[INFJ] INTJ puzzled by INFJ

[LinearOrbit]

I think that the part of the INTJ description - "... relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel." - is uncomfortably close for me. Many of my friends are still optimistic about me, but honestly, I've always been single (I'm 27); I have a cyclical pattern when it comes to women, and I don't actually see this changing in the foreseeable future.

It goes like this:

1. I get interested in dating someone roughly every 2-3 years
2. I lose my ability to think properly whenever she's around
3. Fi demands that until I'm sane again, I don't embarrass the living heck out of myself and make a horrible impression or make her life unpleasant by interacting with her
4. I fade completely into the background while trying to master the basics of speech
5. After several months, I manage to approach her, and completely over-do things (after all, at this stage, she'll barely know me, while I'll be 2 IQ points away from a discouraging medical diagnosis)
6. She politely declines any of my suggestions (coffee, etc.)
7. I back away, and after a few months of much soul-searching, work out some new details of what I should have done differently
8. Wash, rinse, repeat

Obviously those are some very wide brush-strokes, but broadly speaking that's the backdrop here, and this time around (I'm on step 7 right now) the person in question is an INFJ (very introverted, graphic designer, tons of Ni, and this deft/rich Fe that comes out occasionally, etc.). She's a sister of a friend of mine, but the only time we're ever around each other is once a week at church. I had asked her out for coffee, she'd said she'd think about it, but really, that was a no. Not wanting to give up quite so easily, I followed up with some stuff on Facebook, she replied cautiously, and then when I didn't get to speak to her the following week my Fi lost the plot entirely, and I posted a long message saying just how I felt (yes, yes, I know! ). And she replied saying that she simply wasn't interested (to which I replied roughly with "thanks for being honest, I'll leave you alone, should I move to Canada?").

The upshot of honesty is that it let me get over it all and move on - but there were still one or two questions I wanted answered, and in the name of closure, I sent her an email, pretty much a "Hi, how are you? Look, I'm still a little puzzled, and it's frustrating me, what did I miss?" kind of thing. But a few days after that, I had the "Aha!" breakthrough I needed (the rules and nuances of Fe are _not_ obvious ), preceding her reply later on, that she felt totally apathetic towards me, that relationships aren't transactional, that she didn't even want a friendship with me, she could see I wasn't a bad person, but that I had to move on.

So I spelt things out honestly and openly:

You can relax. I've done all that. Yes, it was a weird way to work through things, but I got there in the end, and seeing as how no one else - including you - was involved in this, that's what matters.

I didn't get there until after my email, but at some point during last week I finally clicked. (Let me take the time to note here that - this email aside - there's nothing else for me to say to you now.) I finally realized how some people - like you - see their social roles, etc, and it makes it all work properly.

Initially, I really wasn't sure what you were rejecting. I know I made a lousy first impression - you do this thing where you tune into the other person's mind, and so do I, and it ended up being a completely unexpected kind of "echo-room of silence" in my head whenever I thought about you, which was phenomenally difficult to get to the bottom of. (As you'll know, with the right person, that can be quite a trip, but that's just a fairly pointless side-note here.)

Anyway, between those two points, it all fits/makes sense - now that I actually get it, it's straightforward; your rejection remains firmly complete. No worries. I have my understanding, and with it, closure. There's no conflict, nor bothersome thoughts left to figure out. I never spent time trying to find out much about you, because there's only pain to be had that way if it didn't work out. So thankfully there's very little to leave behind... and I'm pretty sure you'll continue to be unaffected.

Last point, for completeness: you can try to sound as unattractive as possible to put me off "And I dont think i want you to get to know me. I'm really not that interesting."- don't worry, your disinterest was sufficient - but I know exactly what the good parts that I was looking at were. You were wrong there.

Bear in mind that up until this point we'd had very little contact indeed - perhaps three or four brief conversations to go with the contact mentioned here. I'd found my closure, and I figured it was a simple case of both of us reverting to being entirely disinterested in the other person any more: that's simple and tidy.

