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  1. #261
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Say what?

    I'm about to find that extraordinarily offensive and I might have an idea why. If you want to maintain a position where intuition is allowed to keep working and working and getting new opportunities and working and working and still finding new and newer things, fine. It is however endlessly dumb to cast other people as inadequate or misguided if they don't have to do the same thing before reaching appropriate insight.

    Preconceived notions? How about this one: "there's always more data to be found and it could change everything you know!" That preconceived notion is NP to the core, and isn't as automatically appropriate for use on an NJ as it is on an SJ.


    /rant.
    What? INTJs don't lie any less than any other type. They're not that emotionally aware and are thrown off by the more complex, emotionally charged language that I am fascinated by and find revelatory.

    They aren't honed or elegant emotionally because their 'tasks' aren't in the arena of profoundly understanding other human beings. So they choose to use this sort of black and white, direct, directive, chunky language because it's functional for them. And they convince themselves that only the emotions that they give merit to are worth giving merit to. A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.

    They convince themselves that their bluntness is from honesty, but it's not...they just don't have enough emotional nuance to operate under situations that are highly emotionally complicated. Maybe they just convince themselves that it stems from 'honesty' to make themselves feel better, maybe it's because they genuinely cannot comprehend that other people have vastly different (and equally or more legitimate and worthwhile motives) than them.

    I've SEEN INTJs LIE. They lie when their careers are in jeopardy or when they are on the brink of a big accomplishment. They start shutting down information about themselves that they don't want to know so that they can preserve the image of themselves that they want and get to goal X.

    What one type might consider a lie, another type might consider a crucially necessary invasion for their 'task.' What one type might consider 'honesty,' another type might consider un-evolved, primitive bluntness for the sake of self-preservation and not for the benefit of others. IT'S ALL RELATIVE.
    Last edited by Liesl; 07-03-2010 at 02:35 PM.

  2. #262
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I don't know. I'm the type to want to deal with relationship issues immediately and as openly as possible. My wife is as J as they come and is more likely to ignore them. Everyone in her family does this. Like they think there is no issue if you don't express it. They think it goes away when they ignore it. I don't think not dealing with relationship issues is a P thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    It is settled, then: it's just an invidual trait.
    It's not that it's a P thing, I guess. I immediately deal with "relationship issues." However, when it comes to LEAVING the relationship this is an entirely different matter.

    I will do ANYTHING under the sun to make the relationship work. But sometimes this isn't enough. It's not that I don't want to deal with even this issue. It's that I don't want to admit defeat or lop off my options.

    So I would say it is indeed an FP thing. Well put.

  3. #263
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    What? INTJs don't lie any less than any other type. They're not that emotionally aware and are thrown off by the more complex, emotionally charged language that I am fascinated by and find revelatory.

    They aren't honed or elegant emotionally because their 'tasks' aren't in the arena of profoundly understanding other human beings. So they choose to use this sort of black and white, direct, directive, chunky language because it's functional for them. And they convince themselves that only the emotions that they give merit to are worth giving merit to. A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.

    They convince themselves that their bluntness is from honesty, but it's not...they just don't have enough emotional nuance to operate under situations that are highly emotionally complicated. Maybe they just convince themselves that it stems from 'honesty' to make themselves feel better, maybe it's because they genuinely cannot comprehend that other people have vastly different (and equally or more legitimate and worthwhile motives) than them.

    I've SEEN INTJs LIE. They lie when their careers are in jeopardy or when they are on the brink of a big accomplishment. They start shutting down information about themselves that they don't want to know so that they can preserve the image of themselves that they want and get to goal X.

    What one type might consider a lie, another type might consider a crucially necessary invasion for their 'task.' What one type might consider 'honesty,' another type might consider un-evolved, primitive bluntness for the sake of self-preservation and not for the benefit of others. IT'S ALL RELATIVE.
    It's a feature of introverted perception that if the outer world is disordered, the inner world sheers away from its moorings. Thus, we, the INJs, have a certain hysterical attachment to having everything out there be true.

    The rest of what you said was weird and amounted to saying you know there are people not capable of the same level of emotional awareness, but you DON'T find ways to make that awareness accessible.

    See, outer objectivity, inner subjectivity means other people are supposed to say what's true if they want the best from us.



    And if they don't, we can lie to save ourselves.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #264
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's a feature of introverted perception that if the outer world is disordered, the inner world sheers away from its moorings. Thus, we, the INJs, have a certain hysterical attachment to having everything out there be true.

    The rest of what you said was weird and amounted to saying you know there are people not capable of the same level of emotional awareness, but you DON'T find ways to make that awareness accessible.

    See, outer objectivity, inner subjectivity means other people are supposed to say what's true if they want the best from us.



    And if they don't, we can lie to save ourselves.
    What do you mean 'make that awareness accessible'? It's something you have to develop for yourself if you want a place amongst people. And the last two things you said don't make any sense and seem to underscore the fact that you don't understand what I was saying.

