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  1. #21
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    is this mostly applicable to enneagram 5 related concerns. so it would influence 5w4 and 4w5 infjs? how do the boundary issues of e9 compare?
    First of all, this is totally feasible to me, because I do this: confuse my e5 with my INFJness sometimes. I really thought it was a J thing, though. With perception directed inward and Se being the least function, our connection to the outside world is weaker than most types. In any given situation, we’re operating largely on information already in our heads- rather than information in our direct environment. For this reason, I kind of envy the people who have difficulty deciding whether they are INFJ or INFP- because they probably have more of their perception directed outward than strong J types which gives them more malleability in their interaction with the external world.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    I have much higher expectations for the few people that I care deeply about, and almost no expectations for the rest of the world.

    And when someone does fail to meet our expectations, it is, like scortia said, a relief to be able to understand why that happened. It's like, if I tried to understand and explain the motives of say, a serial killer or rapist or something equally heinous, some people get very offended and believe that I'm trying to excuse the behavior. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm just trying to UNDERSTAND it better. It's the difference between reason and justification. I feel better knowing why someone does something horrible, perhaps because it gives me comfort to know that it's not just a completely random act.
    Someone told me once that people aren’t like mathematical equations and that I need to be more chill about my need to understand others’ behaviors, motives and intentions. My reaction was to explain that there was a *certain* amount of predictability in people, and figuring out as much of it as possible made life a whole lot easier. This was quite a while ago- before I had MBTI constructs at my disposal to better explain- I’ve just always known it was something I needed to do more than most people.

    I don’t have many expectations for people who aren’t likely to cross my path on a regular basis, but I do find that I have expectations for some people- who I’m not particularly close to- if I have to deal with them on a regular basis (i.e. co-workers or neighbors). These aren’t necessarily good expectations in which I expect them to adhere to a certain moral standard: I take my observations of them into account and create a mental list of “this is how the person might react” to use while interacting with them. It helps me to anticipate reactions, and make decisions about how to interact with them according to the specific expectations I’ve collected for them.

    I worked with an ESFP nurse for a while who was completely inconsistent with the way she managed her staff: she’d fire people for things that she often turned a blind eye to with others, she’d dump a group of new hires on me for training without any notice whatsoever and she quickly dismissed any feedback I tried to give her about this. This is an example of someone I wasn’t close to- but I really needed to form a basic understanding of her motives and intentions and create expectations specific to her in order to continue working with her. I didn’t need her to adhere to the high moral expectations I have for the people I am close to, but I did need to anticipate how she’d react during my daily interaction with her. I need to do this- create a sort of mathematical equation out of their characteristics to predict how they’ll react before it actually happens- with just about everybody I am required to interact with regularly. I think finding out about others' motives and intentions is such a relief (for me anyway) because it takes the randomness out of interacting with other people, it removes some of the unknowns and makes the external environment more predictable.

    I don’t know. I can definitely see some e5 influence in there- lots of overthinking. But I thinking the e5 (or maybe even the sp variant) just makes me need to do this more than other INFJs- and the tendency itself is an INFJ thing?


    Quote Originally Posted by whynot View Post
    It's interesting, however, that I love spontaneity in my daily life and don't feel the need to plan every detail before doing something, but I feel uncomfortable if my expectations aren't met on a more general level... such as with my relationships, career, etc.
    I’ve noticed that I like being spontaneous myself. It was always something about the INFJ description which puzzled me, I’ve always liked leaving a lot of things ‘up in the air’ till last minute, especially in my social life. But I’ve come to realize that it’s usually stuff which I’ve loosely anticipated in the back of my mind which I can act spontaneously on. I don’t like having others’ spontaneousness imposed on me if the option wasn't already sitting in the back of my mind somewhere.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #22
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    My closest friend IRL is an INFJ 2, and she will flat out make something up if she can't get enough data to figure out somebody's motivations. The need is really strong. Can't let it go till you understand it.

