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  1. #41
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    First of all, thank you so much to everyone; all of your responses were interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Another NT answer, if you don't mind

    I don't put my work first, but I do take work seriously (well, as much as I can take anything seriously ), which can include a large amount of overtime, plus I'm not big on outward displays of emotion, in particular vocal affirmations. Therefore, if someone was unsure where they stood with me I expect I would cause them much pain as unless I was aware of their uncertainty my being with them is proof enough in my mind of my interest and loyalty.

    It could be that those two guys you were seeing were tools, it could be that work was the most important thing for them, they may have been typical INTJs but I don't see work over relationships as a NT trait, for me family will always come first (I am a tad selfish though and I often put myself before that so long as there is no expense to them), thing is work is never more important, it just may appear that way.
    I totally understand where you are coming from. I get absorbed in my work too when something that's deeply important to me is going on. And there are certainly more times than I'd like to admit that I'm a bit neglectful of my relationships (a cancelled lunch date or an unreturned phone call) so that I can take care of things for myself (whether it's work-related or just to create some time in my day to catch up with my thoughts). Actually it also happens partially because I'm not always the most organized person, particularly when I'm under stress.

    That said, I am always there for the people that love me, whatever the cost is to myself, when they really need be to be there. That was the problem with the first guy. He was never there for me when it was important to me, but he never missed a beat of work. He did a thousand things to make me feel like I was an accessory that he would make time for if it behooved him, but that if he was doing stuff for work, it didn't matter if I was hit by a train or what was happening to me. It was like he was on an unstoppable roller coaster that was his working life, and if my wellbeing, my happiness, and my life had to be a casualty of his working life, that was sad to him in the most shallow of senses but completely necessary and justified. I don't know why it took me so long to leave him except that I adored him, that he was a lot more attentive when he was wooing me, and I kept thinking that I wasn't being articulate enough about my needs.

    It was a similar thing with the second guy, albeit toned down.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Yeah... asking to be placed ahead of an NTJs vision is like asking an NFP to put you before their values. Except choosing your values over a person doesn't seem to get any criticism.

    How did you decide that you weren't as important to them?
    Good question. See above. My question for you based on what've said here is:

    Are there types that are just almost always totally incompatible with each other? Or can any two types work out a relationship if they are self-actualized and emotionally skilled?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thessaly View Post
    I think this is one thing I really like about ENTPs: perspective. Having a purpose and vision to fulfill is important, but let's get real.; working is not THAT great.
    Exactly! I love ENTPs too; they can be driven to the point of a bit of hostility, but they get the big picture where people and the rest of the world matter. I think it's why I love Jimmy Kimmel so much out of all of the late night comedians.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    Liesl,

    I think when a person loves you, they include you in their life. It's when they find reasons to avoid spending time that I think they're dropping subtle hints or like the old saying goes: actions speak louder than words. They may not want to say it, but all else shows. Just like when people get all OCD about 'cleaning' or 'money,' it's a form of an escape from dealing with their own personal problems.

    We usually make time for those we care most about. When we don't, it's also a lack of regard, sometimes done unintentionally towards others like acquaintances or strangers.

    I think anyone who knows how to 'balance' their own lives is healthy to be in a relationship with. If they know how to treat themselves right, take care of what they need to do, and then tend to other aspects of their lives- it requires a large amount of 'consideration.' In doing so, they put in forth effort for both parties involved, vice versa. I dated an INTJ once who made it clear that he was serious. When he was at the start of his career, he wanted me to take part in it too.. so I think those guys were jerks. It's good- they did a favor. You sound like a cool cookie. If I were male, I'd date Liesl.
    I agree with everything you said here. When we care about someone, their happiness is important to us so we do things to meet their needs. And if we can't, then maybe we were never meant to be together in the first place. I'm glad you had a different experience with an INTJ! And as far as dating me if you were male: LOL, thank you and likewise.
    Last edited by Liesl; 07-03-2010 at 01:54 PM.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To those who have commented that they work to live (rather than live to work), or wish they didn't have to work: If you didn't have to work, or when away from work, what would you be doing??? Now, what if you could get paid to do that? For those fortunate enough to be paid to do what they would like to be doing anyway, "work" is more than just a means to a paycheck, it is a primary source of fulfillment and outlet for creativity.