Except NOW she's paying attention to me. Before all this, we were unlikely to ever have said a word to each other. But at subsequent wedding we were both at, she walked up as I was chatting to her brother and I could feel her 'feelers' reaching out to gauge me (and hit a wall). And we happened to be at a party subsequently, and she specifically came up to give a cat I was holding a stroke, and said goodbye to me afterwards (previously we wouldn't even have done that). And I've noticed her looking at me several times since then, but mostly it's that very subtle kind of attention, where you simply keep track of the other person.

I really want to put the whole situation firmly behind me, and I believe the complete apathy about me that she described, but I find someone noticing me is very distracting. (I don't even think it's particularly fair of her to show any interest now!) Mostly though, it just gives rise to the question of "Huh?". Can someone who know how any of this lot works clue me in?

 

[Phantonym]

Well, you say that it's very distracting when someone notices you. That's exactly how she must have felt when you approached her. The thought of you being interested in her and vice versa hadn't probably crossed her mind, the apathy she felt towards you was due to not really "seeing" you (I hope this makes sense) while you had everything worked out, silently, all along. At the time, probably the best course of action she felt had to be done was to decline. Now that she's had some time to think about it, you are on her "orbit", she might see some possibilities that weren't visible before (like friendship). You being honest and open about this whole matter has been a big plus. While you have seemingly reached closure, it might not be so for her.

 

[nonsequitur]

Except NOW she's paying attention to me. Before all this, we were unlikely to ever have said a word to each other. But at subsequent wedding we were both at, she walked up as I was chatting to her brother and I could feel her 'feelers' reaching out to gauge me (and hit a wall). And we happened to be at a party subsequently, and she specifically came up to give a cat I was holding a stroke, and said goodbye to me afterwards (previously we wouldn't even have done that). And I've noticed her looking at me several times since then, but mostly it's that very subtle kind of attention, where you simply keep track of the other person.

I really want to put the whole situation firmly behind me, and I believe the complete apathy about me that she described, but I find someone noticing me is very distracting. (I don't even think it's particularly fair of her to show any interest now!) Mostly though, it just gives rise to the question of "Huh?". Can someone who know how any of this lot works clue me in?

I personally think it's a "no hard feelings" thing. Now that you're avoiding her, I think she's trying to let you know that it's not necessary by initiating some form of contact, even if it's a basic "goodbye".

As an INTJ I understand wanting to put the situation behind you, but I think with said INFJ you've got the order of actions entirely wrong. Instead of spilling your guts in a Darcy-ish "You must allow me to tell you how much I love and adore you" way after a few coffee invitations where she turned you down (probably because she knows nothing about you), perhaps what you should've done (and what you could still do) is just let the relationship organically grow from friendship. Maybe that's what she's looking for now. To see if you could become friends first, maybe something else later. Of course, you shouldn't expect that it's the case. If she's just looking to get to know you better as a person and be friends (despite what she says), you'll have to decide if that's what you want.

*edited to add that if I, an INJ female, had been approached by someone whom I hadn't had much contact with before for dates/coffee, and then had a confession foisted on me, my immediate reaction would've been "how do you like me? do you even know me? what a creep." - with the regret coming later if I realised later that they were not insane stalkers, but genuine, sincere (but emotionally stunted) people.

 

[Immaculate Cloud]

You meet her once a week in church? Fine then, be more active in the youth group or whatever social activities there are in your church. I mean, if you are asked to do the reading or whatever in church one sunday, surely, you won't lose the 'basics of speech' will you?

Just act normal. Don't fade into the background. And please don't put her or any other woman on a pedestal!

 

[Immaculate Cloud]

Instead of spilling your guts in a Darcy-ish "You must allow me to tell you how much I love and adore you" .

LOLLLLL

 

[Immaculate Cloud]

You forgot to add "most ardently"... ROFL

 

[Phantonym]

*edited to add that if I, an INJ female, had been approached by someone whom I hadn't had much contact with before for dates/coffee, and then had a confession foisted on me, my immediate reaction would've been "how do you like me? do you even know me? what a creep." - with the regret coming later if I realised later that they were not insane stalkers, but genuine, sincere (but emotionally stunted) people.

Agreed.

Also, excellent way to refer to Darcy.

