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  1. #11
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    For me, Fi is about what is Right (with a capital R). It transcends social norms. Let me repeat this because this is the heart of the matter. Fi for me is about finding the essence of Rightness. This is the primordial Right that social norms grew out of, but they are only a reflection of the principles that I seek to guide my behavior.

    .....

    Perhaps, if I had auxillary Fe instead of Fi, I would have privately seethed but decided to not rock the boat by confronting him. Or, maybe I would have doorslammed him. But my Fi finds these choices a bit “little picture.” Afterall, my Fi is concerned with the underlying truths of the social norms that so inform Fe. So in this respect, social norms are only a point of reference for me.

    After much reflection, I decided that a bigger moral issue was at stake than not rocking the boat. This gave me the self-assuredness to point out his transgressions to him… social norms be damned.
    It's funny, to my Fe- finding what is "Right", looking for One Truth- is what seems "little picture" to me. It isn't a matter of adhering to social norms; it's a matter of recognizing there is no single Right, no single One Truth- and trying to discern if there's some reason why my subjective truths should matter more than my neighbor's subjective truths. The one single underlying truth is that there is never one single underlying truth.

    edit: I realize this^ is because the Fe is intermingled with Ni.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #12
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey Z Buck - I completely identify with your reactions. My problem with doing that only comes in when the person does other stuff later that is a problem. Then the previous incidents that I dismissed as insignificant in light of more information get brought up again and the person feels I am hanging onto a bunch of little insignificant things or that if there was a problem I should have dealt with it sooner before I felt really resentful. Unfortunately, it is difficult to make the call of when that should be because it is only in response to new information and an overall picture forming that the inconsiderateness is an overarching issue rather than an isolated incident that it becomes a real problem. Any ideas for how you make that call? I found especially in a relationship with the ESTJ who dealt with most things internally, it caused a lot of problems. I waited until I was sure something was truly a problem and when it was finally brought up, the communication was immediately shut down or the problem remained unresolved. Then any subsequent issue that reflected the same underlying cause had lots of residual gas to fuel the fire.

  3. #13
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    To the OP,

    it looks as if your little 'experiment' (calling the police instead of talking to the parents first) set in motion a whole chain of events! Let's see... If you had talked to the parents first, would they have flatly denied their children/grandchildren were responsible? That is a possibility.

    But, you called the police and suddenly that made the matter (child's carelessness) became "very official".

    I think that I can relate to calling the police too... Over the top, IMHO, but I can relate to its very 'detached and neutral way' of dealing with the situation. You don't get to go on the neighbors turf but they have to come on yours! Am I right?

    The grandparent was probably taking this as an opportunity to teach the children to be a bit more responsible - as in, 'look we JUST moved in and you just HAD to break the neighbor's stuff!'

    About your reaction when you saw them measuring your door -

    I would have done the exact same thing. The empathy thing - argh - once I can "read" the person's anguish or whatever, that immediately makes me put my preferences aside to try to soothe their anguish - yea, going from annoyance to 'no big deal' in a snap.

    But for that reaction to happen, I have to get the gut feeling that the other party is really, really sincere... (refer to another thread where the INFJs express annoyance that people don't simply 'fess up' but attempt to 'justify' themselves, thus provoking a doorslam)

    And I think that in this situation, I would have read it like I think you did too: Decent grandpa is teaching the grandson the consequences of his carelessness/rash actions and on 'living well with neighbors'. And I would have wanted to reassure them too and say, 'look, it's no big deal, it's JUST a broken window. Once it's repaired, it will look like nothing bad happened'...

    So in conclusion, the setting aside of a privilege or a right (to privacy, time alone, no phone calls or no callers after 9 pm, whatever) is really contingent upon who is making demands on that privilege/right and/or how it is done.

    Sorry, I cannot discourse on Fi verses Fe, etc. This is just to say that yea, I can totally relate.

