, being a feeler, my main concern are people. In a way, having an event like this puts into question not only my method of existing but my method of interaction. Why? Because I couldn't predict it or sense it. I like to think that in general, I can be friends with many different people, cheaters included (my curiosity knows no bounds) - as long as I'm somehow aware of it. This is a crucial point for personal safety because when I'm friends with someone I can already more-or-less tell their range from a holistic perspective. To have it seriously contradicted by another event makes me really uneasy because I trust my feelings and my intuitions a lot. Put the pieces together: if using feelings+intuition did not fully, properly reveal elements you deem central to personality like -degree of faithfulness-, then how can you be sure he or she won't turn on you? After all, chances are, you've used N+F to form the relationship to begin with.

    Note, that this method is drastically different from going around trying to play morality judge (Fi) , or fall in loyalty death matches (Fe). You would have first, used your Te, second, detached emotionally, third, observed how it applies to you; which I think is more constructive.

    Hope that helps.

    "Neurotic, ha!"
    I let out a scornful laugh.
    "If neurotic is wanting two mutually exclusive things at one and the same time, then I'm neurotic as hell.
    I'll be flying back and forth between one mutually exclusive thing and another for the rest of my days.
    "

    — Sylvia Plath, The Bell Jar.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That is permissible. We all feel things.
    I don't like feeling mad. It would be like acknowledging that my friend somehow betrayed me when this is not about me.

    Why? Do you think she's a complete fraud... or is she just complex and conflicted? Why is anything she might have said now false?

    (Maybe this is more an NT thing, but we can detach truth from the speaker. The assumption is that the dumbest person can say something true and the smartest person can say something dumb, and the truth is in the words and ideas themselves, not the imperfect human attached to them.)
    No, I'm like that too. No, it's not that I don't believe my friend's truths anymore, but I don't know how much I can draw from my friend's opinions on matters we always discussed.

    Why can't you allow yourself to be disappointed with people?
    It's okay to be disappointed with people when they let you down, isn't it?
    Maybe it's my way of saying "people are human" and confirming I'm really one weird cookie. It's also because I don't want to give people the satisfaction to think I'm disappointed with them. And it's also my propensity for playing the devil's advocate. I mean, I still talked with my friend the whole night about this without ever being anything but completely logical.

    Okay, here is another question, then: Why do you have to label someone who cheats as a "cheater" in character, and then label "cheaters" as people you are not allowed to like?
    I don't label people that way per se. I can like cheaters but I'm a political being. Think "Joker". It's all about sending a message. I want my attitude to reflect I don't condone certain actions no matter how I feel about that person.

    You never had a chance to accept your friend. As soon as she violated one of your ideas, she was automatically dumped into the box of "unlikeable." Why not have a more nuanced approach?
    I like my friend a lot. He's not suddenly unlikeable or all bad. But how can I ever have a chat with him blaming people for being bad and attacking the act of cheating? How can I be ok championing and justifying my values when the people close to me don't get them?


    The problem is that everyone, including you, is human, and to generalize someone so much is inevitably either going to dump everyone into the box of "unlikeable" OR it's going to remove some decent but flawed people from your life and might leave some very bad people in your life who merely haven't broken one of your personal rules.
    Don't underestimate my intuition. I can't say I was super surprised with this episode. I warned my friend before about letting the SO go, because the other person was getting too involved and attached.

    I don't want flawed people in my life. Everyone is flawed, that doesn't make us want to be friends with everyone does it? I mean why do YOU even discriminate between friends and other people anyway, if most people are deserving of your friendship? My whole life is based on the fact I never do something I say I don't, in stuff that truly matters.

    As for leaving bad people who merely haven't broken one of my values...there is more to my idea of friendship than not breaking my values. They have to act good too. Besides, my intuition tends to be pretty good with people. And it takes a lot to gain my trust.

    I try very hard to see each person as an individual. Instead of labeling and boxing them, and THEN deciding what to do with them, I just deal with them as a unique person. It seems to give me the most flexibility in maintaining relationships with others.
    I don't label people as much as you think. I'm very flexible. I even interact with the social outcasts or the psychos and pariahs no one else wants to get close to. A friend is not just any kind of relationship for me though.

