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  1. #1
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    Default Extroverts managing Introverts (long-skip if you must)

    Anyone ever read the book "Managing Einstein" by - forgot who.

    Recently, an extroverted friend ( ENFP ) asked me for a big favor. In short, to do the grunt work for her and then IF it works, I shall get paid a share.

    I did not say a flat out no but wanted to show her how to do it herself but she refused citing the fact that she was very busy and had more interesting things to do and I could do it more efficiently, etc, etc.

    The long and short of it was that "I" "did not understand", that "I" "could earn some extra money this way, that she has already made a deal with her company if I were to do it freelance, they'd pay me, etc.

    So after much thinking, I am finding without much shock that though I enjoy the company of this extrovert as a buddy/friend, doing business with that person may/ will change the dynamics too much and introduce more of a employer-employee or big boss-worker dynamic. And I don't think that I can handle that. In my experience, family and/or friends do not mix well with business.

    My solution in those cases often is to show them how to do something and let them run with it. I teach them freely and then it is up to them what they do or don't do with it. But here, I met with a flat refusal to even want to learn..."I am not interested but you can do it more efficiently", etc. I am perplexed and rather disappointed. And yea, I am a bit hurt too that the things that I do well are met with such disdain. ( Useful but not fun. Got more interesting things to do. )

    The nagging questions are:

    Why are the extroverts in my life always telling me what to do?
    I need a few stock phrases to be able to say no without ruffling their feathers.
    I don't want to get to the point where I need to door-slam to make them understand that though I am willing to help, I will not be treated as a convenient friend.
    Do they (be honest, extroverts!) consider us as convenient?

  2. #2
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immaculate Cloud View Post
    Why are the extroverts in my life always telling me what to do?
    Why do you feel that the extroverts in your life are always telling you what to do?

    Do they (be honest, extroverts!) consider us as convenient?
    Some people are convenient, sure, but that's not the normal basis of a friendship.

    Personally I think INFJs often have to do a proper door-slam when they feel friendships are not even or they are being used. Think it's healthy, but the divide isn't extrovert vs introvert, it's people who value you for who you are vs those who consider you convenient or would use you.

  3. #3

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    I'm definitely not trying to attack you, but why do you feel being used? She offered you a deal. If you're not interested, you wouldn't break any obligation if you declined it.

    Did she really ask you for a favor, or is that just your interpretation based on a friendly way in which you two communicate? If she really did, that's nothing unusual among friends regardless of I/E, and it's up to you how much you value your friendship. On the other hand, she should be aware of the fact, that you getting the job is not a pay-off. It's just your favor she'd be owing you, even if you get paid by her company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immaculate Cloud View Post
    I am finding without much shock that though I enjoy the company of this extrovert as a buddy/friend, doing business with that person may/ will change the dynamics too much and introduce more of a employer-employee or big boss-worker dynamic. And I don't think that I can handle that. In my experience, family and/or friends do not mix well with business.
    Why don't you tell her this? At least you will find out if she values you as a friend. She can't suspect you don't after this.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Why do you feel that the extroverts in your life are always telling you what to do?

    Some people are convenient, sure, but that's not the normal basis of a friendship.

    Personally I think INFJs often have to do a proper door-slam when they feel friendships are not even or they are being used. Think it's healthy, but the divide isn't extrovert vs introvert, it's people who value you for who you are vs those who consider you convenient or would use you.
    Based on past painful experience. Maybe that is why I am being extra cautious.

    I am an INFJ who does not want to door-slam anymore. While I strongly feel it was justified a few times I have used it, I found that it tended to isolate me more and onlookers always side with those who are the first to tell their side of the story.

  5. #5
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    Why don't you tell her this? At least you will find out if she values you as a friend. She can't suspect you don't after this.
    Thanks, I'll do that if she asks again...

  6. #6
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Well it may not be an issue of disrespect or using, hard to say without additional information about the specifics, but enneagram 7s (many ExxPs) are driven by experiencing fun and avoiding pain, if this was something she saw as not using strengths and totally unfun then I can understand her lack of interest in doing it herself. Question is, what would she get out of it if you had've taken her up on her proposal that suggests she is using you?

