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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    My point wasn't that they CAN'T be broken, it's that I find Ss less likely than Ns to be snapped in half physically.
    Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

    Aelan, can we generalize about willies?
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  2. #32
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autumn View Post
    Sometimes I just wish I could let young people with a strong N know that things will be so much better for them when they are older.

    Anyone else?

    autumn

    older.... um yes.... but really what is older, maybe mature is a better thought? what do you think?
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  3. #33
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

    Aelan, can we generalize about willies?
    Well, just to throw it out there (despite being in the NF area )

    1) Why do you think Ns have a harder time as kids? Roughly 1/2 the population under graduation age are "Ns". It's not like Ns get bullied more or anything.

    2) Why would Ns have a harder time in negative situations? If anything, I agree with Ss are the least able to handle change.

    3) And of course, it is the degree of I/E and neuroticism that really define how we handle stressful situations.


    Know who I'd be comforting? The I--Ps. Life doesn't get better for them, as a general rule... and I'm including bullying at a young age to fitting into the working world. They need to learn coping skills to reach their potential. If there was a single trait in which I wouldn't worry about, it'd be N. It comes so packed with advantages that worrying about them seems strange.

    Course, if we were talking about being a smart kid... well, that's different. And I think that's really what was meant.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    older.... um yes.... but really what is older, maybe mature is a better thought? what do you think?
    more mature. Age isn't always correlated to maturity. There're a lot of folks in arrested development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.

    Aelan, can we generalize about willies?
    Umm. As much as we can generalize about breasts I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Well, just to throw it out there (despite being in the NF area )

    1) Why do you think Ns have a harder time as kids? Roughly 1/2 the population under graduation age are "Ns". It's not like Ns get bullied more or anything.
    Interesting point there. I was never bullied in a physical sense, but if you take bullying to mean whipped into conformity, and burying a part of whom you are, then perhaps.

    I think it is a difference where we are - I was told when I did the MBTI at 17 that in my country, there were 6Ses for 1N. Imagination wasn't as much valued vs being realistic.

    Was constantly told to stop being idealistic for e.g. In that setting, it was rather tough for me. For e.g. in kindergarten, I'd always have to explain to teachers why I'd colour my clouds yellow and the sky purple. Or in grade school why I wanted to write as a career, when "engineers, doctors, lawyers make more money". *muses*. Or why people thought I was crazy when I gave up a scholarship because I felt it was death to be tied to a job I didn't know, for 5 years in return for going overseas for 4. To them. They saw job stability and recognition and etc.

    2) Why would Ns have a harder time in negative situations? If anything, I agree with Ss are the least able to handle change.
    I think it is why I said the point of release for Ses (Am I the only one who keeps reading this as "asses" ) comes when they start seeing multi-meanings and that things can be different from what is said, done. Perhaps you have a point here that it is easier for someone imaginative to curtail that imagination, then for a realist to start seeing things in different lights?

    Course, if we were talking about being a smart kid... well, that's different. And I think that's really what was meant.
    Trust an ISTP to point out the blindingly obvious.

  5. #35
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Interesting point there. I was never bullied in a physical sense, but if you take bullying to mean whipped into conformity, and burying a part of whom you are, then perhaps.
    Just to be clear on the S/N thing, I was heavily bullied as a kid and continue to have issues as a result... however, this doesn't change when you say whipped into conformity - I went through the same process... most kids do (I'd say over half - I'd call them Ps.)

    I think it is a difference where we are - I was told when I did the MBTI at 17 that in my country, there were 6Ses for 1N. Imagination wasn't as much valued vs being realistic.
    In general, there are ~2x as many Ss as there are Ns, but this changes depending on the age group you measure. I don't think country differences were ever strong enough to make it a near 6:1 ratio, although I have seen samples that somewhat close (although I can't remember any at ~86% Ss, egad.)

    I couldn't find the table I was thinking of referring to N:S being roughly equal in highschool, so take that bit with a grain of salt. About all I can say for sure is that it's not as bad from 13-25 than it is from 50-65, in terms of population distribution.

