• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[INFJ] INFJs

redacted

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2007
Messages
4,223
And though I don't personally believe that it is useless to be aware of other's feelings, it doesn't really matter, I am. I can't help it. It's not even a virtue, it's just a trait. For good or for ill, my feelings are tied to the feelings of those around me and that means if I want to feel good, I can't go around making people feel bad. Sometimes that means observing social conventions even when I do not believe they have value beyond maintaining harmony. I do not observe the conventions because I care about the conventions, they are just tools in my toolbox. I observe them because I care about people and about how they feel whether I want to or not. It is not a selfless thing that I do, but it is certainly not insincere.

couldn't have put it better myself.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
Correct. In this thread I am predominantly concerned with very unhealthy INFJs.

I have to agree with Fineline. When dealing with unhealthy and/or immature people, type really doesn't matter. Typically you can only ignore it or complain about it. Neither is likely to cause a person to change nor improve your ability to cope with the annoyance. This is a case where having Fe can actually be helpful. It keeps you from making the situation worse. :D
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
By showing that Fe can indeed be abused by its owners, you raise questions about its sincerity in general.).

I did not make this charge.




Destructive criticism is property of Ti and not Ne. Unhealthy INTPs criticize not to undercut others, but simply to point out fault. Since they are so into their T they either misunderstand or disregard the interpersonal implications their actions carry. So you cant say they trash people.

Could there be Ne cant? Sure, but thats more a property of ENPs than INPs, as that would be merely sharing information or asking for perspectives of others just to lay them out to the table without doing deep brainstorming. Can you convict me of this? Certainly, as often I ask for perspectives of others without really taking them in consideration. Though the destructive criticism bit, I take it was much more of your concern than that. This you've misattributed to unhealthy Ne when it should have been attributed to Ti.


Now, a good question to ask is, why is it that INTPs who supposedly dont mean to undercut others with their criticism strike feelers as maliciously and unmistakably destructive. Because the Feeling function is negative (our inferior functions tend to be negative because we tend to have an attitude of discomfort towards as they come to us with great difficulty) and hence negative feelings are directed at the object of INTPs' criticisms.

But thats long in the past for me, I am well aware of the impact my comments carry on others. Personally, I enjoy criticizing very much and I dont think there is anything wrong with it as long as you are aware of the interpersonal ramifications of your actions. As well as take the proper means to prevent harm from ensuing as a result. I dont think that a fetish for criticizing is evidence of neurosis.


I am not trashing the whole type of INFJ, just their neurotic representatives. You could draw a parallel to similar ridicules of other types.


*Again, in this thread I am not asking for help with how to deal with INFJs in general, but only with the very unhealthy ones. They are the ones afflicted with the cant problem.


Again, it sounds like Ne cant coming from an immature INTP: Your Ti is very self-involved; your Ne makes the world seem very intrusive and puts you on the defensive; so you use Ne neurotically to dream up ways to attack and minimize the biggest bugaboo of the INTPs: Fe. ).

The reason why I cant deal with neurotic Fe is not so much that it is intrusive but more because it is simply destitute of true depth of feeling. I'd be kidding myself if I thought I could have a relationship with such a person, as then I'd have to befool myself into thinking when its manifest to me that they're putting on an act.

Keep in mind, neurotic Fe, as I use the term is by definition what you call 'abused by its owners'.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
They aren't all like that. Promise.

And though I don't personally believe that it is useless to be aware of other's feelings, it doesn't really matter, I am. I can't help it. It's not even a virtue, it's just a trait. For good or for ill, my feelings are tied to the feelings of those around me and that means if I want to feel good, I can't go around making people feel bad. Sometimes that means observing social conventions even when I do not believe they have value beyond maintaining harmony. I do not observe the conventions because I care about the conventions, they are just tools in my toolbox. I observe them because I care about people and about how they feel whether I want to or not. It is not a selfless thing that I do, but it is certainly not insincere.

I do this frequently as well, and I consider it a skill and a strength to know what people like and to be properly aware of social niceties and conventions. I think it is a skill that one will not abuse as long as one uses it within reason. When using such a skill, one must maintain a healthy sense of self-worth. In other words, one must not honor social conventions simply to get love and attention. One must already feel worthy of love and attention, so that one will not have a desire to seek it by "molding" themselves to society's expectations. F types in particular are in danger of honoring people's wishes simply so they are positively regarded. I think this may be what Bluewing is referring to. But I'm an INFP with domFi and /I/ am /especially/ at risk for this behavior. It's not just Fe types. I think we all, in some way, are probably susceptible to it.

