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Thread: INFJs

  1. #71
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If you cant detach you're confined only to your own perspective, as this post shows. (As you seem to be suggesting that in order to know what sincere emotion is, you must have direct experience with it.)

    If you can see the situation impersonally you will not need to rely on direct experience for acquisition of knowledge. Hence, you will be able to figure out what is and what is not sincere emoting without empathy.
    I can detach. It's a process of blocking that pretty much shuts down all feeling in a particular direction. It's necessary. I do not like to do it because compassion gets shut down with the other feelings and I value compassion.

    A person with dominant Ni can pretty easily change perspectives and can often have trouble choosing a particular one and can even hold multiple and/or conflicting perspectives at the same time. Experience, does however have it's place in understanding and that particular kind of understanding cannot really be gained any other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing
    No, I dont. I would not go by how I feel to decide whether or not the expression is sincere.
    What criteria do you use?
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  2. #72
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    ...
    Meantime, your mantra that "Thinking is criticism by definition" is overly precious. I disagree that Fi and Ti are particularly inspired functions. They fumble the ball as much as any other function.
    Bravo.
    ...
    Banalities. You're just regurgitating what the experts say. Put some meat on those bones. Convince me that you've been using your Ne to genuinely observe INFJs rather than merely nitpick at a minor function of theirs you don't like. Give me some examples from your real-life observation of INFJs. Give me some genuine insight. Show me that you really know your subject.
    ...
    I agree that specific examples of encounters with this person would be helpful.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I am thinking more along the lines of how the INFJ will use Fe politically to get other people to do things for them that they need done in order to make their vision become a reality.
    I'm reading through the posts and have been wondering what is meant by misuse of Fe. This is an example of it, then? Do INFJs really do this? I wouldn't claim any particularly maturity in myself, but I know that I can't live with myself when I think that I may have even accidentally manipulated someone into doing something--even when that something is good. I wish I could: I could accomplish a lot more in life if I didn't mind a little manipulation.

  4. #74
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If you can see the situation impersonally you will not need to rely on direct experience for acquisition of knowledge. Hence, you will be able to figure out what is and what is not sincere emoting without empathy.
    this makes no sense to me.

    if you are seeing "the situation impersonally", you're not thinking about sincerity and emotion. 'sincerity' and 'emotion' are terms that only make sense in the personal interaction frame.

    seems like you want to believe that your perspective is always impersonal, because you somehow view it as a more valid viewpoint. and that's fine. but you can't have it both ways. either you stay in your frame and refrain from using personal terms (which is pretty much impossible for any human, and pointless to try), or you switch to the personal frame to talk about these things.

  5. #75
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Why Can't You Share Your Feelings

    this is a really good article on INTPs' possible views of Fe. but i think it's much more applicable to the 3 other xxFJ types than the INFJ.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Why Can't You Share Your Feelings

    this is a really good article on INTPs' possible views of Fe. but i think it's much more applicable to the 3 other xxFJ types than the INFJ.
    That was enlightening.

  7. #77
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Can you objectively describe something that is subjective? I don't mean a general superficial description. I mean the essence of the subjective issue... by that I'm referring to feelings and emotions. You will argue that you can... but can you really come up with a valid counterargument for this?

    My preposition:
    Feelings and emotions are subjective, by that it is impossible to assess them from strictly an objective standpoint, not when you want a relevant and useful comparison with other feelings and emotions. Like a person who has never seen snow before... please describe for them in words what snow is like. Water that freeze slowly to form crystals of ices that falls from the sky? Even with a picture, without seeing it right in front of their eyes and touching it with their hands, they wouldn't understand what it is. Similar case with describing vision to an individual born blind. True, you can objectively describe something in great details, but you can't understand its intricacies subjectively without being in that standpoint yourself.

    Can you for once let go and experience it rather than denying its existence in yourself? Ne hasn't helped you much at all... only to isolate yourself further into the box that Ti has constructed.