    Was constantly told to stop being idealistic for e.g. In that setting, it was rather tough for me. For e.g. in kindergarten, I'd always have to explain to teachers why I'd colour my clouds yellow and the sky purple. Or in grade school why I wanted to write as a career, when "engineers, doctors, lawyers make more money". *muses*. Or why people thought I was crazy when I gave up a scholarship because I felt it was death to be tied to a job I didn't know, for 5 years in return for going overseas for 4. To them. They saw job stability and recognition and etc.
    I would agree, but is this any different than being called down for being a loner (I>E)? Or not being able to focus or complete things (P>J)?

    I hear what you are saying, but why associate that with N>S? The theory, I presume, of Ns being stuck in the clouds... but I see too much projection on this one trait. I'm stuck at a corporate job that drains my life as well... There is a preference for Ns more than Ss in the corporate world... while it's the Ps and Fs that suffer in that world. That's the focus of my confusion - things do get better for Ns because they already tend to be smarter on average, but things get better for smart Ss too. I just don't see Ns suffering more than the same Ss early on in life.

    Perhaps you have a point here that it is easier for someone imaginative to curtail that imagination, then for a realist to start seeing things in different lights?
    Well, it depends on how you define it. To put it another way, abstract thinking tends to be an aptitude - that is, you can't learn it. Ss that are effectively literal thinkers only lack the ability to become "N"ish, regardless if you define it as a method of thinking or the ability to think (ie: abstract or IQ). Again, though, this doesn't mean that all Ss are literal thinkers, anymore than Ns aren't going to go off the deep end on abstract thinking and lose themselves.

    It's just that in that sense, yes... "Ns" can gain the skills to do tangible things - do you not learn grammar, vocabulary to write? Yet, can someone really learn to write creative stories? I don't think the two can be treated equally. Course, a literal writer who writes hours a day and takes advice will be better than an abstract writer who depends on their innate skill, so it's not a clean line...

    Once you strip out ability from the S:N divide... well, it looks very different. But intelligent kids to have issues - they all do, regardless if they end up as S or N. True, there are more gifted

    (Some of this is IMO, of course, because I'm not sure anyone has specified a quantifiable way of measuring that Ns suffer as children - yours was the only one I read so far, but I'm not sure why it gets singled out. I would hazard a guess that Ss that are at the other end of 'imaginative' also have a very hard time in school, just as Ns with higher IQs will have the same problems with Ss with high IQs)

  6. #36
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by autumn View Post
    Sometimes I just wish I could let young people with a strong N know that things will be so much better for them when they are older.

    Anyone else?

    autumn
    i wish i had a N parent or mentor growing up. while it was fun learning how to be me and not what they wanted me to be, i think i would have prefered to have an experienced guide show me all the ins and outs of being ... different.

  7. #37
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    *augh* My original post got swallowed up so this is as far as I could reconstruct.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Just to be clear on the S/N thing, I was heavily bullied as a kid and continue to have issues as a result... however, this doesn't change when you say whipped into conformity - I went through the same process... most kids do
    Sorry to hear that. For some reason I was never physically bullied though I didn't fit in.

    (I'd say over half - I'd call them Ps.)


    In general, there are ~2x as many Ss as there are Ns, but this changes depending on the age group you measure. I don't think country differences were ever strong enough to make it a near 6:1 ratio, although I have seen samples that somewhat close (although I can't remember any at ~86% Ss, egad.)
    Dammit, I was lied to?! :steam: I tried to search out the stats and I can't find it. The powers that be. . .

    I would agree, but is this any different than being called down for being a loner (I>E)? Or not being able to focus or complete things (P>J)?
    I think where you're coming from is that all of us are different from the norm in some way, and there's always going to be something to pick on. I agree fully with that. The difference is more how well each deals with it that perhaps determines the extent of the "scarring", isn't it.

    To that end, I have to say I was merely giving examples of why I felt I didn't fit in, and trying to relate that to the OP, and wondering if other Ns had the same experience. Perhaps to let them know that it is normal. I couldn't speak for S because I'm almost zero Se and Si, so I thought it'd be better they spoke for themselves.

    In a sense, as you've mentioned, it is hard to quantify who has a harder time of fitting in, and it is easy to turn this into a self-pity exercise as well - "badge of honour who had the most miserable time?"

