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  1. #11
    Senior Member scortia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whynot View Post
    I’d like to consider myself a fairly healthy person, with an occasional side of anxiety, usually due to my perfectionist attitude and my idealistic view of how people should (could) be... this is sometimes over something that has happened in my life that creates unwanted drama. I get so worked up sometimes over why people do what they do. I know i have no control over it, but it still gets to me.
    This was exactly me back in college. I was eager about using my potential to its best, enjoying pushing my mind and ability, and very healthy after turning vegan and exercising a great deal daily. I was in such bliss that I wanted EVERYONE close to me to feel this sort of joy. I was repulsed by choices that they made that pushed them away from this sort of perfection of living. I scolded people and got discouraged when no one took me seriously.

    You just have to let it go. I realize now, in my mid-twenties, that I was being irritating. People need to find their own path in life. Man is a creature that, unfortunately, often chooses to hurt himself and dwell in self-pity or apathy when there's many better options. Just focus on YOU and hope that your own life can set a good example... let that speak for you.

  2. #12
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i instantaneously feel better when i am given insight into their motives. they become less foreign/hostile and more something i feel equipped to deal with--much like fidelia says when talking about predictability. i can be more open and hear more bc i am wasting less energy in emotional anxiousness. but if it keeps recurring i have to decide whether it is worth the energy investment to keep working on it or not. i can be a little stingy and withdraw if i feel the relationship is too one-sided.
    This is definitely true for me, plus what fidelia said about emotional surprises and predictability. I think it’s typical for many INFJs to constantly struggle with how to react when someone does something we don’t expect; we sense our own rigidity and don’t want to be unreasonable. Honestly I think many of us err on the side of accepting too much poor behavior to compensate for this rigidity. We know we need for our external environment to match what we expect it to be- on some level we see this- we instinctively compare it to other people who don’t need it and we see it as our own shortcoming. It makes us feel unreasonable at times and it seems unfair to impose on others, so we’re often harder on ourselves for not knowing what to do with the emotional surprise than we are on the person who sprang it on us. We’re always kind of at a loss when the initial moment (where something happens that we don’t expect) hits us and we figure it’s better to under-react than it is to overreact.

    Obviously this isn’t true for ALL INFJs, but it’s true for many of us. I have known an INFJ who actually did have unreasonable expectations, did overreact on a regular basis to her expectations not being met and seemed to be completely oblivious to the fact that she even had expectations- so the other extreme does happen. It seems like we’re either impervious to how our expectations affect others or we’re hyper-aware of it. But having expectations and feeling a little batty when something else happens is, I’m pretty sure, a rather universal INFJ thing. It’s the J: since our perception is directed inward, we need the external world to have consistency and we need to know what to expect.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #13
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    Z Buck's point about expectations is extremely insightful, and I can't believe it never occurred to me before. It also explains why I am more likely to let strangers or people I don't know very well off the hook for things that would drive me crazy if a close friend did. I have much higher expectations for the few people that I care deeply about, and almost no expectations for the rest of the world.

    And when someone does fail to meet our expectations, it is, like scortia said, a relief to be able to understand why that happened. It's like, if I tried to understand and explain the motives of say, a serial killer or rapist or something equally heinous, some people get very offended and believe that I'm trying to excuse the behavior. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm just trying to UNDERSTAND it better. It's the difference between reason and justification. I feel better knowing why someone does something horrible, perhaps because it gives me comfort to know that it's not just a completely random act.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scortia View Post
    This was exactly me back in college. I was eager about using my potential to its best, enjoying pushing my mind and ability, and very healthy after turning vegan and exercising a great deal daily. I was in such bliss that I wanted EVERYONE close to me to feel this sort of joy. I was repulsed by choices that they made that pushed them away from this sort of perfection of living. I scolded people and got discouraged when no one took me seriously.

    You just have to let it go. I realize now, in my mid-twenties, that I was being irritating. People need to find their own path in life. Man is a creature that, unfortunately, often chooses to hurt himself and dwell in self-pity or apathy when there's many better options. Just focus on YOU and hope that your own life can set a good example... let that speak for you.
    I can relate. I think more of what frustrates me is when others try to drag me into their issues. If they are going down a path that I don't necessarily agree with, that's fine... but please don't involve me or anyone close to me. Taking better care of myself is something I've been working on. It's not in my nature to focus on myself, so it definitely takes some work!

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Honestly I think many of us err on the side of accepting too much poor behavior to compensate for this rigidity. We know we need for our external environment to match what we expect it to be- on some level we see this- we instinctively compare it to other people who don’t need it and we see it as our own shortcoming. It makes us feel unreasonable at times and it seems unfair to impose on others, so we’re often harder on ourselves for not knowing what to do with the emotional surprise than we are on the person who sprang it on us. We’re always kind of at a loss when the initial moment (where something happens that we don’t expect) hits us and we figure it’s better to under-react than it is to overreact.