People who fritter around trying to please everyone, sitting on too many councils, listening to too many people's problems, and wearing themselves out in the process, do seem fake and insincere. This is overcompensation for something lacking - love, acceptance, etc. People who sacrifice themselves looking for the approval of others have not realized that the most important rejection they have already borne is the rejection of themselves.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I do this frequently as well, and I consider it a skill and a strength to know what people like and to be properly aware of social niceties and conventions. I think it is a skill that one will not abuse as long as one uses it within reason. When using such a skill, one must maintain a healthy sense of self-worth. In other words, one must not honor social conventions simply to get love and attention. One must already feel worthy of love and attention, so that one will not have a desire to seek it by "molding" themselves to society's expectations. F types in particular are in danger of honoring people's wishes simply so they are positively regarded. I think this may be what Bluewing is referring to. But I'm an INFP with domFi and /I/ am /especially/ at risk for this behavior. It's not just Fe types. I think we all, in some way, are probably susceptible to it.

People who fritter around trying to please everyone, sitting on too many councils, listening to too many people's problems, and wearing themselves out in the process, do seem fake and insincere. This is overcompensation for something lacking - love, acceptance, etc. People who sacrifice themselves looking for the approval of others have not realized that the most important rejection they have already borne is the rejection of themselves.


Could not agree more. Yet, the issue I've invoked was not so much about them looking for approval, but misunderstanding a mere appearance of approval for the essence of approval itself.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
but misunderstanding a mere appearance of approval for the essence of approval itself.

Well, when you're needy, you take what you can get. It's arguable whether the approval people bestow on you when you actively seek their approval is the real thing, or just pity. The bottom line is that when you are needy and don't feel valuable, you can never get enough of a substitute. The praise other people give you when you're insecure never really touches you deeply, because they are not complimenting or approving of you, but of the self-image you have constructed to catch that praise and respect. How can someone approve of something they are never allowed to see? Moreover, people who construct a self-image to gain approval deceive themselves into thinking that they ARE their self-image, so they're out of touch with their authentic selves as much as everyone else is. They love the ideal image of themselves, not themselves.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Well if you're talking about that kind of thing, like others have mentioned, you're just dealing with an immature person and that is simply the way in which immaturity is likely to manifest in this type. It's just something we have to grow out of or rip ourselves out of, thrashing and screaming, just like any other person emerging from an unhealthy pattern. Maturity is obviously a process and not everyone undergoes it at the same rate or at all. You can't really do anything about that.

You can choose to be patient with the person and look on them with some level of compassion because they are probably not in a great place and/or you can try to stay away from them as much as possible, but you are probably going to experience annoyance no matter what.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
[/B]

Could not agree more. Yet, the issue I've invoked was not so much about them looking for approval, but misunderstanding a mere appearance of approval for the essence of approval itself.

:huh: Why all this faking it? If you don't approve of someone then it does nothing to improve interpersonal relations to pretend. To the contrary, it is a detriment because any communication is then a lie. It's pretty dichotomous. Either you approve of someone or you don't. It would seem pretty insincere to me to pretend to appreciate someone.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
:huh: Why all this faking it? If you don't approve of someone then it does nothing to improve interpersonal relations to pretend. To the contrary, it is a detriment because any communication is then a lie. It's pretty dichotomous. Either you approve of someone or you don't. It would seem pretty insincere to me to pretend to appreciate someone.

Their crime, in this respect is against the essence of feeling. They dont think about what most conduces to the soundness of a relationship, they only think about all the things they are supposed to do in order to fulfill their role.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
Why all this faking it? If you don't approve of someone then it does nothing to improve interpersonal relations to pretend. To the contrary, it is a detriment because any communication is then a lie. It's pretty dichotomous. Either you approve of someone or you don't. It would seem pretty insincere to me to pretend to appreciate someone.

Fs in particular are in peril of falling into these kinds of patterns with others. They don't want disharmony or to hurt others' feelings, so they dampen down their criticisms or don't give them at all.

I agree with Cafe that everyone has maturing to do. If one cannot just ignore an immature person or learn to empathize with them, one probably has some maturing to do oneself.

