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  1. #251
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Another ENFP leaves YET ANOTHER INTJ in the dust...

    From personal experience, an INTJ's intuition is RARELY off about these things.

    From the beginning of this thread I KNEW and completely SENSED that the argument was just a scapegoat for her. Just a way out of the relationship without confronting.

    ENFPs will always try to get out the easy way. I had this ENFP tell me he had NEVER been the one to end any of his relationships...claiming that it wasnt easy. The ENFP is usually already DONE with a relationship mentally/emotionally long before the relationship actually ends. I cant say this about all ENFPs, but it's what I've learned from my experience.

    They are also very good at OMITTING details and claiming it as truth. White lies, bullshit...they're experts at this...which is such an irony, because INTJs are so horrible at this. We're honest to a fault...at least I am...I know no other way to live. I can't manipulate the truth or embellish it. IT IS WHAT IT IS.

    Reading your PM about her facebook account made me so angry. And what made me angrier was her response when you confronted her..Reminded me of MY confrontation with the ENFP....It's like I could never win...they find a way to bullshit through it all and make themselves seem like the good guy.

    My faith in ENFPs commitment to relationships is dwindling down the drain....Unfortunately, they're the type I'm consistently drawn to and really do bring out the best in me....when they're not lying and toying with others feelings.

    If this is her way of checking out if the grass is really greener on the other side and then coming back to you once she realizes it's not...I hope you have enough pride and dignity to move the hell on. Dont you even THINK about letting her back into your life.
    /END EMOTIONAL RANT

    DISCLAIMER: I realize not ALL ENFPs are like this. However, there seems to be a repeating pattern with many (perhaps the immature ones)...repetitive enough for me to believe a lot of it IS type related.
    You are right immature enfps do that. I'm sad any time I hear my enfp cohort hurt someone. I could never imagine us hurting people. But it seem like some of us (immature enfps) can do some real damage- I'm not without any fault because I hurt my ex. But if you meet a mature enfp- like some on here. They won't hurt you. We need to grow. One thing I can say about enfps, we learn from our mistakes- at least I do. I'll try my best to never make the same mistakes, twice.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

  2. #252
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Yes. This is true. But not because we want to hurt anyone or be dishonest, but because we can't bear the thought of hurting anyone or that our previous declarations of eternal love didn't turn out to be completely true. It's like it's super hard to give up our vision and to admit failure. Because that's how it feels for an ENFP who reaches the end of a relationship they've committed to.
    I can logically understand this, but I still can’t help but feel uneasy about it.

    Remember how different P and J are. I feel no compelling need to make decisions. I can let things hang in limbo far beyond the capacity of most INTJs. And, sometimes I have used this as a crutch for not facing things I don't want to face because they're painful, etc.
    Hmm… I certainly don’t have this problem, even when I am a strong Perceiver (something like 85%). The way I see it is: the faster relationship issues are dealt with, the better. And the best way to fix relationship issues is to be HONEST and EXPRESSIVE (so far, I’ve been very successful with my theory). I’ve seen how destructive the above behavior can get through my ENFP friend. I learned from her failures. Bingo!

    Perhaps what you talk about is more of an FP thing, not a TP thing?

    I think back to my past relationships. And, usually there is a moment that I know in my heart that some line has been crossed. But I'm so horrified by the failure, the hurt, and that I'm even considering bailing on the relationship, that I try to convince myself that I'm wrong. There must be another option to fix things that I hadn't considered. I lie to myself. And, then I pass on that lie to others.
    This is the biggest issue I had with my ENFP friend. I probably will never forgive her for that.

    I've gotten wayyyyyy better about not doing this, but it's taken a lot of practice and a lot of pain to learn to call myself on my own bullsh*t.
    I respect you heaps, Esoteric Wench.

    Is this dishonest? Well it's a gray area and it depends on how much spin is applied. I can tell you from my own struggles in this area, that it took me some life experience to realize that it was important for me to stop and reflect to make sure that I didn't omit pertinent facts. I realized (after some painful life experiences) that just because I didn't give a damn about all the details and just because I knew the entire story and was making an earnest effort to tell only pertinent details to be more efficient, that other people might interpret this as me lying or at least as acting in bad faith.
    Good analysis here.