  8. #78
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Why Can't You Share Your Feelings

    this is a really good article on INTPs' possible views of Fe. but i think it's much more applicable to the 3 other xxFJ types than the INFJ.
    Interesting article.
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  9. #79
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Can you objectively describe something that is subjective? I don't mean a general superficial description. I mean the essence of the subjective issue... by that I'm referring to feelings and emotions. You will argue that you can... but can you really come up with a valid counterargument for this?

    My preposition:
    Feelings and emotions are subjective, by that it is impossible to assess them from strictly an objective standpoint, not when you want a relevant and useful comparison with other feelings and emotions. Like a person who has never seen snow before... please describe for them in words what snow is like. Water that freeze slowly to form crystals of ices that falls from the sky? Even with a picture, without seeing it right in front of their eyes and touching it with their hands, they wouldn't understand what it is. Similar case with describing vision to an individual born blind. True, you can objectively describe something in great details, but you can't understand its intricacies subjectively without being in that standpoint yourself.

    Can you for once let go and experience it rather than denying its existence in yourself? Ne hasn't helped you much at all... only to isolate yourself further into the box that Ti has constructed.
    exactly. and even if you made the argument that emotions/subjectivity can actually reduce to physical reactions (which i would agree with), it's not like listing the positions of every particle over time would get anyone any closer to understanding emotion. yes, you could hypothetically predict future behaviors, but you wouldn't understand those behaviors in an emotional way, and you wouldn't use words like "emotion", you'd only be able to talk about particles. plus, it would take 1093812098349783948734x more processing power than someone who just used Ni and Fe to do the same predictive task (although Ni/Fe would be less accurate i guess).

  10. #80
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    this makes no sense to me.

    if you are seeing "the situation impersonally", you're not thinking about sincerity and emotion. 'sincerity' and 'emotion' are terms that only make sense in the personal interaction frame.

    seems like you want to believe that your perspective is always impersonal, because you somehow view it as a more valid viewpoint. and that's fine. but you can't have it both ways. either you stay in your frame and refrain from using personal terms (which is pretty much impossible for any human, and pointless to try), or you switch to the personal frame to talk about these things.


    It is possible to have Feeling subordinate to Thinking. Or your emotions can give you the information necessary to draw out an impersonal exegesis of Feelings.

    That is how, Jung, an INTP himself managed to write accurate descriptions of how Feelings function. Yet, he duly acknowledges that Feeling, especially Introverted Feeling is very difficult to describe. Yet possible at having taken input from your own emotions. You need to experience emotion only on a very superficial level--just enough to get the basic 'feel' of what it is like in order to systemize it.

    As I believe I have very accurately depicted the nature of Fi without having empathized to a great extent.

    So, I have gotten the very basic notion of how F works by consulting my Fe. Than I thought about how Fi works, or for example, the same thing as my Fe only internally focused. So I looked back at how my Fe functions, and imagined that same feeling magnified and internally focused. And so forth I did for the rest of the characteristics of Fi.

    Thus, empathy does need to play a role in our inquiry into emotions, though it does not need to be very significant. It just needs to give us something to start with.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am thinking that it may be possible to inquire into emotions without consulting our own emotional experiences. Imagine how you'd be reading a novel where the narrator comments that the protagonist felt in this particular way because of how X happened to him. And also that X is associated with A, B,C and D kind of emotion which are in some way related to Y,Z, and T occurences.

    So you'd extrapolate this notion to other events in the novel and based on the formula you'd receive you would be able to figure out how the character would feel in such situations.

    Though in that case, all that we know about his feelings is that they are connected with a particular stimuli. We will not know anything about the intrinsic essence of those Feelings, they'd merely be arbitrary signs. This would make them difficult to keep in perspective as they simply would not have any meaning. Now there is the part where we will need to consult our subjective emotions to discover the intrinsic essence of those feelings. After we have experienced them on our own accord, we will be able to know what we're talking about.

    So, in the end--even though I may not feel as deeply and as intensely as the INFP does, I have a diminished in impact notion of what they may be experiencing. So if I imagine the same feeling they undergo twisted inwards and magnified in intensity, I will have a clear notion of how their mind works without having experienced it firsthand. Therefore, I only need to be able to imagine what such an idea would be like, I do not need to experience it firsthand.
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