What are you looking for in this thread, Blue? Some insight into immature INFJs?
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
Their crime, in this respect is against the essence of feeling. They dont think about what most conduces to the soundness of a relationship, they only think about all the things they are supposed to do in order to fulfill their role.

The essence of feeling is to convey information, not to protect the "soundness of relationships".

Character is a tricky topic. You are dealing with what some people consider to be their inherent nature, or the attributes by which others will forever regard and judge them. In addition, there are people willing to die for their perceived rights or obligations, in the name of duty, truth, or compassion, regardless of reason. If you judge Fe to be wasted on maintaining character then that is a value judgment that says more about you than neurotic INFJs.
 

MJ_

New member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
72
MBTI Type
INFj
I dont think that a fetish for criticizing is evidence of neurosis.

It may not be, but it certainly doesn't give the best impression of sound mental health.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
It may not be, but it certainly doesn't give the best impression of sound mental health.

Agreed.

I don't think a fetish for criticizing is evidence of neurosis.

Actually, I'm going to have to say it's one of the best markers of neurosis. If one is critical of oneself, one is almost always critical of others as well.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
:hi:
Agreed.



Actually, I'm going to have to say it's one of the best markers of neurosis. If one is critical of oneself, one is almost always critical of others as well.

Sigh..you're interpreting criticism from a feeling standpoint. Criticism in a way that I used the word entails no emotion, neither positive nor negative.

Criticism in the way I use the word goes as follows: this needs to be improved, that is accurate/inaccurate...etc..more concerned with inaccurate than accurate however..as the task of Thinking is to find accuracy. Thus, Thinking is necessarily a critical attitude because it strives for the greatest accuracy possible. The scenario is always viewed from the standpoint of what can be improved.

Criticism by enlarge is to be equated with Thinking...not the emotional shadow of Thinking..

I am not surprised to see you equating Thinking with neurosis, as thats your inferior function.;)
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
I'm equating over-criticalness with neurosis. I am not equating constructive criticism with neurosis. Constructive criticism is often needed. I deny it not. I give it myself. However, you said you have a "fetish" for criticising others, which sounds to me like you do it more than just constructively. It sounds like you leap on every opportunity to criticize.

I can and do divorce constructive criticism from personal criticism of oneself.

Just like seeking approval all the time is compensation for things lacking, so is seeking things to criticise all the time.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I'm equating over-criticalness with neurosis. I am not equating constructive criticism with neurosis. Constructive criticism is often needed. I deny it not. I give it myself. However, you said you have a "fetish" for criticising others, which sounds to me like you do it more than just constructively. It sounds like you leap on every opportunity to criticize.

I can and do divorce constructive criticism from personal criticism of oneself.

Just like seeking approval all the time is compensation for things lacking, so is seeking things to criticise all the time.


Over-criticizing is not any more or less evidence of a neurosis than over-harmonizing. Or paying more attention to facts than necessary (S), or too much to imagination. (N)

Neurosis, in a functional sense consists of the primary function becoming preponderous over all others. Hence, too much of anything is neurosis, not just Thinking.
 

Mempy

Mamma said knock you out
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
2,227
Over-criticizing is not any more or less evidence of a neurosis than over-harmonizing. Or paying more attention to facts than necessary (S), or too much to imagination. (N)

Neurosis, in a functional sense consists of the primary function becoming preponderous over all others. Hence, too much of anything is neurosis, not just Thinking.


Glad we agree.
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
I actually avoid trite and hollow expressions of emotion, myself - and I would suspect that most INFJs do. Sincerity and genuineness are pretty key to the INFJ.
This is a good point. NFs are all about authenticity, according to Keirsey.
 

alcea rosea

New member
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
3,658
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
I have known only one definite INFJ and OMG she is interesting persona! :yes: First very reserved but when known she is sooooo deep and has very interesting perceptions of people.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I actually avoid trite and hollow expressions of emotion, myself - and I would suspect that most INFJs do. Sincerity and genuineness are pretty key to the INFJ.
This is true and just because an act is perceived as trite by someone doesn't address the motivation and perspective that generated that act. People are complex enough that it takes a great deal of time and attention to gain any useful understanding of what a person intends when they communicate something.

For me it hurts a lot when I express something, and it is dismissed as "just being nice". While there are different levels of meaning, it doesn't make sense to put forth the effort without sincerity. (I started a thread about it as well.)
 
Top