 

[LinearOrbit]

Well, you say that it's very distracting when someone notices you. That's exactly how she must have felt when you approached her. The thought of you being interested in her and vice versa hadn't probably crossed her mind, the apathy she felt towards you was due to not really "seeing" you (I hope this makes sense) while you had everything worked out, silently, all along. At the time, probably the best course of action she felt had to be done was to decline. Now that she's had some time to think about it, you are on her "orbit", she might see some possibilities that weren't visible before (like friendship). You being honest and open about this whole matter has been a big plus. While you have seemingly reached closure, it might not be so for her.

Thanks, Sky, I appreciate your insight. That's roughly one of the options I've been considering, but it's nice to hear it from someone else.

Just act normal. Don't fade into the background. And please don't put her or any other woman on a pedestal!

It's valid advice.

I personally think it's a "no hard feelings" thing. Now that you're avoiding her, I think she's trying to let you know that it's not necessary by initiating some form of contact, even if it's a basic "goodbye".

*edited to add that if I, an INJ female, had been approached by someone whom I hadn't had much contact with before for dates/coffee, and then had a confession foisted on me, my immediate reaction would've been "how do you like me? do you even know me? what a creep." - with the regret coming later if I realised later that they were not insane stalkers, but genuine, sincere (but emotionally stunted) people.

I would be happy with the "no had feelings line" if it was simply a goodbye and a few other low-key interactions, except it's not - it's her more general attention that's tripping me up.

I'll note that she and I have different circles of friends, so simply going around like I would if she didn't exist doesn't really change anything, or help resolve the situation (I'm really not avoiding her - I'm not doing anything really, except noticing that she's noticing me, and feeling that I ought to be doing something, one way or the other).

The stalker line is completely understandable - no arguments there! On the emotionally-stunted point, well, fair enough. I think I get some parts right, but there's no denying that I also get a fairly pivotal segment very, very wrong.

On that note, rather than making things unpleasant for her, I'm asking "why can't we all just walk away?" And I was well on my way until she turned around and started to pay attention. I guess I want to write this lot off because I really find it tricky to imagine a happier ending than that neutral option.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

I'm wondering if she feels bad for ignoring you and thinks that perhaps you'd feel better if you were given at least some acknowledgment. Or it could be that she's watching how you respond with her to get an idea if you're still interested in her.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Instead of spilling your guts in a Darcy-ish "You must allow me to tell you how much I love and adore you" way.

Oh. My. God. I laughed soooo hard when I read this. I've seen it all. An INTJ making an allusion to Jane Austen. RIGHT ON!

 

[Dali]

LOL. You INJ ladies are quite the comedians.

To OP: I have nothing to add other than I agree with the person who said that it seems most likely that she was trying to rekindle/initiate a friendship and indicate, through her actions, that there were no hard feelings. Of course, I could be mistaken.

p.s. As a fellow male Fi user, I complete identify with the 'Darcy bit'.

 

[ThatGirl]

INTJs, lol, you guys are so cute.

 

[Rainne]

Impulse man, impulse.

 

[uumlau]

To the OP:

You are only lacking one thing: social experience. You need to get to know people more superficially.

Yes, I know. INTJs don't play that tune.

But that's exactly what you missed. That's the root cause of everything you're doing wrong.

It's all about making connections with other people. They start out small, always. Some just fizzle, some grow a bit but no more. Others grow exponentially in surprising ways.

Your mistake with the INFJ is simple: you should have offered her a small cup of the water of your emotions (i.e., let her know that you are interested in her, and perhaps do something that would allow you to get to know each other better), but instead you pulled out a fire hose and drenched her with your infatuated love.

The other mistake that INTJs often make is that we tend to be so unaware of our feelings, we only become aware after they're really strong, long past the point where they are within our ability to handle. This is where socializing and making friends in general comes in. By understanding the different levels of connection, it will gradually become more and more obvious to you what you're really looking for. You'll learn to deal with your emotions while they're still small, before they explode every 2 years or so.

It is all of the lesser, "superficial" connections you'll make that will teach you what the strong connection really feels like.

No, no, I'm not some sort of alien INTJ ... I was just as awkward as you, when I was your age. I didn't really learn this stuff until I was over 40. If you learn it now, you'll be much further along that I, much earlier in your life.