  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    I honestly don't really get mad, I may have twinge of it, or feel annoyance or be offended, but it never never lasts. It never seems like a big deal. In your OP I would have picked up on your neighbors discomfort and my feelings of discomfort would immediately have been taken over by his. My own tend to dissipate, upon the discomfort of another. Not always, I am sure, but for the most part. It is like I am looking at the situation from a removed perspective, and I am far enough away, that I don't personally get upset.. I don't even know if that makes sense. Hmmm...

    Exactly. It’s like suddenly my own feelings are just one piece of a bigger picture- no more or less important than someone else’s.

    edit: And it happens the moment I'm actually dealing with the other person. Just... *snap* and my feelings are a smaller part of a bigger whole, like I'm seeing it from the outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outsider View Post
    Though it seems that your initial reaction is a lot more severe than mine. I wouldn't even think of calling the police.
    Calling the police was really more a logical choice than something done out of anger. It’s not really an important aspect of this scenario, I could have easily left it out. It’s just that I really couldn’t be less intimidating in person. Plus, I hadn’t met these people yet, so I had no idea how they’d react. Calling the police was just the ‘easy’ way to get them to stop- and in quiet suburbs like this, it’s kind of what the police are there for anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Who's to say how I would have handled it for sure. But I think I might have felt empathy for the transgressing neighbors, gently told them that they needed to respect my space, and then proceeded to laugh and talk with them about whatever came to mind.
    This is what I’m looking for. Thanks. This is helpful. I want to try to work something like this more into the ‘automatic thoughts’ that happen when I get really annoyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    Back to the cognitive crucibles INFJs experience:

    I think that Fe might sometimes cause the INFJ to shut down their anger prematurely. Or perhaps said in a better way, it acts as a pressure valve the prevents the INFJ from releasing pressure in a more adaptive way. Thus, sometimes, the INFJ let's the anger/resentment/<insert whatever uncomfortable emotion here> to the point that suddenly Fe is overrun and Ti kicks in.

    Ti is the INFJ's tertiary process. Introverted Thinking is about analyzing, categorizing, and evaluating according to principles. For example, "Was this the correct thing to do given the facts of the situation?" And, I think this is the third step Bucky Z McFate went through which is in part why he posted his ruminations here.

    Someone on this forum once wrote that our tertiary function operated like an emergency switch that was not consciously controlled. In other words, the tertiary function is either on or off. And, you don't have complete control on flipping that switch. I thought this brilliantly described how Te (my tertiary function) worked for me. And, this explanation goes a long way in elucidating an INFJ's decision to doorslam somebody.

    Introverted thinking is an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. If Ti kicks in for an INFJ, and they judge that a person needs to be put in the "keep at arms length" category or the "doorslamming category" then that's exactly where the INFJ puts them quickly and decisively. Afterward, when Ni or Fe is in charge again, the INFJ may agonize over their decision because Ne or Fe would have taken a very different approach than tertiary Ti did. Here again, we see that for the INFJ, their individuals functions within the INFJ's hierarchy of functions pull the INFJ in very different directions.

    I’m going to have to chew on this awhile. Also: I’m going to need you to stop calling me Bucky.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 05-28-2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason: to add
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey Z Buck - I completely identify with your reactions. My problem with doing that only comes in when the person does other stuff later that is a problem. Then the previous incidents that I dismissed as insignificant in light of more information get brought up again and the person feels I am hanging onto a bunch of little insignificant things or that if there was a problem I should have dealt with it sooner before I felt really resentful. Unfortunately, it is difficult to make the call of when that should be because it is only in response to new information and an overall picture forming that the inconsiderateness is an overarching issue rather than an isolated incident that it becomes a real problem. Any ideas for how you make that call? I found especially in a relationship with the ESTJ who dealt with most things internally, it caused a lot of problems. I waited until I was sure something was truly a problem and when it was finally brought up, the communication was immediately shut down or the problem remained unresolved. Then any subsequent issue that reflected the same underlying cause had lots of residual gas to fuel the fire.
    I can totally relate to the parts of Fidelia's post, which I have bolded. Having lived through similar experiences, I think that if I were Buck Z My Fate, here's the 'post window pane' scenario that I would stick to:

    Once the broken glass is repaired, say thanks and keep it "formal" (after all, the police was called right?)

