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  1. #41
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    For the people who make it past the gates, it's a butt touching free-for-all.
    That's going in my sig. *deep bow*

    All of my unfinished thoughts get directed at LadyJaye and even then I do it with piles of kneejerk disclaimers attached.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  2. #42
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    I think hearing about those crazy, raw, unprocessed thoughts is really great. It means a lot to me that someone will tell me something they havent fully thought out.

  3. #43
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkavia View Post
    I think hearing about those crazy, raw, unprocessed thoughts is really great. It means a lot to me that someone will tell me something they havent fully thought out.
    Here's the thing though - Ti is precise about thoughts and how they are organized and expressed and the shades of exact meaning. Fi is like that with emotions. While we'd be pleased to hear about unprocessed emotion, I think it is unlikely from most Fi users. For the same reason, I think it is unlikely that you will hear about raw unprocessed thoughts from most Ti users.

    I've been thinking about this for a little while since Ergophobe asked why we can't trust enough to talk about something until it's safely been dealt with or settled in our own minds. I think this is the reason.

  4. #44
    Glycerine
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    Oh trust me... its's our secret way to infect your mind.

    On a serious note, I usually say my unprocessed thoughts in a few precise words or sentences. This drives Ne users up the wall because they read so much into it and then usually read the completely wrong interpretation into it. This is occasionally why I clash with some ENFPs: something about Ne+Fi. Ne+Ti and Fi+Ne isn't quite as bad for the miscommunication errors.

  5. #45
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Oh trust me... its's our secret way to infect your mind.
    Also, spores. Lots of spores.

    On a serious note, I usually say my unprocessed thoughts in a few precise words or sentences. This drives Ne users up the wall because they read so much into it and then usually read the completely wrong interpretation into it. This is occasionally why I clash with some ENFPs: something about Ne+Fi. Ne+Ti and Fi+Ne isn't quite as bad for the miscommunication errors.
    I know that as an ENFP, LadyJaye is quite patient with me overall, mostly because I'm good at communicating my thoughts. The trouble is, I communicate well when I'm NOT in turmoil. If I'm embroiled in a difficult thought or feeling, my capacity to communicate goes horribly wrong. I start using a very limited emotional vocabulary (thank you to Protean for that wonderful phrase) and THEN I can wear Jaye's patience thin when she'd trying to get to the source of what's confounding me. It's like a robot going haywire - what made sense before no longer makes sense and it comes out of me in nonsensical bursts.

    If I'm dealing with a particularly difficult concept, sometimes I sit down with paper and a pen and let my Ni-Ti axis pull the idea apart, usually through lists and lists of words that may not seem connected to anything by an outsiders' observation, but if I keep at it, the definition for the Immovable Object will come forward, even if I have to INVENT a word to do it. My Ni *swears* to me that purple has a flavor.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  6. #46
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    yeah, and worst of all, i don't know what's valuable until i realize how others interpret value. i need the context in order to understand how something is purposeful for others, because i need other meanings in order to synthesize them and find my own understanding. the actual position i take is still difficult.
    For me, I’m not sure it’s a matter of not knowing what’s valuable so much as being able to estimate what’s valuable to other people. And I guess by ‘valuable’, I mean that which ‘seems true’ to other people. I can come up with a lot of stuff that feels valuable and seems true to me alone, but I can’t stand the feeling of having it accumulate without effectively being able to share it. I need to mix it with others’ perceptions and opinions or it just starts feeling stale. I need that synthesis (of my ideas/opinions with that of others) to make the value of my ideas/opinions more solid.

    Also, I think the sheer volume of *stuff* that occurs to me gets overwhelming. Some of it is great, some of it is crap. If I can’t trust someone enough to bounce my stream-of-conscious off of them, then I’ve got to let Ti shave off all the possible crap first- and that gets exhausting.

    So as it pertains to the op: I only bounce the goofy/paranoid/nonsensical stuff off of people I trust to not take it the wrong way or blow it out of proportion. I also agree with what fidelia & others said about sharing critical thoughts being an indication that someone is ‘in’; we don’t invite conflict with someone unless we can trust they won’t overreact.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    For the same reason, I think it is unlikely that you will hear about raw unprocessed thoughts from most Ti users.

    I've been thinking about this for a little while since Ergophobe asked why we can't trust enough to talk about something until it's safely been dealt with or settled in our own minds. I think this is the reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    If I'm embroiled in a difficult thought or feeling, my capacity to communicate goes horribly wrong. I start using a very limited emotional vocabulary (thank you to Protean for that wonderful phrase) and THEN I can wear Jaye's patience thin when she'd trying to get to the source of what's confounding me. It's like a robot going haywire - what made sense before no longer makes sense and it comes out of me in nonsensical bursts.
    ^this is why I think people who can listen without having some strong reaction are invaluable. That stuff just won’t leave our heads if there’s any chance the person is going to take it the wrong way or mistake it for finished product. If I can’t spew whatever comes to mind- and some of it is flat out embarrassing- without having the person get judgmental (over me simply having those thoughts in the first place) then I clam up. It isn't even a conscious decision, I just freeze like a deer in headlights and can't even articulate the raw fragments. I really can only get those fragments out around people who can remain calm and simply listen without getting worked up by it.