    The point is that just because YOUR assessment of something is that it's false, that doesn't mean that it IS false. So, when you 'deprive' other people of the 'best of you' (HAH!), you are often depriving yourself of the real truth. That's the point. (So, what ends up happening is that someone says something that is true but is disruptive to your mental framework. You dismiss it, saying that it's 'a lie' and go back to thinking in your incorrect framework, convincing yourself that it's all their fault and that they were lying to you.)
    Last edited by Liesl; 07-03-2010 at 02:34 PM.

  5. #265
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    What? INTJs don't lie any less than any other type. They're not that emotionally aware and are thrown off by the more complex, emotionally charged language that I am fascinated by and find revelatory.

    They aren't honed or elegant emotionally because their 'tasks' aren't in the arena of profoundly understanding other human beings. So they choose to use this sort of black and white, direct, directive, chunky language because it's functional for them. And they convince themselves that only the emotions that they give merit to are worth giving merit to. A lot of what INTJs perceive as 'lies' are actually just complex truths that fly straight over their heads.

    They convince themselves that their bluntness is from honesty, but it's not...they just don't have enough emotional nuance to operate under situations that are highly emotionally complicated. Maybe they just convince themselves that it stems from 'honesty' to make themselves feel better, maybe it's because they genuinely cannot comprehend that other people have vastly different (and equally or more legitimate and worthwhile motives) than them.

    I've SEEN INTJs LIE. They lie when their careers are in jeopardy or when they are on the brink of a big accomplishment. They start shutting down information about themselves that they don't want to know so that they can preserve the image of themselves that they want and get to goal X.

    What one type might consider a lie, another type might consider a crucially necessary invasion for their 'task.' What one type might consider 'honesty,' another type might consider un-evolved, primitive bluntness for the sake of self-preservation and not for the benefit of others. IT'S ALL RELATIVE.
    Liesl...I understand there can be GOOD intentions behind white lies. However, when the intentions are selfish and a means to protect one's reputation or to save face...which has been MOST of the time in IME with ENFPs and which is the case for fecaleagle here, then there is no excuse. You HURT people with your omissions.

    It has nothing to do with depriving ourselves of the real truth or convincing ourselves that it's the other party's fault. I'm pretty self-aware of my faults and am quick to acknowledge them in a confrontation. This is where the INTJ honesty comes in.

    Im not talking about BLUNTNESS as truth....I am talking about the SIMPLE TRUTH. And I am not saying INTJs can't be liars, however, for the most part, you will find that we dislike beating around the bush and embellishing things. We rather have the ugly truth told to us AND say it too.

  6. #266
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    It seems like thescientist could have saved us all a lot of time and energy...
    Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

    ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

    I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs....

  7. #267
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

    ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

    I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs....
    There was a bit of sarcasm but I was also genuinely wondering why you didn't speak up sooner. It is easy to say "I knew this all along" when you wait until it is settled and done to chime in. You really might have been able to help fecaleagle figure things out sooner had you participated. Who knows.

    My apologies if you were helping him in private or something.

  8. #268
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    There was a bit of sarcasm but I was also genuinely wondering why you didn't speak up sooner. It is easy to say "I knew this all along" when you wait until it is settled and done to chime in. You really might have been able to help fecaleagle figure things out sooner had you participated. Who knows.

    My apologies if you were helping him in private or something.
    I was just hoping my Ni was wrong...I really was....

    Just like I hoped my Ni was wrong about my ENFP....I want to believe people are good and honest....

    I was that kid in school who always had a hunch for the right answer in class but never raised her hand for fear of being wrong...and my intuition was usually right...then I'd kick myself for not having raised my hand. I still do that in life to this very day. I just stay quiet and observe until events confirm my intuition :shrugs:

    When fecaleagle told me what happened through PM I instantly felt compelled to write about it...I dunno.

  9. #269
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Is that sarcasm? I cant tell online. :S I didnt jump in the thread to begin with because I'd sound like an ENFP hater again, especially because of my bad recent experience and all my other ENFP threads. Also because I have a stupid fear of being wrong so I wont say something until I'm 100% sure or it's already confirmed.

    ANYWAY, I just wanted to believe this situation was going to turn out differently...I really did.....I don't believe I have all the answers. I recognize that a lot of what I say in this thread is emotional and I hope most can pick up on it.

    I dont hate ENFPs...I fucking love you guys...and that's what scares the shit out of me. ENFPs live in a world of possibilities where nothing is decided or definite...How can an INTJ possibly be sure they're not just another possibility for the ENFP?? ....How do you know they just wont get tired of the relationship and bail out for supposed 'greener pastures'...It's like we're the ones constantly in the danger zone with ENFPs....
    You are hopeless. You have Ni, can't you freakin tell? If you ignore red flags you are only digging YOUR grave, no one else's. If an ENFP is consistent with you have no reason to doubt his/her feelings.

  10. #270
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    You are hopeless. You have Ni, can't you freakin tell? If you ignore red flags you are only digging YOUR grave, no one else's. If an ENFP is consistent with you have no reason to doubt his/her feelings.
    In fecaleagle's case you can argue that she had been consistent for 3 years...then what?

    FYI: I am not challenging you...I am simply rationalizing things in my head. The goal is understanding here for me.

    EDIT: Was thinking...Nothing is ever guranteed in relationships...my rationalizing is a moot point.

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