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  1. #281
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    anyway...i think enfps are just at times annoyingly defensive...
    Pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    i know quite a few enfps really well and we are very aware of our faults...
    But you still like to endlessly brood over it instead of working on them, since it's easier and attracts more attention.

  2. #282
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    What do you mean 'make that awareness accessible'? It's something you have to develop for yourself if you want a place amongst people. And the last two things you said don't make any sense and seem to underscore the fact that you don't understand what I was saying.

    The point is that just because YOUR assessment of something is that it's false, that doesn't mean that it IS false. So, when you 'deprive' other people of the 'best of you' (HAH!), you are often depriving yourself of the real truth. That's the point. (So, what ends up happening is that someone says something that is true but is disruptive to your mental framework. You dismiss it, saying that it's 'a lie' and go back to thinking in your incorrect framework, convincing yourself that it's all their fault and that they were lying to you.)
    Not to be too ironic, but... bullshit.

    You've got a hidden claim in there that truth and honesty can coexist with not saying true things. Presumably this is some reference to the deep inner well of authenticity that gets hidden by but justifies the not saying what's true if it would hurt people.

    And get over it: if ENFPs want to work that way, fine; but you need to justify it better than with some swipe at INTJs as liars too.


    "Make that awareness accessible" means tell the truth as you feel it. You've set yourself up as the expert on matters of the heart, but you're not going to put yourself on the line and actually SAY what those matters are? Other people have to develop their own hearts? You get to sit all lonely and authentic by yourself waiting?

    This is what happens when you deny that truth is important: you no longer get to be heard as a truth-teller.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #283
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Not to be too ironic, but... bullshit.

    You've got a hidden claim in there that truth and honesty can coexist with not saying true things. Presumably this is some reference to the deep inner well of authenticity that gets hidden by but justifies the not saying what's true if it would hurt people.

    And get over it: if ENFPs want to work that way, fine; but you need to justify it better than with some swipe at INTJs as liars too.


    "Make that awareness accessible" means tell the truth as you feel it. You've set yourself up as the expert on matters of the heart, but you're not going to put yourself on the line and actually SAY what those matters are? Other people have to develop their own hearts? You get to sit all lonely and authentic by yourself waiting?

    This is what happens when you deny that truth is important: you no longer get to be heard as a truth-teller.


    Oh yeah, for what it's worth, lying is something I just don't do. Whether it's an INTJ trait or not, is hard to say. And I equate holding back something of importance to lying, maybe even worse. To let a relationship weaken so much because of a fear of confrontation is beyond cowardly. I'm sad to say that I've read that about A LOT of ENFPs. Hopefully it has a lot to do with maturity, and is most just likely to affect ENFPs. You guys are the sexiest type, and I really hope to find another one of ya (a mature one)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #284
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Not to be too ironic, but... bullshit.

    You've got a hidden claim in there that truth and honesty can coexist with not saying true things. Presumably this is some reference to the deep inner well of authenticity that gets hidden by but justifies the not saying what's true if it would hurt people.

    And get over it: if ENFPs want to work that way, fine; but you need to justify it better than with some swipe at INTJs as liars too.


    "Make that awareness accessible" means tell the truth as you feel it. You've set yourself up as the expert on matters of the heart, but you're not going to put yourself on the line and actually SAY what those matters are? Other people have to develop their own hearts? You get to sit all lonely and authentic by yourself waiting?

    This is what happens when you deny that truth is important: you no longer get to be heard as a truth-teller.
    Um, wtf? There was no such claim. The truth is often much more complex than what Ni reveals; that was the claim.

    First of all, I never said I wouldn't say what those matters are. I've been talking about the truth as I feel it throughout this thread. Second of all, are you saying other people don't have to develop their own hearts? Yes. They do. Unfortunately, it's not other people's responsibility to explain the workings of the social world to you. Third of all, what's wrong with you? You are not interpreting anything I'm saying correctly; you're reading your own interpretation that's completely incorrect.
    Last edited by Liesl; 07-03-2010 at 02:33 PM.

  5. #285
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i have never seen so much self-inflicted damage in all my life. the only way i can enjoy this is if an awesomely cynical entp is marionetting all the actors on stage like puppets.

    it suffices to say i've met few intjs or enfps in real life who behave at all similarly to anyone in this thread. the individual understandings employed seem mostly harmful, with much condescension pointing in every direction and no humor to mediate it, nor to help diffuse individual desires that don't turn out the way they intend to satisfy themselves. and almost everyone in this thread obviously wants something, or has a bone to pick, or is rooting their behavior in an extremely obvious agenda. wrapping every element of every story around one very single and basic truth that reads like a single traumatic event replaying itself endlessly.

  6. #286
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i have never seen so much self-inflicted damage in all my life. the only way i can enjoy this is if an awesomely cynical entp is marionetting all the actors on stage like puppets.

    it suffices to say i've met few intjs or enfps in real life who behave at all similarly to anyone in this thread. the individual understandings employed seem mostly harmful, with much condescension pointing in every direction and no humor to mediate it, nor to help diffuse individual desires that don't turn out the way they intend to satisfy themselves. and almost everyone in this thread obviously wants something, or has a bone to pick, or is rooting their behavior in an extremely obvious agenda. wrapping every element of every story around one very single and basic truth that reads like a single traumatic event replaying itself endlessly.
    You need a cup of tea.

  7. #287
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    You need a cup of tea.
    if you are offering, the answer is yes. i prefer herbal--ginger perhaps?

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i have never seen so much self-inflicted damage in all my life. the only way i can enjoy this is if an awesomely cynical entp is marionetting all the actors on stage like puppets.

    it suffices to say i've met few intjs or enfps in real life who behave at all similarly to anyone in this thread. the individual understandings employed seem mostly harmful, with much condescension pointing in every direction and no humor to mediate it, nor to help diffuse individual desires that don't turn out the way they intend to satisfy themselves. and almost everyone in this thread obviously wants something, or has a bone to pick, or is rooting their behavior in an extremely obvious agenda. wrapping every element of every story around one very single and basic truth that reads like a single traumatic event replaying itself endlessly.
    I can see that you're not a fan of Fi.

  9. #289
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    I have already made SO much progress with the moving on process, it seems too good to be true...I guess both knowing how horrible of a person my ex was and having fellow ENFPs hear the entire story and confirm her true intentions has been an IMMENSE help. A few of you even mentioned how an immature ENFP can so easily believe her own lies, and I've found that to be so true! Thank you guys so much. I owe my sanity to you guys
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #290
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    [FONT="Arial"]Um, wtf? There was no such claim. The truth is often much more complex than what Ni reveals; that was the claim.
    And I quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    [FONT="Arial"] A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.
    Either you're incapable of presenting the complexity in an understandable manner or you expect the complexity will be gleaned and your role as emotional director will be understood naturally. But where does that role come from, huh? And how is it expressed?

    Third of all, what's wrong with you? You are not interpreting anything I'm saying correctly; you're reading your own interpretation that's completely incorrect.
    Good luck with that. You believe in adapting to the moment but harbour inner convictions about what's right and wrong. Emergent leadership is necessary for the expression of your personality and its interaction with the world. Lying is one of the built in pitfalls.

    You're supposed to bring this stuff out of the shadows, not (just) finesse moments so that people move in the "right" direction.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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