User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 109

Thread: INFJs

  1. #61
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    or, from an INFJ perspective, the only mistake YOU have made was not understanding the dynamics of the conversation and using antagonistic phrasing.

    Fe rules
    Hmm...I realized I could have been misunderstood easily there..I knew id be able to pull out eventually..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #62
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    that sounds more ENFJish.

    Fe, for me at least, isn't used very much as a manipulative tool (although i have been guilty of using it like that obviously). i mostly use Fe to form/maintain strong bonds with people that i can share my Ni+Ti insights with. it's a very warm function

    i've definitely seen multiple ENFJs use Fe the way you're talking about...but the INFJs i know (since they're not as outer world oriented) seem to be much more quiet and contemplative (not manipulative).
    I'd have to agree with this. Off balance INFJs will use Fe to protect the integrity of the inner world. This certainly should lead to much less manipulation.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #63
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    heh, i was expecting you to disagree with me.

    back to the subject, i think Fe can easily be used negatively, but so can any function.

    anyways, i would think an INFJ would be able to know exactly how much emotion to express while interacting with an INTP because of Fe. in fact, wouldn't Ni/Te be even more annoying? at least Fe tries to account for how its actions will be perceived...

    edit: add-on

    both INFJs and INTJs can get emotional. the INTJ would be the one who wouldn't know how to express the emotion to the INTP. in fact, i'd even claim that the INFJ is probably the best type at effectively expressing their emotions.

  4. #64
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    A lot of what you said in the first half of your message was just fine-tuning of definitions and insertion of qualifiers: Which I don't object to.

    In some cases you pointed out that any given interpretation of a behavior might not be correct in every case: Agreed, there are exceptions to every rule. But we're talking about averages and long-term trends within long-term contexts.

    Meantime, your mantra that "Thinking is criticism by definition" is overly precious. I disagree that Fi and Ti are particularly inspired functions. They fumble the ball as much as any other function. Similarly, I disagree that INFPs need some kind of higher purpose to complete them. Frankly, the exact opposite is much closer to the truth. INFPs are the debutantes of causes and crusades. We're known for flitting from one to the next, never quite finding a home. In my opinion, an affinity for causes and crusades is merely one more maladaptive trait of the INFP personality. INFPs would do better to fortify their Fi with well-functioning Ne, adapt to the real world, and quit fruitlessly seeking ecstasy or apotheosis in causes and crusades.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Look more carefully...you'd see my posts have gotten more dynamic over the last few months..

    And I've tailored plenty even in this post..

    I will admit that this was somewhat of a stunt...

    I am not at all disgusted, I notice as I become more comfortable with my Ne I start to present for an effect of some kind...I think thats a good objection to your previous charge.

    I am amused that you took for this to be a genuine expression of my personal attitudes..

    Really..the protesting part was overdone for shock value..

    Wasnt much on the way of arguments, though some good observations. The only mistake you seem to have made was missing the facetious and light-hearted aspect of my protestation. Though it seems to me that your claims are centered around the notion that I dont adapt to the audience. Thats just not true...read more of my posts and compare them to what I wrote on INTPc a year ago..you'll see a big difference...

    Though..the protestation did bear a lurid semblance on those old posts..back then those were serious expressions of my attitudes..here it was ill-fated humor at best...
    I agree with you here. I did indeed register facetiousness and hyperbole--INFPs are masters at hyperbole.

    In the past year you've taken to wrapping banalities in grandiloquent language. It's still somewhat maladaptive: You're using Ne (playful, grandiloquent mode of expression) as a smokescreen to divert attention from the fact that you're still not sufficiently attuned to the world around you (banalities = isolated Ti not being properly fed and informed by healthy use of Ne).

    But that's a mere quibble. I totally agree with your main point here: You're progressing and developing new modes of expression. I've noticed it myself across the last year. You're opening yourself to new input and trying out new ways of interacting with the world; you're on your way. It's just a matter of time till you get that Ti/Ne interaction fine-tuned and you're supercharging your Ti with high-octane fuel from your Ne.

    But that's also your answer to your question in the OP as to what to do about INFJs with immature/neurotic Fe: Don't get hung up on the fact that they don't have a perfectly healthy Ni/Fe feedback loop yet. Like you, eventually they'll get there. Give them some room to progress at their own pace, and watch them across a year or so. Like you, they're probably growing and progressing. It's just a matter of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    So..what I am thinking is..if your arguments really are founded on that 'protestation of mine'..you're probably off..I dont think my writing is all that dry really..either. You're welcome to send me more of your arguments..though I dont quite see the relevance. This thread is about immature INFJs, yet you come here to psychologize me. Though I did find that interesting nonetheless, however, I think it would be better if you PMed them to me.
    That was the whole point of my opening salvo in this thread--that your objections to INFJs could be equally applied to you, and you should deal with INFJs the same way we deal with you--with a measure of tolerance and patience. If you didn't want me to psychologize you publicly, you should have taken that initial post of mine seriously and requested a PM at that point. Your Ne didn't properly inform your Ti where I was going with my posts, even though I stated my intent clear as day in that initial post. Bad Ne!

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Generally it manifests in INFJs expressing emotion without bothering to make sure they have processed it internally. As well as use it as means to the end of furtherance of their vision. Thats where the Ni enslaves Fe..