    Finally, let me point out that just because INTJs believe they are "telling it like it is" doesn't mean that their stories are always 100%. I think INTJs have the flip side of the same problem ENFPs suffer. An INTJ may feel like they are sharing the complete fact pattern. And, I do believe they always try to share all the facts as they see them. However, INTJs have a habit of dismissing out of hand facts that do not match up with their preconceived notions on things. Thus, all the facts as the INTJ sees it, is sometimes a skewing of the truth because what the INTJ sees as irrelevant information has already been cast aside.
    Isn’t this universally true for ALL types, not just INTJ’s (unless one is deliberately being manipulative and leaving out important information)?

    Forget that I'm an ENFP. The ENFPs I've known have by and large been some of the most kind, friendly, fun, and lively people I've ever known. And, I can't think of a single one in my acquaintance that doesn't have what I would regard as a mature/highly-evolved ethical system.
    No offense, but that is not a very good argument. Your ENFP acquaintances hardly represent the whole ENFP population.

    I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. Sounds like fecaleagle's ex-girlfriend was making some dumb choices. But it's probably more complicated than a simple pat answer like ENFPs aren't committed to serious relationships. For example, she may have felt different ways in different situations.
    Yes, I agree with you.

    All ENFPs have chameleon like qualities. We can instantly and non-consciously tailor our approach to the people around us. What we sacrifice in consistency we (hopefully) make up for with our ability to adapt to a wide variety of people. So it's possible that his gf truly meant what she said about missing fecaleagle and about being excited about meeting other guys.
    I too actually think that she truly meant both things.

    What I would say to his girlfriend is that she has an ethical obligation to think through how such inconsistencies in her feelings will affect the people around her. Most ENFPs I know do this... but usually only after screwing up so badly from not doing this... that they firmly resolve never to make such a short-sighted error in judgment again.
    I’m glad to say that my ENFP friend is on this process of personal growth too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsimoan View Post
    One thing I can say about enfps, we learn from our mistakes- at least I do. I'll try my best to never make the same mistakes, twice.
    This is something I find REALLY admirable in ENFP's.

    I must say, mature ENFP's are da bomb.
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    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  3. #253
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    I can logically understand this, but I still can’t help but feel uneasy about it.



    Hmm… I certainly don’t have this problem, even when I am a strong Perceiver (something like 85%). The way I see it is: the faster relationship issues are dealt with, the better. And the best way to fix relationship issues is to be HONEST and EXPRESSIVE (so far, I’ve been very successful with my theory). I’ve seen how destructive the above behavior can get through my ENFP friend. I learned from her failures. Bingo!

    Perhaps what you talk about is more of an FP thing, not a TP thing?



    This is the biggest issue I had with my ENFP friend. I probably will never forgive her for that.



    I respect you heaps, Esoteric Wench.



    Good analysis here.



    Isn’t this universally true for ALL types, not just INTJ’s (unless one is deliberately being manipulative and leaving out important information)?



    No offense, but that is not a very good argument. Your ENFP acquaintances hardly represent the whole ENFP population.



    Yes, I agree with you.



    I too actually think that she truly meant both things.



    I’m glad to say that my ENFP friend is on this process of personal growth too.



    This is something I find REALLY admirable in ENFP's.

    I must say, mature ENFP's are da bomb. :wubbie
    :
    Time and experience are the words-the immature ones will get there too. I think every immature personality types leaves wounds- it's not just enfp things.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Forget that I'm an ENFP. The ENFPs I've known have by and large been some of the most kind, friendly, fun, and lively people I've ever known.
    I found this part a little strange. How on earth do these traits positively affect the ability to commit to a relationship? I'd say some of them are actually conducive to the opposite.

  5. #255
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Hmm… I certainly don’t have this problem, even when I am a strong Perceiver (something like 85%). The way I see it is: the faster relationship issues are dealt with, the better. And the best way to fix relationship issues is to be HONEST and EXPRESSIVE (so far, I’ve been very successful with my theory). I’ve seen how destructive the above behavior can get through my ENFP friend. I learned from her failures. Bingo!

