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  1. #121
    THIS bitch stringstheory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    Interesting. Out of curiosity, do you really think that just because I didn't "get" that aspect of how she would react to something, that it's safe to say that I don't "get" her? That seems harsh because our connection is so strong and so deep, but of course not as deep as it can be. It's kind of like saying that she doesn't "get" me because she is taking my words so personally. I think that overall she "gets" me, and that I "get" her, but that we have so much left to learn about our intricacies.
    the way i saw it is this: we're always learning about people as we all have different sides that don't always come out in every circumstance (ie. we can appear to be very different people when we're in stressful situations). this situation is no different, you both just saw a side of each other I am guessing neither of you had seen in full force before. in this case, it was clear to me that you didn't "get" this side of her in this particular situation, and maybe the opposite was true for her. this side of people is always part of them so when you look at it this way it's not so much that you didn't "get" her before, you just might come out of this "getting" each other better now. it's not a bad thing, as you said we're always learning. "Getting" someone is a broad thing, as you said, this has just expanded your understanding, i think.

    From some of these posts, it seems like ENFPs can be really harsh, critical, and mistrustful on the inside, despite what they show on the surface to the ones they trust most Am I just misunderstanding?
    it's not so much that this is all brooding deep down while on the surface we sugarcoat it on the outside, but this happens sometimes when the worst of us is brought out...as in, when we have lost trust in someone that we likely idealized to some degree. I know for me i sometimes ignore the less positive aspects of my partner because, in a less stressed state of mind, they're not a big deal to me and i can be blinded by his more positive qualities. but when i became disillusioned with my partner during a rough period, you can bet i was suddenly blinded by is less positive qualities. It's a very extreme feeling, and a pretty scary one to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    It doesn't make it ANY less bad? I mean it was a terrible thing to do and her reaction is justified, but does my intent mean nothing at all?
    not right now, no. her intent didn't really appear to mean anything in the moment of your stress, in her eyes (which is understandable) so you need to respect that she might be feeling the same way. it might not be right but it is what it is.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    OH EM GEE THIS IS NOT A CONTEST. Stop playing tit for tat. You will not win. You may win the argument, but lose the girl.

    You might want to see the thread about when being logical doesn't make much sense. This is one of those times.
    I just want to make sure we build this relationship with mutual respect and no double standards. I realize that I was completely wrong, but I still need to be treated with respect and equality, no? Otherwise what is the point of the relationship. Jeez I am not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to fully understand where everyone is coming from and trying to apply that to my gf.
    Last edited by fecaleagle; 06-24-2010 at 02:52 PM. Reason: without=with

  3. #123
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    I just want to make sure we build this relationship without mutual respect and double standards. I realize that I was completely wrong, but I still need to be treated with respect and equality, no? Otherwise what is the point of the relationship. Jeez I am not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to fully understand where everyone is coming from and trying to apply that to my gf.
    I'm just trying to help you understand that it sounds like, "I know I did wrong, but you also did this wrong, so you are equally responsible here, etc." And really in this case, you are the wrong party. You really hurt her. I know you're trying to understand, but you're stuck on fairness.

    I think you just need to take responsibility here. Equality doesn't come into play. She's not treating you with disrespect. She's reacting to the fact that you hurt her deeply and seem to mainly be concerned with making sure she knows that you're not FULLY responsible, because you were just mad at the time. She's not punishing you--she just realizes you don't really get why what you did was not something that is easy to get over.

    I know it sounds harsh, but I'm just trying to convey it, NT-to-NT, in a way that boils it down to its essence. Not picking on you at all. I just think as long as you persist in your current line of thinking, you will not make any headway with this relationship.
    Something Witty

  4. #124
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    fecaleagle, I am not the only one who has notice that your words belie an unspoken (perhaps non-conscious) belief that your way (i.e., T) is superior to her way (F).

    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Fecaleagle you are making a terrible assumption, one that many intjs make. That other people are below them, in intellect, in the way they make decisions, in the cultural aspect and so on. You clearly need to get off the high horse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    This parent/child relationship between male INTJs and ENFPs chicks is getting sicker and sicker by the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by stringstheory View Post
    If you want to save this relationship you NEED to swallow your pride... you are still letting your pride get in your way. Stop it.
    Ohhh the memories of my INTJ…. He loved me soooo much… And, if you asked him, he’d tell you that he respected me, too. But his behavior didn’t always match his words. He loved that I could hold up my end of the conversation. He appreciated the pizzazz I brought to his life. But, he did NOT respect my Fi. On some level he thought it silly, childish, and desperately in need of a Te education. There was definitely a paternalistic/pedantic undertone in his dealings with me.

    Anytime I did something that he interpreted as my Fi “flying off the handle” he dismissed me. This quick dismissal of my input. This fundamental lack of respect for the way I prioritized things. This paternalistic attitude that came through when he corrected me for being overly emotional. Well, you should know that this is why my INTJ lost me. You should also know that I see you heading down the same path.

    While I think it is in an INTJ’s nature to be self-assured in whatever they do, do not let that J assuredness make you forget your own foibles. It’s not just that you, fecaleagle, don’t know it all. It’s that all people with your type, have predictable blind spots in their way of thinking. The INTJ is not the R-ight way. It’s just one of 16 equally valid ways of seeing the world.

    You have only one shot at not losing her forever... at least as this ENFP sees it:

    You can let her be your teacher in this matter. You can choose to see the unique / special / complementary gifts that your ENFP brings to your life… that all Fs (Fi’s) bring to people’s lives. If you do some hard soul-searching here, maybe you’ll come to appreciate that your ENFP has gifts that you can’t even begin to compete with. For example, no matter how mad she is at you, I doubt she’d ever make the boneheaded move you did in your original post. You can learn a lot from her in matters of the heart… if you allow yourself to be taught.