    Some of the NT/NTJ commitment to work may be of this nature. It is for me, at any rate. I am not committed so much to a job as to a profession, a field of study. Pursuing this is not just earning pay, or satisfying a boss or workgroup, it is developing my talents, increasing my knowledge, and allowing me to contribute all of this to some worthwhile goal. As such, it ties in with the idea of personal development that others have mentioned.

    In this way, I do put my work on a par with relationships, and higher than most relationships, because it is tantamount to my own self-fulfillment. I am honest about this, though, and tend to have friends who hold a similar perspective. In practical terms we usually strike a decent balance, though, and often make more dependable friends and SO's than apparently more kind, gentle, and attentive sorts who fail to follow through when it counts. I agree that NTs, especially NTJs, tend to be like this, and as hybrid_rainbow wrote, trying to change it is "like trying to extinguish the soul of an INTJ." Better to leave us be, and just move on, for both our sakes.
    Thank you for this post, Coriolis. This was helpful for me because when I read it, I realized that I need to be in a relationship with someone who is most fulfilled by his relationship with me and not through anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Here's my 2 cents:

    I've had this issue with past girlfriends or even those I've dated. 2 NF's and 2 SF's come to mind. Here's what I couldn't get them to understand: I care about you deeply. I love you. You are very important to me. If you weren't, we wouldn't even be having a conversation like this. I wouldn't be spending this time with you right now. My career and what I'm pursuing in life are not *more important* than you, but it is still very important to me. Don't strip me of that.

    Here is the hard part for me: I recall specific discussions with an ENFP and an ISFP where I told them that if I was to spend the amount of time with them that they wanted me to, then I wouldn't even have enough time to hold down a job. I'd just be at home with them all the time or going to lunches and dinners and movies and this's and that's. I might as well just quit my job right now and just walk right by your side, all day, every day. If we get married, we won't have any income, because I'll just be at home with you all day working on relationship stuff and nurturing you. That just doesn't sound appealing to me. They would both want to *skip work* to spend time together - like all the time. I mean, I get the idea of it - we enjoy each other's company and we want to be together. But, to consistently be able to do this = does not compute to the NT. I can't "bring home the bacon" and pursue my passion yet still spend 24 hours a day with you.

    The woman I care about is a HUGE part of my life. I'd do just about anything for her! But, my passions in life are important to me as well. Why, oh why, cannot these 2 things co-exist?

    The object of NF's affection is usually people/relationships. NT's, on the other hand, get much satisfaction from "designing" *things* (not people). Creating a business, pursuing a cause, etc, etc. When we engage in these things and dedicate ourselves to a given pursuit, it does NOT (necessarily) mean that we don't love the person we are with. We're just doing what comes naturally to us. And hopefully we are grateful and don't take it for granted that we are fortunate enough to have a woman/parnter who accepts and understands this. That is, if she's able to accept and understand it.
    This I really understand. I don't see why the two things can't coexist either, except perhaps in very unusual situations like crises where you might have to choose one over the other for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Well said.

    An E/INTJ works to accomplish his/her vision upon the world. It's not our jobs, or even our career that we want to succeed. It's our vision.

    If we put you above that, you may safely assume that you are one of the privileged few.
    Actually, I could say something similar myself. My visions for the world and my work and my relationships are all deeply intertwined and are...the reason for my sheer existence, as far as I'm concerned. Only the people I love get to share that with me on a daily basis and I'm not going to stop in my tracks for just anybody.

  3. #43
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    [FONT="Cambria"]Actually, I could say something similar myself. My visions for the world and my work and my relationships are all deeply intertwined and are...the reason for my sheer existence, as far as I'm concerned. Only the people I love get to share that with me on a daily basis and I'm not going to stop in my tracks for just anybody.
    Which is why I'm thinking it's less of a type issue, and has more to do with a difference in individual values in the previously mentioned cases.
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    Which is why I'm thinking it's less of a type issue, and has more to do with a difference in individual values in the previously mentioned cases.
    It's not one or the other. It's partially a type issue because...well, borrowing a concept from Socionics, every type has a 'task,' that they set about fulfilling in the world. Whether or not we view relationships as essential to fulfilling that task and WHAT relationships we view as essential are partially related to type and partially related to various other factors: life experiences, individual values, current emotional state, etc. It's not an issue that can be boiled down to a black and white answer, which is why every input to this thread is a helpful additional perspective.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Liesl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    yes. and sp first accepts more distance--is more insulated and self-sufficient.

