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  1. #31
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    putting work before other things is stupid imo, you work so that you can get money and live better, live more freely and have more options on what to do with your life.
    Whats the point of working if you dont do the work to make your life better?

    I think everything in life is finding the right balance between things. If you lean too much on the other side, youll lose the balance and fall there in that direction, going further away from other stuff..
    ^^^^^^^^^^

    I agree with INTP. B-A-L-A-N-C-E. Wisdom in terms of MBTI is about balancing the cards you were dealt and the cards you choose to play. Understanding the box you were born into and not let it limiting you too much.

    So let me back pedal a little bit.

    While all things being equal, I do think an INFJ is a better fit for me.... I'd take, in a New York minute, an INTJ who had balance in their life over a run-of-the-mill INFJ if he

    - knew how to compensate for his weaknesses, and
    - understood how to leverage his strengths.

    INTJs and INFJs are both rare. But finding a self-actualized person (regardless of type) is rarest of all.

  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    To those who have commented that they work to live (rather than live to work), or wish they didn't have to work: If you didn't have to work, or when away from work, what would you be doing??? Now, what if you could get paid to do that? For those fortunate enough to be paid to do what they would like to be doing anyway, "work" is more than just a means to a paycheck, it is a primary source of fulfillment and outlet for creativity.

    Some of the NT/NTJ commitment to work may be of this nature. It is for me, at any rate. I am not committed so much to a job as to a profession, a field of study. Pursuing this is not just earning pay, or satisfying a boss or workgroup, it is developing my talents, increasing my knowledge, and allowing me to contribute all of this to some worthwhile goal. As such, it ties in with the idea of personal development that others have mentioned.

    In this way, I do put my work on a par with relationships, and higher than most relationships, because it is tantamount to my own self-fulfillment. I am honest about this, though, and tend to have friends who hold a similar perspective. In practical terms we usually strike a decent balance, though, and often make more dependable friends and SO's than apparently more kind, gentle, and attentive sorts who fail to follow through when it counts. I agree that NTs, especially NTJs, tend to be like this, and as hybrid_rainbow wrote, trying to change it is "like trying to extinguish the soul of an INTJ." Better to leave us be, and just move on, for both our sakes.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Here's my 2 cents:

    I've had this issue with past girlfriends or even those I've dated. 2 NF's and 2 SF's come to mind. Here's what I couldn't get them to understand: I care about you deeply. I love you. You are very important to me. If you weren't, we wouldn't even be having a conversation like this. I wouldn't be spending this time with you right now. My career and what I'm pursuing in life are not *more important* than you, but it is still very important to me. Don't strip me of that.

    Here is the hard part for me: I recall specific discussions with an ENFP and an ISFP where I told them that if I was to spend the amount of time with them that they wanted me to, then I wouldn't even have enough time to hold down a job. I'd just be at home with them all the time or going to lunches and dinners and movies and this's and that's. I might as well just quit my job right now and just walk right by your side, all day, every day. If we get married, we won't have any income, because I'll just be at home with you all day working on relationship stuff and nurturing you. That just doesn't sound appealing to me. They would both want to *skip work* to spend time together - like all the time. I mean, I get the idea of it - we enjoy each other's company and we want to be together. But, to consistently be able to do this = does not compute to the NT. I can't "bring home the bacon" and pursue my passion yet still spend 24 hours a day with you.

    The woman I care about is a HUGE part of my life. I'd do just about anything for her! But, my passions in life are important to me as well. Why, oh why, cannot these 2 things co-exist?

    The object of NF's affection is usually people/relationships. NT's, on the other hand, get much satisfaction from "designing" *things* (not people). Creating a business, pursuing a cause, etc, etc. When we engage in these things and dedicate ourselves to a given pursuit, it does NOT (necessarily) mean that we don't love the person we are with. We're just doing what comes naturally to us. And hopefully we are grateful and don't take it for granted that we are fortunate enough to have a woman/parnter who accepts and understands this. That is, if she's able to accept and understand it.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #34
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Personally, I've been happier with my husband working more hours than when he was working fewer. It's not because I don't enjoy his company, because I do. The thing is, when he is home a lot, I expect him to do domestic stuff around the house and that turns out not to be his thing so I get frustrated. I don't mind being responsible for everything except taking out the trash and mowing the grass if he's working five fourteen hour days and I'm not working. I do mind it when I'm working or he's working 40 hours or less.

    Also I like money and I don't really want to get a job, so he has to work a lot and I appreciate him doing it because I know it's not fun.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  5. #35
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To those who have commented that they work to live (rather than live to work), or wish they didn't have to work: If you didn't have to work, or when away from work, what would you be doing??? Now, what if you could get paid to do that? For those fortunate enough to be paid to do what they would like to be doing anyway, "work" is more than just a means to a paycheck, it is a primary source of fulfillment and outlet for creativity.