    Obviously this isn’t true for ALL INFJs, but it’s true for many of us. I have known an INFJ who actually did have unreasonable expectations, did overreact on a regular basis to her expectations not being met and seemed to be completely oblivious to the fact that she even had expectations- so the other extreme does happen. It seems like we’re either impervious to how our expectations affect others or we’re hyper-aware of it. But having expectations and feeling a little batty when something else happens is, I’m pretty sure, a rather universal INFJ thing. It’s the J: since our perception is directed inward, we need the external world to have consistency and we need to know what to expect.
    I definitely under-react to most situations. Good to know it's pretty common. It's interesting, however, that I love spontaneity in my daily life and don't feel the need to plan every detail before doing something, but I feel uncomfortable if my expectations aren't met on a more general level... such as with my relationships, career, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    Z Buck's point about expectations is extremely insightful, and I can't believe it never occurred to me before. It also explains why I am more likely to let strangers or people I don't know very well off the hook for things that would drive me crazy if a close friend did. I have much higher expectations for the few people that I care deeply about, and almost no expectations for the rest of the world.

    And when someone does fail to meet our expectations, it is, like scortia said, a relief to be able to understand why that happened. It's like, if I tried to understand and explain the motives of say, a serial killer or rapist or something equally heinous, some people get very offended and believe that I'm trying to excuse the behavior. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I'm just trying to UNDERSTAND it better. It's the difference between reason and justification. I feel better knowing why someone does something horrible, perhaps because it gives me comfort to know that it's not just a completely random act.
    I am the same way regarding my close friends. It's almost impossible for me to be close to someone who's values clash with my own.

    Dumbass moment: When I was a little kid, I used to insist that I could talk a serial killer or rapist out of hurting me... "Just tell me why you want to do this and we can work it out." Haha... Riiiiiight.

  5. #15
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This is definitely true for me, plus what fidelia said about emotional surprises and predictability. I think it’s typical for many INFJs to constantly struggle with how to react when someone does something we don’t expect; we sense our own rigidity and don’t want to be unreasonable. Honestly I think many of us err on the side of accepting too much poor behavior to compensate for this rigidity. We know we need for our external environment to match what we expect it to be- on some level we see this- we instinctively compare it to other people who don’t need it and we see it as our own shortcoming. It makes us feel unreasonable at times and it seems unfair to impose on others, so we’re often harder on ourselves for not knowing what to do with the emotional surprise than we are on the person who sprang it on us. We’re always kind of at a loss when the initial moment (where something happens that we don’t expect) hits us and we figure it’s better to under-react than it is to overreact.

    Obviously this isn’t true for ALL INFJs, but it’s true for many of us. I have known an INFJ who actually did have unreasonable expectations, did overreact on a regular basis to her expectations not being met and seemed to be completely oblivious to the fact that she even had expectations- so the other extreme does happen. It seems like we’re either impervious to how our expectations affect others or we’re hyper-aware of it. But having expectations and feeling a little batty when something else happens is, I’m pretty sure, a rather universal INFJ thing. It’s the J: since our perception is directed inward, we need the external world to have consistency and we need to know what to expect.
    is this mostly applicable to enneagram 5 related concerns. so it would influence 5w4 and 4w5 infjs? how do the boundary issues of e9 compare?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    It also explains why I am more likely to let strangers or people I don't know very well off the hook for things that would drive me crazy if a close friend did. I have much higher expectations for the few people that I care deeply about, and almost no expectations for the rest of the world.
    this is almost exactly what I would say about one infj here. me.

  7. #17
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    I agree with the others that understanding, or thinking I understand the motives of another, instantly makes me feel better too. The thing with expectations is that they're very hard to stomp on if you don't have many. I have found it to be rather freeing.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  8. #18
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about e9, but it applies to me e1w2 in a big way. It ties in with hating emotional surprises. I would rather be the one to endure some irritation or inconvenience or deal with something unpleasant emotionally. If I left the other person to deal with it instead I would find it distasteful to not know what their reaction would be and then what I would need to deal with as a result. It's initially easier just to suck it up. The only thing is that after awhile, a limit finally is reached and then it's easy to unload on the other person.

    INFJs tend to be able to look at issues from many different vantage points. They also take awhile to confirm that the conflicts they have with someone emerge into a pattern with an underlying meaning. Then it takes awhile to test if their hypothesis is true and then exhaust every means they themselves have of dealing with it personally. It's not that they are unaware of the other person's bad behaviour. It's just that the reason for it has an exceptionally big impact on how it is perceived and how it is dealt with.

    The other thing I've found is that T types tend to only give what they feel good about doing. F types tend to give beyond what they feel good about, believing that it will be noticed and taken into account or that there will be reciprocation at some point. When the T type neither notices or reciprocates, the F type gets upset. The T type feels a little blindsided because they never asked for the person to give beyond what they felt good about and assumed that they would be notified if there was a problem (as they themselves would do if put in the same position).

    Because I let fewer people into my inner circle and they are entrusted with more, I most certainly have higher expectations for behaviour that has integrity. I rarely bother having conflict with people who are less close to me because it is not worth the emotional investment. Therefore, it doesn't bother me when an acquaintance acts out of character, rude, without integrity, whereas it bothers me very much if someone close to me does. I suppose there may also be a slightly selfish element there too. All of my interests and the people in my life reflect a big chunk of who I am and what I'm all about. The closer the person is to me who is behaving badly, the more I feel like it misrepresents me or says something negative about my ability to judge character. It took me awhile to realize this.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The closer the person is to me who is behaving badly, the more I feel like it misrepresents me or says something negative about my ability to judge character. It took me awhile to realize this.
    How do you react if their behavior is justifed? Would you defend them, or would you let them resolve the issue alone (Without them asking for help)?

  10. #20
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Can you give an example?

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