    And my nature is to NOT be adaptive. I'm fairly inflexible. That might be the bane of my existence. But that's what also makes me good at what I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I think he means that it's a shitty excuse. And it is. Since they're his friends, he has every right to decide if they're worth anything to him or not. And I'd think this thread is proof that he's giving his friend the analysis she deserves instead of just writing her off.

    I think I understand his point. His identity is his values and it seems he surrounds himself with those who share those values. If a friend violates one of those, how could he remain friends with someone who doesn't share his values?
    Accurate interpretation of how I feel, yep.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xellotath View Post
    1) When I'm confronted by an ethical dilemma involving those dear to me, I've learned to skip indignation first and get straight to the psychology of the scenery as soon as possible. It makes me feel useful, because I'm pretty confident that others will not handle it objectively - not to mention I wont make interpretations derived from intangibles like honor faith and trust. A reduction to stimuli, culture, association and behavior - without emotional, visceral value-judgment.

    2) That being said, once I switch off from that mode, I think I would analyze how the event affects me. Yes, it is miserable that others are in pain when the perpetrator is someone you care for, but as it concerns -you-, You've never had control over neither victims nor perpetrators, much less the favorable/unfavorable variables surrounding them. In other words, acknowledge that the actors in this play are fundamentally external.

    3) As a perceiver, its in my habits to merely take in the environment and form holistic perspectives, being a feeler, my main concern are people. In a way, having an event like this puts into question not only my method of existing but my method of interaction. Why? Because I couldn't predict it or sense it. I like to think that in general, I can be friends with many different people, cheaters included (my curiosity knows no bounds) - as long as I'm somehow aware of it. This is a crucial point for personal safety because when I'm friends with someone I can already more-or-less tell their range from a holistic perspective. To have it seriously contradicted by another event makes me really uneasy because I trust my feelings and my intuitions a lot. Put the pieces together: if using feelings+intuition did not fully, properly reveal elements you deem central to personality like -degree of faithfulness-, then how can you be sure he or she won't turn on you? After all, chances are, you've used N+F to form the relationship to begin with.

    Note, that this method is drastically different from going around trying to play morality judge (Fi) , or fall in loyalty death matches (Fe). You would have first, used your Te, second, detached emotionally, third, observed how it applies to you; which I think is more constructive.

    Hope that helps.
    I have been very logical and unjudging when talking with my friend. I agree with you to an e evliry xtent and am currently on step 2.

    Yes like you say in 3), as long as I'm aware of it I can be "friends" with all kinds of pieces of shit. I see it as a way of someone who is unaffected and immune to their (that would be "tough guy" me) to "convert" them to goodness indirectly by mere superficial social interaction and maybe a couple of deep conversations everynow and then. It's kinda like social service. Being the psychologist.

    But to be friends, real friends...I mean I have lots of friends but only this person was really that close and knew me a bit better. Now I think how stupid and romantic and naively idealistic I must have sound to my friend by sharing my thoughts on all sorts of things in life....I mean I always busted my friend's balls on all sorts of aspects of my friend's personality and saw the dark path my friend threaded...but shit.

  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I have known a number of folks who were in various modes of cheating. I have not known their SOs. These were ongoing cheaters, not people who cheated once and then exhibited remorse.

    On an emo level, I cannot help but empathize with the positions of those SOs-and then feel the emotional kickback of the pain they will feel if they ever find out. It makes me hurt inside for them.

    If you commit in a relationship, that is your word, your honor, your trustworthiness that you have laid on the table. You made a promise and you are breaking it and putting your partner at the risk of potential death via HIV, unknowingly. Responsibility fail on multiple levels to the person who trusts you the most.

    Morally-Fi I guess-I would feel the hurt and be offput by the person but would tend to reserve judgment. I do not feel comfortable applying my moral code to others.

    However-from more the Te perspective-I would not place my trust in this person again. If they can not be trusted to maintain an obligation made to one of the most significant people in their lives, why would they bother honoring any promise made to me? How can I trust the things they say to me to be true?

    If very, very close I would speak with them, emphasizing the responsibility fail, but for anyone else, I would likely distance myself from the friendship. I need to be friends with people who are honest and who I trust.

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