  3. #23
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The closer the person is to me who is behaving badly, the more I feel like it misrepresents me or says something negative about my ability to judge character. It took me awhile to realize this.
    I get this. I *think*. Many times someone else’s behavior will indicate that they don’t give me enough credit for understanding something. I need for the people close to me to give me credit for how well I understand others. I only choose to get close to people whose judgment I trust. I don’t really care if someone who doesn’t ‘get me’- who clearly doesn’t understand what my priorities in life are or doesn’t grasp what’s important to me- doesn’t give me credit for being the person I am. But it does hurt my feelings when someone- who I believe understands me- doesn’t give me credit for being the person I am. I always feel a bit ambivalent for being offended by it (unsure of whether I have a right to be offended), but it does offend me. Is this sorta what you meant, fidelia? It's kind of like: if they don't recognize that part of me, then WTH do they see in me/how could I possibly be important to them?!?

    edit: to give a clear example- if someone lies to me, and it seems like it should be obvious that I'll see right through it, I'll get offended that the person even tried to get away with it. I mean, it's offensive to be lied to- but I'll get even more offended that they thought I was stupid enough not to notice.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Can you give an example?
    Let's say that a close friend of yours is in an argument with another person. The person starts to go about the situation in an underhanded way, and as such your friend does the same. Would you respect that decision? The one your friend made.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I get this. I *think*. Many times someone else’s behavior will indicate that they don’t give me enough credit for understanding something. I need for the people close to me to give me credit for how well I understand others. I only choose to get close to people whose judgment I trust. I don’t really care if someone who doesn’t ‘get me’- who clearly doesn’t understand what my priorities in life are or doesn’t grasp what’s important to me- doesn’t give me credit for being the person I am. But it does hurt my feelings when someone- who I believe understands me- doesn’t give me credit for being the person I am. I always feel a bit ambivalent for being offended by it (unsure of whether I have a right to be offended), but it does offend me. Is this sorta what you meant, fidelia? It's kind of like: if they don't recognize that part of me, then WTH do they see in me/how could I possibly be important to them?!?

    edit: to give a clear example- if someone lies to me, and it seems like it should be obvious that I'll see right through it, I'll get offended that the person even tried to get away with it. I mean, it's offensive to be lied to- but I'll get even more offended that they thought I was stupid enough not to notice.
    I can relate to this 100%.

    ...and to what Tiltyred said about not being able to let something go until I understand it. I have a really hard time with that. On the other hand, I can't stand false information or lies, so I'm not likely to just "make something up" in the meantime. If it's something I know I will never fully understand, I find a way to justify letting it go. Takes a while, but usually works.

  6. #26
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I agree with what you are saying. What I was thinking of though is more the expectations that I tend to impose on their behaviour. I don't really care nearly as much if an acquaintance acts out of character or with bad character and I wouldn't be likely to call them on it. However, if someone close to me did, I would feel personally responsible because I had kind of cleared them at security! I had let them into the more inner sanctums of my life and trusted them because I believed they had good character and were trustworthy. If new information or conflicting information comes to light, I'm going to be much harder on them than the acquaintance, even if their behaviour isn't as bad as the acquaintances. Some of it seems to stem from me feeling that by vouching for them, my judgement of character or my selection of people is on the line. I would also go to greater lengths for them though and so I would show my care for them more than an acquaintance by risking the chance of creating conflict by getting to the bottom of information that doesn't match up or calling them out privately on their behaviour and why they are doing what they are. If they don't change, I would not drop them as a friend, but I would take several steps backwards because I no longer trust them.

    I am more likely than the average person to feel badly if someone disses music, an idea or a book that I like because I am unlikely to share something that I don't feel represents me in some way and that I am deeply attached to. Those things represent me. They are not just disagreeing with my assessment, it feels like a rejection of what I stand for. However, books, an idea or music cannot change once I've made a decision that I like them. People can.