 

[Kra]

When Fi is running wild, I've found that the best thing to do is exactly what Fi is trying to avoid. That is compromising with Te. Te is definitely more likely to take a concrete action that will at least leave you results, rather than just theories.

If you ever have a thought that starts with, "Common sense dictates...," you should probably go with that over the "What if..." that Ni-Fi loves entirely too much for its own good.

Never think that you have to isolate someone in order to talk to them, or get to know them better. They are certainly less likely to be intimidated in a group setting anyway.

 

[LinearOrbit]

As an INTJ I understand wanting to put the situation behind you, but I think with said INFJ you've got the order of actions entirely wrong. Instead of spilling your guts in a Darcy-ish "You must allow me to tell you how much I love and adore you" way after a few coffee invitations where she turned you down (probably because she knows nothing about you), perhaps what you should've done (and what you could still do) is just let the relationship organically grow from friendship. Maybe that's what she's looking for now. To see if you could become friends first, maybe something else later. Of course, you shouldn't expect that it's the case. If she's just looking to get to know you better as a person and be friends (despite what she says), you'll have to decide if that's what you want.

I couldn't really laugh at the Darcy characterization at first - it was simply accurate !

If there had ever been some vaguely apparent way of initiating a simple friendship first, I would have gone for it instead. But if there is no social over-lap (different sets of friends, etc.), then at some point, you're basically left with the cold sell: 'Hey, I'm interested in us getting to know each other - are you up for that?" - and if you're not a good salesperson, then the odds dip (or plunge ).

But thanks - she is trying to get to know me better. Although I'm not sure why, and I haven't worked anything out past that point.

I'm wondering if she feels bad for ignoring you and thinks that perhaps you'd feel better if you were given at least some acknowledgment. Or it could be that she's watching how you respond with her to get an idea if you're still interested in her.

Her interest is broader than that. I was once talking to someone and she happened to be walking past me from the side. Not knowing it was her, the movement caught my eye - I glanced suddenly in her direction and she started - with social (and not personal) embarrassment: she had been focusing on me for the last several steps.

p.s. As a fellow male Fi user, I complete identify with the 'Darcy bit'.

Thanks. This stuff makes me wish it was in a curriculum somewhere...

INTJs, lol, you guys are so cute.

Anyway, the general consensus here is along the lines of "I can see you're not a psycho now. If you like, we can talk." Without that perspective, I just want the nicest way of us getting back to nothing. With it, I don't know anymore.

 

[LinearOrbit]

You are only lacking one thing: social experience. You need to get to know people more superficially.
[...]
Your mistake with the INFJ is simple: you should have offered her a small cup of the water of your emotions (i.e., let her know that you are interested in her, and perhaps do something that would allow you to get to know each other better), but instead you pulled out a fire hose and drenched her with your infatuated love.

Sigh - yes, of course that's it. This whole "socializing has merit in and of itself" has dawned on me really late in life. Doctors have morbidity and mortality conferences, I have this :rolli:

The other mistake that INTJs often make is that we tend to be so unaware of our feelings, we only become aware after they're really strong, long past the point where they are within our ability to handle. This is where socializing and making friends in general comes in. By understanding the different levels of connection, it will gradually become more and more obvious to you what you're really looking for. You'll learn to deal with your emotions while they're still small, before they explode every 2 years or so.

I wish it was that simple. I can see the emotions as they happen, I just can't stop them (and they work overtime thanks to Ni). The best I could manage at that stage was to ask her out for coffee (having a specific goal in mind makes it easier to have a conversation when there's this continual sensation of shell-shock as you speak to contend with (it wasn't quite "I Tarzan, you Jane", but that's a low bar)), and it was downhill from there.

If you learn it now, you'll be much further along that I, much earlier in your life.

I hear what you're saying; it's certainly something I want to get better at!

When Fi is running wild, I've found that the best thing to do is exactly what Fi is trying to avoid. That is compromising with Te. Te is definitely more likely to take a concrete action that will at least leave you results, rather than just theories.
[...]
Never think that you have to isolate someone in order to talk to them, or get to know them better. They are certainly less likely to be intimidated in a group setting anyway.