    Smile briefly but rather formally when the door is finally repaired and say bye but don't overdo the "I am a nice neighbor and really, no big deal, kids will be kids, accidents happen" reassurance speech...

    Be courteous, civil but not overly friendly. Then forget them for a while!

    Give yourself and the neighbors plenty of time to become friends, years if necessary- that way you don't come across as one big pushover or doormat - which we easily give that vibe off, I think... Enjoy being the enigmatic neighbor - it works better this way! Someone wrote on a thread about keeping people in the acquaintance zone for very long before moving them to the friend zone. In this case, I'd suggest keeping the communication style firmly in the 'neighbor and nothing more' zone for a comfortable amount of time before upgrading if ever, to the 'acquaintance and occasional help' zone.

    Example: you said you are a private person? If you live alone, this means that you might be called upon to "babysit" one kid or the other later on. Try to avoid that chore! You might do it out of a desire to smoothen things with the grandpa later but then, this later could cause problems. Your privacy thing versus them thinking they could call upon you to help out, etc. Therefore, don't be too friendly, too fast. It helps to turn off the mobile phone from time to time, and just be unavailable. A one-off help is ok but don't set yourself up that it becomes a habit for them to solicit your time + privacy.

    That's what I would do, if I were in your shoes.

  6. #16
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey Z Buck - I completely identify with your reactions. My problem with doing that only comes in when the person does other stuff later that is a problem. Then the previous incidents that I dismissed as insignificant in light of more information get brought up again and the person feels I am hanging onto a bunch of little insignificant things or that if there was a problem I should have dealt with it sooner before I felt really resentful. Unfortunately, it is difficult to make the call of when that should be because it is only in response to new information and an overall picture forming that the inconsiderateness is an overarching issue rather than an isolated incident that it becomes a real problem. Any ideas for how you make that call? I found especially in a relationship with the ESTJ who dealt with most things internally, it caused a lot of problems. I waited until I was sure something was truly a problem and when it was finally brought up, the communication was immediately shut down or the problem remained unresolved. Then any subsequent issue that reflected the same underlying cause had lots of residual gas to fuel the fire.
    Exactly.

    I'm asking how others react to feeling annoyed because I'm trying to reshape my own initial reactions to 'new information'. I hate that "I should have dealt with this sooner" feeling. I'm trying to figure out how to give my annoyance more weight in the first place. And the only thing I can think of is to get opinions of how others would have reacted differently- so I can pick and choose pieces to incorporate into my own automatic reactions. I'm having trouble coming up with how- to give my annoyance more weight- on my own.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #17
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immaculate Cloud View Post
    Give yourself and the neighbors plenty of time to become friends, years if necessary- that way you don't come across as one big pushover or doormat - which we easily give that vibe off, I think... Enjoy being the enigmatic neighbor - it works better this way! Someone wrote on a thread about keeping people in the acquaintance zone for very long before moving them to the friend zone. In this case, I'd suggest keeping the communication style firmly in the 'neighbor and nothing more' zone for a comfortable amount of time before upgrading if ever, to the 'acquaintance and occasional help' zone.
    This might sound overly cold, but I'm really not looking for any kind of friendship with the neighbors. I probably care less than I should about what my neighbors think of me, which is why I didn't think twice about calling the police to solve the 'kids throwing stuff' problem. Truly. I mean, I'm never blatantly rude or anything, but I absolutely never go out of my way to show friendship because I'm not interested. I don't like that it may sound elitest, but I just don't like wasting time on 'friendly behavior' with people who bore me. I'm not disrespectful to them, just incredibly, incredibly aloof.