    I have found at times that I am reluctant to introduce different sets of friends whom I'm close to, to each other. I feel like I would need to be able to predict how they would react to each other and that they would like each other, or else maybe it says something about what a poor judge of people I am. Even with a potential SO, I'd rather people meet him when we aren't as close and I could take a step back if it wasn't what I thought it was going to be like when I introduced him to people who mattered to me. Otherwise, I feel embarrassment, anger and yet a sense of trying to prove that my judgement wasn't so out of whack. I don't know how to describe it properly or if anyone else identifies, but I've had to battle that tendancy in myself sometimes.

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Let's say that a close friend of yours is in an argument with another person. The person starts to go about the situation in an underhanded way, and as such your friend does the same. Would you respect that decision? The one your friend made.
    If I was close enough to them for it to matter to me, I'd definitely tell them how it looked to me and what I thought of it. I wouldn't just step back and let it be. I only risk conflict with people I care very much about though. I would wish for someone to do the same for me if they thought I was making a terrible error in judgement. It might be a little hard or embarrassing to hear, but it would definiately impact me.

  8. #28
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    It keeps possible conflict at a minimum, which is understandable. I just saw it... I don't really know how I saw this, it just seems that if an action can be justified, rationally that is, to judge them for it seems strange. Just because they didn't handle it the way you would've doesn't mean it was the wrong way, and at times it is, grand scheme of things and such.

    This directed towards the second post above me.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If I was close enough to them for it to matter to me, I'd definitely tell them how it looked to me and what I thought of it. I wouldn't just step back and let it be. I only risk conflict with people I care very much about though. I would wish for someone to do the same for me if they thought I was making a terrible error in judgement. It might be a little hard or embarrassing to hear, but it would definiately impact me.
    Would you lose respect for them?

  10. #30
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    Let's say that a close friend of yours is in an argument with another person. The person starts to go about the situation in an underhanded way, and as such your friend does the same. Would you respect that decision? The one your friend made.
    Speaking for myself, I would be extremely disappointed in my friend, but that's not a case in which I would slam the door on the friendship. I would probably express my opinion, gently, and hope that they understand and would consider my views in the future, but if I'm not a direct participant in the argument, then I more or less stay out of it.

    If, on the other hand, this friend did something underhanded to me, but I then found out that there was some sort of chaos going on in her life that made her crazy, the future of our friendship would depend on whether or not she was doing anything proactive to fix her own problems. If I felt that she was just going through a rough time, and was getting help to get back to normal, then I'd forgive and weather the storm. If it looked like her life was just going to be a permanent state of chaos, then I'd probably walk away.

    Now that I think about it, I guess in the situation you described, it would also depend on whether the incident was a one-off or if it was recurring regularly. If I noticed that someone I cared about was repeatedly doing things that I thought were wrong or unethical even after being confronted about it, I would be probably stop talking to them, even if it didn't have any effect on me. So, the pattern of behavior is what really matters.

    On the other hand, I'm more likely to let these patterns slide in people I care less about. For example, in college I had an acquaintance who was kind of an asshole. He slept around and cheated on his girlfriend and just generally did things that I didn't approve of. But I knew all of this about him right from the start, so I was able to allow myself to enjoy his company without ever developing any expectations about his behavior.

    I am more likely than the average person to feel badly if someone disses music, an idea or a book that I like because I am unlikely to share something that I don't feel represents me in some way and that I am deeply attached to. Those things represent me. They are not just disagreeing with my assessment, it feels like a rejection of what I stand for.
    Yes! This is a killer for me, because my boyfriend (an ISTP) can't stand my tastes in music or movies, etc. He's not mean about it, he doesn't make fun of me or anything, but I always feel terribly hurt when he doesn't like something I've enjoyed. He is completely bewildered by this, the poor dear, because in his mind the movie (or whatever) in no way relates to ME, except just as something I enjoy. I'm trying, and partially succeeding, in learning not to take it personally.

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