    i identify with the complaint made against intjs to some degree (for myself). in fact, on the contrary to the claim about it being nt specific--my intj s.o. seems to prioritize the life partner relationship higher than i do (tho she's a 6w7 vs my 5w4). my highest focus is self-actualization and my own personal enlightenment. and finding a way to express this in its most complete and intense articulation. relationships are very important to me, and i definitely feel more in need of deeply searching, stirring, and profound connection with others more so than most nt types. but i don't take for granted that life partner is goal number one---although i'm learning what its real value is in a better way than i've ever known it before.

    also--it's good to keep in mind that e5 types have boundary issues. istp and intp, i generally find, have the most difficulty feeling emotions. intjs have the most difficulty expressing their emotions. and infjs have the most difficult recognizing their emotions/owning them in a way that helps determine what is personally true for them. these avenues for e5 expression create a big avoidance of feeling in the moment when it feels like it requires action, decision, openness, etc. bc we can so easily feel overwhelmed, our wills, by the desires of others (ie responding to an i love you, talk about the future, prove it to me demands, etc).

    the at times emotional unavailability of an e5 has to do with refocusing and re-centering one's own will and then also protecting one's mental independence.

    Just to be clear, this thread wasn't meant to be a complaint against INTJs but an exploration of what happens when NFs get into relationships with them, either in general or in specific cases. I also want to say that I am suggesting possibilities for the purpose of exploring them and not making claims about any type!

    But it was interesting when you said that INFJs have the most difficulty 'recognizing their emotions and owning them in a way that helps determine what is personally true for them.' So, sort of on a side note, are you saying that INFJs recognize emotions within themselves and in others but are more interested in adapting them to social situations than in determining what those feelings say about their own personal values?

  6. #46
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I do notice some NTs putting their personal interests ahead of family, friends and relatitonships. It may not be their literal job, but it is a "work" of some kind (as noted, NTPs may not be "ambitious" when it comes to career). I probably do not have the right to criticize that because I don't really put relationships first either. I tend to put my own interests/passions as priority, and relationships either happen along with them or they don't. I tend to have the attitude that if I am spending time with someone regularly then they should know that means I value them, because I value my time/energy A LOT. I am not one to offer verbal affirmation much, and it has been detrimental to my relationships.

    I get compared a lot to my INTP uncle because of this.... I don't take it as a compliment though, and I now make effort to combat that tendency, because I do see it as selfish. Relationships don't form and grow in a neat & tidy manner, and adjustments and sacrifices may be necessary. I guess the difference is, I don't make excuses for less than positive behavior in this area where many NTs do. In that way, they seem more idealistic - there's an unrealistic idea of how things should be.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #47
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Yeah... asking to be placed ahead of an NTJs vision is like asking an NFP to put you before their values.
    I really liked this. Thought it summed up the issue quite nicely.

  8. #48
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    It's not one or the other. It's partially a type issue because...well, borrowing a concept from Socionics, every type has a 'task,' that they set about fulfilling in the world. Whether or not we view relationships as essential to fulfilling that task and WHAT relationships we view as essential are partially related to type and partially related to various other factors: life experiences, individual values, current emotional state, etc. It's not an issue that can be boiled down to a black and white answer, which is why every input to this thread is a helpful additional perspective.
    Right, I didn't mean to give the impression that it was an either-or scenario. I was implying that the other variables you mentioned may add yet another useful vantage point. Which I can see you understand.
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  9. #49
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't mind being responsible for everything except taking out the trash and mowing the grass if he's working five fourteen hour days and I'm not working. I do mind it when I'm working or he's working 40 hours or less.
    I just noticed this.

    If I recall correctly, you mentioned being a homemaker and homeschooling your children. This seems like significant work to me, especially if it includes "everything except taking out the trash and mowing the grass".

  10. #50
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    Hrm, this thread has been slightly eye-opening. I've yet another flaw to work on.

    Edit: Hilarious. I just realized that I've truly comitted the OP's crime before. It's mostly why my previous relationship ended.

    Chucklechuckle.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
    A sort I could become accustomed to...



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