    Some of the NT/NTJ commitment to work may be of this nature. It is for me, at any rate. I am not committed so much to a job as to a profession, a field of study. Pursuing this is not just earning pay, or satisfying a boss or workgroup, it is developing my talents, increasing my knowledge, and allowing me to contribute all of this to some worthwhile goal. As such, it ties in with the idea of personal development that others have mentioned.

    In this way, I do put my work on a par with relationships, and higher than most relationships, because it is tantamount to my own self-fulfillment. I am honest about this, though, and tend to have friends who hold a similar perspective. In practical terms we usually strike a decent balance, though, and often make more dependable friends and SO's than apparently more kind, gentle, and attentive sorts who fail to follow through when it counts. I agree that NTs, especially NTJs, tend to be like this, and as hybrid_rainbow wrote, trying to change it is "like trying to extinguish the soul of an INTJ." Better to leave us be, and just move on, for both our sakes.
    Well said.

    An E/INTJ works to accomplish his/her vision upon the world. It's not our jobs, or even our career that we want to succeed. It's our vision.

    If we put you above that, you may safely assume that you are one of the privileged few.
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  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think my NF and I are over.

    It was an interesting experiment, and I'm not adverse to repeating it.

    The biggest difference at the end was that I tend to operate more from what makes sense and whether or not in the big picture everything fits together and we can make things work now (and it just seems that right now is not a good time for either of us, regardless of how we feel, and any relationship now is sort of hobbled anyway, with no promise of a workable future)... whereas he was more about deciding what he wanted and dragging himself over broken glass to try to make something with lots of contradictions work if possible. Lack of love had little to do with it ending, we just approach relationships differently.

    I noticed that with an FJ in my past too. I wonder how much desire/duty drives F's relationally. I always end up not feeling worthy of their passion or loyalty.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #37
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ...he was more about deciding what he wanted and dragging himself over broken glass to try to make something...
    Great analogy. I commend people for this unwavering approach. It's just that - well, these relationships sometimes end up feeling like both people are literally being dragged over broken glass. And that's just not fun. For anyone.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kra View Post
    An E/INTJ works to accomplish his/her vision upon the world. It's not our jobs, or even our career that we want to succeed. It's our vision.

    If we put you above that, you may safely assume that you are one of the privileged few.
    Yeah... asking to be placed ahead of an NTJs vision is like asking an NFP to put you before their values. Except choosing your values over a person doesn't seem to get any criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liesl View Post
    [FONT="Cambria"]I've been in a couple of relationships with NT men, and they ended when I realized that I would never be as important to them in the long term as their careers.
    How did you decide that you weren't as important to them?

  9. #39
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think my NF and I are over.

    It was an interesting experiment, and I'm not adverse to repeating it.

    The biggest difference at the end was that I tend to operate more from what makes sense and whether or not in the big picture everything fits together and we can make things work now (and it just seems that right now is not a good time for either of us, regardless of how we feel, and any relationship now is sort of hobbled anyway, with no promise of a workable future)... whereas he was more about deciding what he wanted and dragging himself over broken glass to try to make something with lots of contradictions work if possible. Lack of love had little to do with it ending, we just approach relationships differently.

    I noticed that with an FJ in my past too. I wonder how much desire/duty drives F's relationally. I always end up not feeling worthy of their passion or loyalty.
    It's stuff like this that make me question being F. Relationally, I think I approach things much moreso as you describe yourself than how you describe the NF's. Perhaps it's the enneagram 5.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  10. #40
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    It's stuff like this that make me question being F. Relationally, I think I approach things much moreso as you describe yourself than how you describe the NF's. Perhaps it's the enneagram 5.
    yes. and sp first accepts more distance--is more insulated and self-sufficient.

    i identify with the complaint made against intjs to some degree (for myself). in fact, on the contrary to the claim about it being nt specific--my intj s.o. seems to prioritize the life partner relationship higher than i do (tho she's a 6w7 vs my 5w4). my highest focus is self-actualization and my own personal enlightenment. and finding a way to express this in its most complete and intense articulation. relationships are very important to me, and i definitely feel more in need of deeply searching, stirring, and profound connection with others more so than most nt types. but i don't take for granted that life partner is goal number one---although i'm learning what its real value is in a better way than i've ever known it before.

    also--it's good to keep in mind that e5 types have boundary issues. istp and intp, i generally find, have the most difficulty feeling emotions. intjs have the most difficulty expressing their emotions. and infjs have the most difficult recognizing their emotions/owning them in a way that helps determine what is personally true for them. these avenues for e5 expression create a big avoidance of feeling in the moment when it feels like it requires action, decision, openness, etc. bc we can so easily feel overwhelmed, our wills, by the desires of others (ie responding to an i love you, talk about the future, prove it to me demands, etc).

    the at times emotional unavailability of an e5 has to do with refocusing and re-centering one's own will and then also protecting one's mental independence.
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