    Perhaps what you talk about is more of an FP thing, not a TP thing?
    I don't know. I'm the type to want to deal with relationship issues immediately and as openly as possible. My wife is as J as they come and is more likely to ignore them. Everyone in her family does this. Like they think there is no issue if you don't express it. They think it goes away when they ignore it. I don't think not dealing with relationship issues is a P thing.

  6. #256
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Finally, let me point out that just because INTJs believe they are "telling it like it is" doesn't mean that their stories are always 100%. I think INTJs have the flip side of the same problem ENFPs suffer. An INTJ may feel like they are sharing the complete fact pattern. And, I do believe they always try to share all the facts as they see them. However, INTJs have a habit of dismissing out of hand facts that do not match up with their preconceived notions on things. Thus, all the facts as the INTJ sees it, is sometimes a skewing of the truth because what the INTJ sees as irrelevant information has already been cast aside.
    Say what?

    I'm about to find that extraordinarily offensive and I might have an idea why. If you want to maintain a position where intuition is allowed to keep working and working and getting new opportunities and working and working and still finding new and newer things, fine. It is however endlessly dumb to cast other people as inadequate or misguided if they don't have to do the same thing before reaching appropriate insight.

    Preconceived notions? How about this one: "there's always more data to be found and it could change everything you know!" That preconceived notion is NP to the core, and isn't as automatically appropriate for use on an NJ as it is on an SJ.


    /rant.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  7. #257
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I don't know. I'm the type to want to deal with relationship issues immediately and as openly as possible. My wife is as J as they come and is more likely to ignore them. Everyone in her family does this. Like they think there is no issue if you don't express it. They think it goes away when they ignore it. I don't think not dealing with relationship issues is a P thing.
    It is settled, then: it's just an invidual trait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Say what?

    I'm about to find that extraordinarily offensive and I might have an idea why. If you want to maintain a position where intuition is allowed to keep working and working and getting new opportunities and working and working and still finding new and newer things, fine. It is however endlessly dumb to cast other people as inadequate or misguided if they don't have to do the same thing before reaching appropriate insight.

    Preconceived notions? How about this one: "there's always more data to be found and it could change everything you know!" That preconceived notion is NP to the core, and isn't as automatically appropriate for use on an NJ as it is on an SJ.


    /rant.
    The first person I run to when I need some kickass advice is my INTJ friend.
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  8. #258
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I don't know. I'm the type to want to deal with relationship issues immediately and as openly as possible. My wife is as J as they come and is more likely to ignore them. Everyone in her family does this. Like they think there is no issue if you don't express it. They think it goes away when they ignore it. I don't think not dealing with relationship issues is a P thing.
    Yeah I have to agree that in my experience the tendency to want to swiftly and openly confront or avoid difficult topics is probably more of a cultural/micro-cultural thing than something related to personality.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #259
    Senior Member Ratsimoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalemate View Post
    I don't know. I'm the type to want to deal with relationship issues immediately and as openly as possible. My wife is as J as they come and is more likely to ignore them. Everyone in her family does this. Like they think there is no issue if you don't express it. They think it goes away when they ignore it. I don't think not dealing with relationship issues is a P thing.
    I feel the same way. I'm waiting for a relationship where we can be open and honest about our issues, even though it will hurt me- I'll cry but I'll get over it. Because I know it good for the relationship.
    [SIGPIC] [/SIGPIC]

    Death must be so beautiful. To lie in the soft brown earth, with the grasses waving above one's head, and listen to silence. To have no yesterday, and no to-morrow. To forget time, to forgive life, to be at peace."
    — Sylvia Plath (The Bell Jar)

    "Remember, remember, this is now, and now, and now. Live it, feel it, cling to it. I want to become acutely aware of all I’ve taken for granted."
    — Sylvia Plath

  10. #260
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsimoan View Post
    I feel the same way. I'm waiting for a relationship where we can be open and honest about our issues, even though it will hurt me- I'll cry but I'll get over it. Because I know it good for the relationship.


    I basically make my wife deal with it when I can tell something is wrong. (I know that sounds bad :p) And sometimes it even makes me cry, depending on what it is. She once in a while says she doesn't like telling me things because they upset me, but I think she has realized that it is good for me (and us) to just take it and process it and get it dealt with.

    If something is "wrong" I will know it even if I don't know specifically what it is. There is really no point in trying to ignore it.

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