    Thank you for the advice though, it was thoughtful of you.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    This might sound overly cold, but I'm really not looking for any kind of friendship with the neighbors. I probably care less than I should about what my neighbors think of me, which is why I didn't think twice about calling the police to solve the 'kids throwing stuff' problem. Truly. I mean, I'm never blatantly rude or anything, but I absolutely never go out of my way to show friendship because I'm not interested. I don't like that it may sound elitest, but I just don't like wasting time on 'friendly behavior' with people who bore me. I'm not disrespectful to them, just incredibly, incredibly aloof.

    Thank you for the advice though, it was thoughtful of you.
    Wow, that aloof?

    Me, I have gone of my way and invested much time and effort into a few friendships...I guess not all INFJ are that deliberate then.

  9. #19
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    esoteric- I'm a 'she'. Just for the record. I posted this^ without seeing the inbetween posts yet, I'll get back to them soon.
    Sorry about that. I'll go back and fix now.

  10. #20
    Professional Trickster Esoteric Wench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'm really not looking for any kind of friendship with the neighbors. I just don't like wasting time on 'friendly behavior' with people who bore me. I'm not disrespectful to them, just incredibly, incredibly aloof.
    Wow! It is shocking to me to hear such a statement from an INFJ. It sounds unnecessarily separatist/elitist no matter how many "I'm not blatantly rudes" dress it up. Z Buck McFate, perhaps you are engaging in an overly Directive style of communications. (Check out a great summary about this here.)

    Extreme directive communications can be interpreted as rude... oftentimes to the INFJ's surprise who thinks they were just being efficiently straightforward. For example, I think this kind of attitude is very off-putting to most other Fs in general and this ENFP in particular...

    I'm forced to quote from my own post in the other thread. Even though I'm talking about doorslamming, I think the same principle can be applied to cutting off relationships before they ever begin. This is another kind of doorslamming that I find troublesome because it never even gives the other person a chance. It seems like the most basic human decency you can give another person is to judge that person based on your interactions with them and NOT based on preconceived notions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Esoteric Wench View Post
    An unhealthy/immature INFJ may engage in doorslamming in maladaptive ways... When cutting off contact with another person becomes an easy answer to the complicated process INFJs must undergo to process incoming information and navigate discomfort in their relationships.

    I read once that Introverted Intuition is akin to a framework for understanding. Every time new information comes into the INFJ’s psyche, they must reprocess the entire framework to incorporate the new information. This is a very laborious process. Thus, to conserve mental energy, INFJs will sometimes dismiss new information if they judge it’s a rehashing of something they've processed previously. If the INFJ isn’t careful, they will fall into the trap of dismissing outside input too readily.

    In other words, some INFJs use Fe to serve the needs of Ni by rejecting new information. A more healthy, balanced approach would be for Fe to judge whether or not the INFJ's framework is still valid given the new information coming in. This takes more mental work, but it is critical for a healthy INFJ.

    An INFJ who uses their Fe to serve the needs of their Ni, rather than to check its excesses, will be rigid in their life stance. Such an INFJ may come off as opinionated, dismissive, snobbish, or arrogant. These INFJs see only what they want to see and are sorely lacking in humility.
    I have to wonder if you, Z Buck McFate, have ever considered that your neighbors may have something to offer you that you have not yet considered and could not anticipate? It seems like you have already decided (after one weekend) that these people are boring. You might be right. But, you can't know for sure after one weekend. No one could. So perhaps you are jumping to conclusions too quickly. Doesn't everyone have something to offer?

    I gently suggest that perhaps you might be happier if you adopted a more open stance to meeting new people.

    Do you think that your Fe is being used to support your preconceived notions or are you using Fe to make sure that your framework of understanding reflects that latest facts you took in and thus you'll need a rethink.

    Seems like if you reflected on the fact that you don't know everything, and that no matter how good your gut feelings about people are that you're sometimes wrong, then you would be forced to hold your judgment open for a longer period of time than one weekend.

    I'm just sayin'...

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