    So are you up for the challenge? INTJ enjoy intellectual exercises like solving puzzles. I applaud you for coming to this forum to try to understand what’s going on with your girlfriend. This is a good first step. And, somewhat of a challenge.

    But if you want to rise to the demands of an even bigger challenge, you will put away your INTJ self-assuredness and approach this situation with an intellectual humility that is probably very difficult for you.

    In other words, you are going to have to be intellectually vulnerable to her. This isn't about fair. This isn't about taking turns. Such things fall under the purview of Te. This is about letting her take the lead in this area. This is about your publicly recognizing that she is naturally more gifted in matters of the heart than you. And, then letting her teach you how to have a better heart.

    I don’t know if this is enough to keep her at this point. Too much damage may have already been done. But regardless, you will be a better man for it.

  5. #125
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    Thinking kills.

  6. #126
    Senior Member fecaleagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    fecaleagle, I am not the only one who has notice that your words belie an unspoken (perhaps non-conscious) belief that your way (i.e., T) is superior to her way (F).







    Ohhh the memories of my INTJ…. He loved me soooo much… And, if you asked him, he’d tell you that he respected me, too. But his behavior didn’t always match his words. He loved that I could hold up my end of the conversation. He appreciated the pizzazz I brought to his life. But, he did NOT respect my Fi. On some level he thought it silly, childish, and desperately in need of a Te education. There was definitely a paternalistic/pedantic undertone in his dealings with me. Anytime I did something that he interpreted at my Fi “flying off the handle” he dismissed me.

    You should know that this is why my INTJ lost me. You should also know that I see you heading down the same path.

    While I think it is in an INTJ’s nature to be self-assured in whatever they do, do not let that J assuredness make you forget your own foibles. It’s not just that you, fecaleagle, don’t know it all. It’s that all people with your type, have predictable blind spots in their way of thinking. The INTJ is not the R-ight way. It’s just one of 16 equally valid ways of seeing the world.

    You have only one shot at not losing her forever:

    You can let her be your teacher in this matter. You can choose to see the unique / special / complementary gifts that your ENFP brings to your life… that all Fs (Fi’s) bring to people’s lives. If you do some hard soul-searching here, maybe you’ll come to appreciate that your ENFP has gifts that you can’t even begin to compete with. For example, no matter how mad she is at you, I doubt she’d ever make the boneheaded move you did in your original post. You can learn a lot from her in matters of the heart… if you allow yourself to be taught.

    INTJ enjoy intellectual challenges. They enjoy figuring out puzzles. I applaud you for coming to this forum to try to understand what’s going on here. But if you want an even bigger challenge, you will put away your INTJ self-assuredness and approach this situation with an intellectual humility that is probably very difficult for you.

    In other words, you are going to have to be intellectually vulnerable to her.

    I don’t know if this is enough to keep her at this point. Too much damage may have already been done. But regardless, you will be a better man for it.
    Thank you for the post, but it seems more appropriate to be a few pages back. I already have realized all of what you said thanks to all of the helpful posts. I have surrendered my pride. I have made myself vulnerable to her. I have told her from the bottom of my heart how I take full responsibility for what I did, and I meant it. I did not portray in my last few posts that my logic and thinking are superior to her feeling and emotions. Sure I was attempting to use logic, but only to understand where SHE is coming from. I'm trying to understand what is going on in her head, that is all. I'm not discrediting it at all, and I'm sorry you got this impression.

  7. #127
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Let's ease up on him, people
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #128
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsimoan View Post
    For someone who doesn't want me to demonize them. Why say something like that
    Because if you are smart and impartial, you can see the juice in someone's argument without let provocation taint your judgement.

    Because just like "fuck you", it can have entirely different meanings depending on intent or depending when whether it's said jokingly or seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsimoan View Post
    Anyway, I'm tired. Nor do I feel like arguing because it's stupid. I wouldn't say you're a dick, except for the pair. You're right your comments will slide off my back not because I can't handle criticism but I don't think you're saying anything I need to hear.


    There is no need here. I don't know you from anywhere, I'm not a part of your life. You don't need to hear me. Yep, that's true enough. And because of that you can choose to take something from what I said or focus on my way of directing anger and getting people to rise up against what I think is unhealthy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratsimoan View Post
    I know you have good intention but the way offer criticism is very harsh- like a sharp knife entering into the heart.
    Criticism is always harsh. And yes, my way of being an ENFP champion is harsh, but that's how I grew up. It's my way of setting myself apart of the condescending position of the spokesperson who wants to CONVINCE you. I don't want to convince anyone. Certainly not via my charisma. I want people to read what I say and make up their own mind, without forming an opinion of me. The delivery doesn't void the validity of the content.

  9. #129
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    I just want to post something bolded to see how it feels.

    EDIT: meh

  10. #130
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fecaleagle View Post
    Thank you for the post, but it seems more appropriate to be a few pages back. I already have realized all of what you said thanks to all of the helpful posts. I have surrendered my pride. I have made myself vulnerable to her. I have told her from the bottom of my heart how I take full responsibility for what I did, and I meant it. I did not portray in my last few posts that my logic and thinking are superior to her feeling and emotions. Sure I was attempting to use logic, but only to understand where SHE is coming from. I'm trying to understand what is going on in her head, that is all. I'm not discrediting it at all, and I'm sorry you got this impression.
    I'm sorry if I'm repeating points already made. And, I do want to let you know that I think it's absolutely great that you have come to this forum and asked for input.



    I've tried to read every post in one sitting so if this question has been asked already, please forgive me for missing it...

    Have you thought about showing her this thread? If my bf showed me the marathon efforts he was putting into working things out.... well let's just say that my heart would instantly melt... and that somebody would probably be getting lucky.

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