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  1. #21
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    If you think it's because an ENFJ "lacks impersonal structure" or whatever nonsense was flying out of your friend's mouth, you are mistaken.
    If the people who are not showing up lack the passion to be in that orchestra, then you know what?
    They shouldn't be there.
    That's what I think, too. As long as we're not referring to a job (thus, an activity where hours spent practicing means higher salary), then people need to have intrinsic motivation (i.e. enjoy doing it) in order feel the need for practice. I personally think the problem lies in the selection process - teacher should ask potential students if they're committed to show up for long hours of practice, and enlist exclusively those that agree.

    People in high school do lack integrity, so that’s why this is the best approach to take.
    What exactly does it mean? Is integrity a quality that magically appears when a certain pre-set universal age X has been reached?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #22
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Mmmm, and it's not like you can get the kids that do stick to the rules to gang up on them? Peer pressure from one person is nothing...but when an entire group chews you out for disrupting the practice..it might just help.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    They just don’t care.
    Then accept it. Do you want people to be something they are not?
    If they don't care, they shouldn't be there to begin with.
    This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

    I don't agree with any of the tactics you pulled on the students.
    You want to control people by penalizing them.
    So if they all show up because you threatened them, you think that's a success?

    That's utter failure.

    There's a difference between developing the natural potential in people, and beating them over the head with a mallet of fear, to do something they don't want to do.
    Those who choose the latter approach do not have other people's best interests at heart. They have only their own.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Whose responsibility is it to show up for practice? Yours.
    Don't blame the ENFJ-or anyone- for your own shortcomings.
    It lacks integrity.
    Agree, especially if the "you" is meant as a "general you"


    though the "F style manager" probably tends to want to bend over backwards trying to motivate people to get to practice, get to meetings, get work done on time, and so on.. treating it as somewhat of a personal failure if he believes that he's not providing the proper motivation

    At least, that tends to be my mindset

  5. #25

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    If something seems out of place, first question is "what's wrong?" eg. You didn't turn up to training, is everything good still? (without emo guilt trip, or end of world philosophies) First step to solving a problem is understanding it, so you may as well get the understanding and show some care at the same time. If it is recoverable and they seem to genuinely want in, motivate them to continue. If they seem like they want out, help them make the best choice. Meeting people as humans gives and commands more respect than fear or authority ever will. And is more pleasant and productive also.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  6. #26
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I personally think the problem lies in the selection process - teacher should ask potential students if they're committed to show up for long hours of practice, and enlist exclusively those that agree.
    She does do this (asking potential students if they're committed to show up for long hours of practice). People do agree to show up. They just don't afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    What exactly does it mean? Is integrity a quality that magically appears when a certain pre-set universal age X has been reached?
    I think he/she meant to say that generally speaking, integrity is hard to find in high school kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Mmmm, and it's not like you can get the kids that do stick to the rules to gang up on them? Peer pressure from one person is nothing...but when an entire group chews you out for disrupting the practice..it might just help.
    Kids that do stick to the rules are the minority here. And the majority group is quite huge...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Then accept it. Do you want people to be something they are not?
    If they don't care, they shouldn't be there to begin with.
    This is not a difficult concept to grasp.
    I do understand what you are saying, and I agree with you, but kicking people out is not an option right now.

    I know people aren't what I want them to be. I wish they had more integrity, but they don't. I accept that. But even if I can't change what they are, I think there are feasible methods to change their behavior for the betterment of the group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I don't agree with any of the tactics you pulled on the students.
    You want to control people by penalizing them.
    I say carrots AND sticks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    So if they all show up because you threatened them, you think that's a success?
    It's not threatening, it's penalizing. Sure, you can feel threatened by the prospect of being penalized. But that's another thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    There's a difference between developing the natural potential in people, and beating them over the head with a mallet of fear, to do something they don't want to do.
    It's hardly fear, at least in this case. Also, why do you think parents penalize their own children? "Beating [kids] over the head with a mallet of fear, to do something [the kids] don't want to do" is absolutely necessary sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Eyebrows View Post
    though the "F style manager" probably tends to want to bend over backwards trying to motivate people to get to practice, get to meetings, get work done on time, and so on.. treating it as somewhat of a personal failure if he believes that he's not providing the proper motivation

    At least, that tends to be my mindset
    I'm having a little trouble understanding what you mean because of the gerund. But if you're saying what I think you meant to say, then I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    If something seems out of place, first question is "what's wrong?" eg. You didn't turn up to training, is everything good still? (without emo guilt trip, or end of world philosophies) First step to solving a problem is understanding it, so you may as well get the understanding and show some care at the same time.
    I think I understand the cause of this problem pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    If it is recoverable and they seem to genuinely want in, motivate them to continue. If they seem like they want out, help them make the best choice.
    Thing is, people DO want to be in the orchestra because it looks good on their resume. But they do not want to come to practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Meeting people as humans gives and commands more respect than fear or authority ever will. And is more pleasant and productive also.
    I'll think about that.
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