    Was then trying to work out for S/N, what could be the "way out" to break that cycle of victimhood, in a way. FWIW, you come across very balanced, a touch cynical, but sensible. So kudos to you for working over your childhood. Must've taken a lot.

    I hear what you are saying, but why associate that with N>S? The theory, I presume, of Ns being stuck in the clouds... but I see too much projection on this one trait. I'm stuck at a corporate job that drains my life as well... There is a preference for Ns more than Ss in the corporate world... while it's the Ps and Fs that suffer in that world. That's the focus of my confusion - things do get better for Ns because they already tend to be smarter on average, but things get better for smart Ss too. I just don't see Ns suffering more than the same Ss early on in life.
    See above on personal examples trying to relate to OP. Never meant to say each type has it easier, was just thinking aloud in a sense, what is possible given the OP.

    Is it possible Ns remember suffering differently? It's a habit of internalising and purifying the pain, so you see thrusts that weren't even there. I'm not sure how to phrase it better.

    So there is in a sense, a greater push to put some distance from it. Would that be the driver to make things better?

    I'm not sure if acceptance comes easier to which type. Part of moving on comes with acceptance. That's the reality kicker that Pink meant I think.


    It's just that in that sense, yes... "Ns" can gain the skills to do tangible things - do you not learn grammar, vocabulary to write? Yet, can someone really learn to write creative stories? I don't think the two can be treated equally. Course, a literal writer who writes hours a day and takes advice will be better than an abstract writer who depends on their innate skill, so it's not a clean line...
    This is the strange thing, I've never learnt English for e.g. by learning about nouns and verbs and grammar structures etc. I learnt more by reading since young. Even now I've difficulty defining what an adverb/nonparticular thingamijing is. It just flows for me or doesn't. So directions make no sense to me for e.g. I get lost around my own home.

    I think each type ultimately has pros and cons in terms of functioning, being bullied, and defenses against. So the key is more trying to reach a balance. Growing up is not easy, period.

    Once you strip out ability from the S:N divide... well, it looks very different. But intelligent kids to have issues - they all do, regardless if they end up as S or N. True, there are more gifted

    (Some of this is IMO, of course, because I'm not sure anyone has specified a quantifiable way of measuring that Ns suffer as children - yours was the only one I read so far, but I'm not sure why it gets singled out. I would hazard a guess that Ss that are at the other end of 'imaginative' also have a very hard time in school, just as Ns with higher IQs will have the same problems with Ss with high IQs)
    Was the post cut? This could be a derailment, but why are kids with high IQs singled out; wondering is it a culture thing? In many Asian societies, high IQ kids are actually the elite. They can be assured of steady jobs, good income, doors opened to society which normal kids do not get etc. In a sense, I was "whipped" because I refused to take that position. ISTJs do well in my world.
    Last edited by white; 12-30-2007 at 09:56 AM.

  8. #38
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    Quick Response to OP:

    Someone saying something helped me too. My ISFP best friend drew/painted/wrote me a book for my 16th birthday which was basically an illustrated story-poem she had written about me and one of my fictional crushes. It's title was "The Late Bloomer." And on the inside she wrote, "To my favorite late bloomer." I had never thought of myself that way before, but just that idea comforted me. Like she WAS saying, "Hey.. things'll get better for you.. I know it!"

    I still sit here hoping that one day the work I put forth will get me where I want to be, and that people will appreciate what I can do over what I can't. It was nice to hear it's possible then, and still nice to hear now.

    Even if the person doesn't "listen." They've still heard. They'll be able to tuck it away deep inside and maybe pull it back up in a time of need later.

    Edit: And finally scanning some of the other posts.. really this works regardless of type. Giving ANYONE a comforting word can make a huge difference.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, my point was the opposite. The S's I have known got more neurotic and suffered psychosomatic conditions because of the stress... and were unable to articulate why they felt so horrible even though it seemed clear to others.
    This *is* all about perceptions. Neither of us is incorrect. Apparently we grew up in two entirely different realms of experience. The Ss I knew we never at a loss as to how to articulate their problems. They just didn't do it in an N manner.

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