    I ask this as another way of reading it is she has a job that she needs someone to do, she knows you have the right strengths so considers you a good fit, if you are unwilling or unable she will need to find another person. It may have simply been a situation that she saw as win-win.

  7. #7
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    Stock phrase: "I'd really like to help, but I'm pretty busy right now / my work is pretty tough at the moment / I've been stressed out about things in my life / etc. so I don't think I will have time to do it"?

  8. #8
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I second the notion that mixing friendship and work can make a very big mess-especially if the terms are somewhat nebulous and subject to interpretation.

    It sounds like your enfp is simply delegating a task and offering payment-although as I said there seems to be something nebulous about the payment. She may actually feel she is doing you a service by offering to let you profit from the task, since it sounds like you work freelance.

    On the other hand it sounds as though you care much emotionally, for your work and are seeking to be of service in return-you dont seek payment primarily-you seek to show affection via offering her your time to teacher her how to do the task.

    From your perspective it feels as though the offering of service-Fe-has been rejected-thus she is just using you to accomplish a task.

    From her perspective though, she is functioning in Te mode where she is using you-given your expertise, knowledge and skill set to accomplish a task quickly and efficiently in the most productive manner possible. Not emotive in nature-just results oriented.

    Productivity is enhanced by finding a skilled, dedicated person to complete a job, and then paying them, rather than trying to learn and make mistakes while simultaneously also completing many other tasks.

    Demand payment for your work in any case. (all of course offered as one potential interpretation of your OP,apologies if I went off course)

  9. #9
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immaculate Cloud View Post
    Anyone ever read the book "Managing Einstein" by - forgot who.

    Recently, an extroverted friend ( ENFP ) asked me for a big favor. In short, to do the grunt work for her and then IF it works, I shall get paid a share.

    I did not say a flat out no but wanted to show her how to do it herself but she refused citing the fact that she was very busy and had more interesting things to do and I could do it more efficiently, etc, etc.

    The long and short of it was that "I" "did not understand", that "I" "could earn some extra money this way, that she has already made a deal with her company if I were to do it freelance, they'd pay me, etc.

    So after much thinking, I am finding without much shock that though I enjoy the company of this extrovert as a buddy/friend, doing business with that person may/ will change the dynamics too much and introduce more of a employer-employee or big boss-worker dynamic. And I don't think that I can handle that. In my experience, family and/or friends do not mix well with business.

    My solution in those cases often is to show them how to do something and let them run with it. I teach them freely and then it is up to them what they do or don't do with it. But here, I met with a flat refusal to even want to learn..."I am not interested but you can do it more efficiently", etc. I am perplexed and rather disappointed. And yea, I am a bit hurt too that the things that I do well are met with such disdain. ( Useful but not fun. Got more interesting things to do. )

    The nagging questions are:

    Why are the extroverts in my life always telling me what to do?
    I need a few stock phrases to be able to say no without ruffling their feathers.
    I don't want to get to the point where I need to door-slam to make them understand that though I am willing to help, I will not be treated as a convenient friend.
    Do they (be honest, extroverts!) consider us as convenient?
    They are more convenient to us than we are to them.

  10. #10
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    @Orobas:

    On the contrary, I appreciate your highly accurate reading of the situation. You've help clear the confusion of emotions this situation has brought by spelling out the POV of both sides. Thank you.

    @All:
    So far, most of my introverted friends have been content to just ask me out for lunch and we simply enjoy each other's company. We might go dutch or I might be treated but if I am, it hardly feels that payback time will come later.

    With the extroverts in my life, on the other hand, I have noticed this mixing of business and pleasure. After lunch comes the inevitable, "would you mind having a look at this? It falls within your area of expertise". Never mind that I might be in a hurry or had other plans. Aw come on, just ten minutes, it won't take you that long and there I am and it takes more than ten minutes and I am late for my next appointment. So I get wary now. The lunches seem more like bargaining chips. It's a pattern I have noticed.

    Perhaps it is I who ought to put emotions aside and learn to be a hard-nosed negotiator when it comes to business with friends.

    And I need to work on establishing clear boundaries...

    In my work, it is much easier to handle total strangers and getting paid by them. The transaction is clear. There is nothing nebulous about the terms here - to borrow a word from Orobas.

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