My Te sucks at small-talk (not enough social experience). Really, with friends, I use far more Ni/Fi to see what they care about; my Te really only has sharp teeth .

I've never thought of the group dynamic like that before - that's really good!

Thanks - both of you - these new angles, and what to focus on is useful. But that still leaves me with an INFJ I don't know how to deal with.

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

What to do with an INFJ? (Besides baking them into a pie)

My advice would be to be friendly. To add people to our social network we, even as introverts, do what extroverts do. We do not kidnap random strangers off the street and force them into our private worlds (if only we could), but go out and meet new people in social activities. Extroverts do the same, just more of it whereas introverts prefer to build our connections with pre-existing friendships.

I would suggest finding an activity you and her (possibly church related? but I don't know anything about either of you except what was said in thread) like that can be done with your friends and then ask her to come along. If you can't think of any activities you both share, then think of one you and your friends like and invite her. At worst you'll have a fun activity you and your friends can do.

(After writing this post I noticed I had skipped Kra's post when I had read the thread. Nonetheless my post is sort of the same just more details on the Kra's last sentence.)

Why do you feel you have to do something in the first place? My assumption is that you still want a happier ending than you foresee. If not, why do you care what she does? She will either become a friend of yours or fade back out into neutrality.

I (INFJ male) pay extra attention to those who are interested in me with no mutual feelings on my part. I don't want them to feel through my actions that I'm avoiding them, but I don't want to encourage their infatuation either. You might be misinterpreting her attention for something more (or you might not).

Sorry if anything I said above seems snippy, it wasn't meant to be and if it offended you, I apologize.

 

[LinearOrbit]

Sorry if anything I said above seems snippy, it wasn't meant to be and if it offended you, I apologize.

Don't worry, if there's any possible way for me to find offense with what you said, I'm not seeing it . I obviously keep in mind the fact that you're looking at a heavily distilled summary of the situation; at the end of the day, I'm looking for your insight and advice so I can work things out for myself.

We do not kidnap random strangers off the street and force them into our private worlds (if only we could)

Why not? That would be very practical

My advice would be to be friendly.
[...]
I would suggest finding an activity you and her (possibly church related? but I don't know anything about either of you except what was said in thread) like that can be done with your friends and then ask her to come along. If you can't think of any activities you both share, then think of one you and your friends like and invite her. At worst you'll have a fun activity you and your friends can do.

It's a bigger gulf than that. She and I really have no common ground at this stage.

Why do you feel you have to do something in the first place? My assumption is that you still want a happier ending than you foresee. If not, why do you care what she does? She will either become a friend of yours or fade back out into neutrality.

That's a fair starting point. If you're saying I can simply leave the ball in her court like this to make any move, without causing offense, and if she isn't interested in doing that, this will all go away? Excellent! Would I like a happy ending instead? Sure. But mostly I'm done with the risk-taking and wishful thinking here. I really would like to get to the end.

What uumlau said about needing to get to know people more superficially has since dawned on me as being fairly profound, and it really goes to the heart of it all. As an introvert, I only ever aim for depth in relationships, and not everyone wants that, nor is it always appropriate (of course, it's most noticable right after Fi kicks my legs out from under me )

 

[RushAndAPush]

Don't worry, if there's any possible way for me to find offense with what you said, I'm not seeing it . I obviously keep in mind the fact that you're looking at a heavily distilled summary of the situation; at the end of the day, I'm looking for your insight and advice so I can work things out for myself.



Why not? That would be very practical



It's a bigger gulf than that. She and I really have no common ground at this stage.



That's a fair starting point. If you're saying I can simply leave the ball in her court like this to make any move, without causing offense, and if she isn't interested in doing that, this will all go away? Excellent! Would I like a happy ending instead? Sure. But mostly I'm done with the risk-taking and wishful thinking here. I really would like to get to the end.

What uumlau said about needing to get to know people more superficially has since dawned on me as being fairly profound, and it really goes to the heart of it all. As an introvert, I only ever aim for depth in relationships, and not everyone wants that, nor is it always appropriate (of course, it's most noticable right after Fi kicks my legs out from under me )

Seriously it sucks going for an extrovert. (Not saying they have no emotional depth)