    It's kind of like the difference between trying things on in front of a regular mirror (deadpan, still, calm surface) vs a funhouse mirror (getting a distorted reflection back from things I say). Trying things on in front of a funhouse mirror gives us no indication of how they really look and only further confuses us (gives us even MORE to process)- so we clam up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    My Ni *swears* to me that purple has a flavor.
    Exactly.

    I don’t know how much of this^ most ENFJs can relate to, but I do see some of it going on in my ENFJ mother. There are very few people who see her true colors. She does, however, seem to have more stamina than I do for dealing with people who aren’t necessarily ‘in’- it doesn’t seem to wear her out as easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    All of my unfinished thoughts get directed at LadyJaye and even then I do it with piles of kneejerk disclaimers attached.
    That is awesome. Maybe at some point it the future, it’ll be available for INFJs everywhere to acquire ENP clones of themselves. That would totally rock. Someone should get on that.

    Also: I, too, am a serial dispatcher of knee-jerk disclaimers.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #47
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    For me, I’m not sure it’s a matter of not knowing what’s valuable so much as being able to estimate what’s valuable to other people. And I guess by ‘valuable’, I mean that which ‘seems true’ to other people. I can come up with a lot of stuff that feels valuable and seems true to me alone, but I can’t stand the feeling of having it accumulate without effectively being able to share it. I need to mix it with others’ perceptions and opinions or it just starts feeling stale. I need that synthesis (of my ideas/opinions with that of others) to make the value of my ideas/opinions more solid.
    Seconded. All of it.

    Also, I think the sheer volume of *stuff* that occurs to me gets overwhelming. Some of it is great, some of it is crap. If I can’t trust someone enough to bounce my stream-of-conscious off of them, then I’ve got to let Ti shave off all the possible crap first- and that gets exhausting.
    I also question my ability to self-edit past a point. I get so caught up in the Ni web of connections that I'd really do well to ask someone on the outside to help me slip through the maze so I can get to the end and say, "Ah! So this is where it pops out at...". Then I turn around and reverse engineer back to the trouble spot.

    So as it pertains to the op: I only bounce the goofy/paranoid/nonsensical stuff off of people I trust to not take it the wrong way or blow it out of proportion. I also agree with what fidelia & others said about sharing critical thoughts being an indication that someone is ‘in’; we don’t invite conflict with someone unless we can trust they won’t overreact.

    ^this is why I think people who can listen without having some strong reaction are invaluable. That stuff just won’t leave our heads if there’s any chance the person is going to take it the wrong way or mistake it for finished product. If I can’t spew whatever comes to mind- and some of it is flat out embarrassing- without having the person get judgmental (over me simply having those thoughts in the first place) then I clam up. It isn't even a conscious decision, I just freeze like a deer in headlights and can't even articulate the raw fragments. I really can only get those fragments out around people who can remain calm and simply listen without getting worked up by it.
    Me exactly. Including the freeze up/silence.

    I don’t know how much of this^ most ENFJs can relate to, but I do see some of it going on in my ENFJ mother. There are very few people who see her true colors. She does, however, seem to have more stamina than I do for dealing with people who aren’t necessarily ‘in’- it doesn’t seem to wear her out as easily.
    I know I fall to the very lowest end of the E spectrum, but I can say that all the data that gets spat at me by my Ni perpetual motion machine gets assigned all manner of colorful doodads by my Fe, like a hermit crab adorning it's shell of sorts.


    That is awesome. Maybe at some point it the future, it’ll be available for INFJs everywhere to acquire ENP clones of themselves. That would totally rock. Someone should get on that.
    I highly recommend it. They taste purple too.

    Also: I, too, am a serial dispatcher of knee-jerk disclaimers.
    I can't seem to NOT do that. Like "Please don't judge it - it's just a baby!" If my writing or drawing spits up on you, I have clean towels.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  8. #48

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    ditto! putting it to words .
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I do hold myself back with people to some degree, even when befriending them. What determines the dynamic of the relationship, to me, is whether a person can give as well as take in the same currency, so to speak. If I listen to your problems and allow you to vent, affirming you and validating your feelings but when I have something going on, you give me a pat answer or tell me why I'm wrong to feel that way or offer me solutions like I'm an idiot, I might still be your friend, but you won't necessarily be mine.

  9. #49
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If you start hearing negative stuff from us, particularly about yourself, you'll know you're in. It's not usually worth having conflict/jeopardizing the relationship unless we really care and it is going to have a long term impact on us both.

    So true. +3

    I think usually INFJs are very patience with people and that we rarely enjoy criticizing others. But once we started to do that, it's just another sign of attempt for us getting to know you better; and we don't do that to those who we don't consider as important.

    The purpose for me to do this, be it opening up or questioning specific actions or thoughts of you rarely has to do with questioning your integrity, but just a puzzle which I would like to solve for the sake of closure. I mean think about it, I always felt if we ignore it, it will eventually lead to negative assumptions and thus weakening the bond of our relationships.

    Sadly, most people consider this as an act of personal attack especially to those who are overtly sensitive to criticism. And then if we withdraw ourselves without confrontation, we ended up being labelled as anti-social.

    That's why it's really difficult for others to get to know us as we often get discouraged for our own way of connecting with people in general. In stead we are being labelled as being clingy when our true intention is too secure a much deeper and meaningful relationships.

  10. #50
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Bumping. To see if new-ish NFJs relate.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

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