    Its very basic..the typical flaw of unhealthy Fe--or expressing without feeling through..and the flaw of Fe subservience to a different function. Here the Fe will be an instrument to carry out some Ni scheme..
    Banalities. You're just regurgitating what the experts say. Put some meat on those bones. Convince me that you've been using your Ne to genuinely observe INFJs rather than merely nitpick at a minor function of theirs you don't like. Give me some examples from your real-life observation of INFJs. Give me some genuine insight. Show me that you really know your subject.

    The usual qualifications will apply: Any given interpretation of a behavior might not be correct in every instance, there are exceptions to every rule, blah blah blah.

  5. #65
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5w6
    Posts
    2,924

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I know you're not talking about me... but I'm just going to try and mimic the reaction of an INFJ whom you accused of this. Don't assume that I mean it, this is only a simulated reaction to see what you make of it. So brace yourself... there's some Fe in here.



    Huh? What is that, anyway? Fi? Are you really going tell me you're more in touch with the essence of feeling than I am? That's quite absurd. At least I do the things required to fulfill my obligations to others. What do you do in your relationships? Flounder around like a child who can't swim, hold off decisions and conceal your doubts/misgivings while projecting a sense of acceptance, perhaps telling someone other than the person you have the problem with about the problem? And this makes me a hypocrite? Fine, maybe I've done a couple of those things, but so have you. Who are you to judge that I'm a criminal, what do you know about the essence of feeling? I may not act in accord with it all the time, but are you going to sit there and tell me that you do? You're probably less aware of it and committing more "crimes" against it (if it can even be called that), than I ever have.

    The only argument you can come up with is that you somehow "sanctify" your feeling by using it so sparingly. But does your feeling really have a different essence when it is expressed, is it not influenced by the agendas of higher functions? And consider this... Fe is an auxiliary function for us. We use it to serve Ni, because Ni gives us purpose. Fe is our tool to achieve it. Do you not use Ne to serve Ti the same way? And would not your attunement to feeling be even more distorted, as Fe is your inferior function? I need to evoke feelings just as you need to evoke ideas. How can you say it's wrong for me to generate feelings to feed off of, when you do/have generated ideas to feed off of in just the same way? You just have a problem with it because you don't have the same need, and thus you feel secure judging us as having a problem. It's a double standard, saying it's okay to evoke ideas and feed off of them to understand, but not okay to evoke emotions and feed ideas from them. What makes feeling's essence so sacred it can't be used like other functions? Nothing, that's a silly notion.
    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    hahaha spoken like a true INFJ.

    ditto.

    You go girl!
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
    ~~~~
    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
    ~~~~
    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
    ~~~~
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
    ~~~~

  6. #66
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    AIn some cases you pointed out that any given interpretation of a behavior might not be correct in every case: Agreed, there are exceptions to every rule. But we're talking about averages and long-term trends within long-term contexts. ..
    You missed the point. There may be correlations between certain behaviors and states of mind, yet there is no direct link.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Meantime, your mantra that "Thinking is criticism by definition" is overly precious. I disagree that Fi and Ti are particularly inspired functions. They fumble the ball as much as any other function..
    I don't see the relevance.




    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Similarly, I disagree that INFPs need some kind of higher purpose to complete them. Frankly, the exact opposite is much closer to the truth. INFPs are the debutantes of causes and crusades. We're known for flitting from one to the next, never quite finding a home. In my opinion, an affinity for causes and crusades is merely one more maladaptive trait of the INFP personality. INFPs would do better to fortify their Fi with well-functioning Ne, adapt to the real world, and quit fruitlessly seeking ecstasy or apotheosis in causes and crusades...
    An INFP with a higher purpose will be content from within. He will not need to rely on crusades for this. Doing the latter is much more akin to what Extroverts do than INFPs--or derive gratificaiton based only on what they have achieved externally and not internally. An INFP who has found inner purpose---or an Internally founded goal will not need to rely on external agenda.

    To say that an INFP does not need a higher purpose, or inner purpose is to deny the importance of satisfying the agenda of introverted judgment which is integral to the nature of an IP. To say that an INFP does not need an inner purpose is tantamount to saying that an INFP should cease acting like an INFP and instead try to act like some extroverted type. I do not see how the primacy of the inner purpose precludes the INFP from being adaptable. The inner purpose will always come first for you, no matter what you do about it---because your mind unconscious gravitates towards inner agenda. This is what introverted judgment is.

    After the INFP has established the inner agenda, he will be ready to move onto the next function, Ne and so forth all the way down to Te. Keep in mind, in order to develop our lower functions we need to develop the higher ones first. So developing the Introverted Judgment, or finding a higher purpose actually conduces to the INFP becoming more adapatable. As we see that the INFP has become more comfortable with Fi, he will readily move on to develop Ne.

    A neurotic INFP will be unadaptable --not using Ne properly, but this notion is wholly neutral to whether or not the INFP has found a higher purpose.


    I agree with you here. I did indeed register facetiousness and hyperbole--INFPs are masters at hyperbole.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    In the past year you've taken to wrapping banalities in grandiloquent language. It's still somewhat maladaptive: You're using Ne (grandiloquent language) as a smokescreen to divert attention from the fact that you're still not sufficiently attuned to the world around you (banalities = isolated Ti not being properly fed and informed by healthy use of Ne)....
    The purpose of using 'grandiloquent terminology' is to better maintain faithfulness to the inner agenda. It has nothing to do with a smokescreen of any kind. The notion of the smokescreen stands in sharp contrast with your earlier claim that a Ti without an Ne will be intensely internally focused. An implication of this would be a lack of image consciousness. One who lacks image consciousness will not be able to put on the proper appearance to conceal this fact.

    Though in regards to that,one could say that perhaps such technical terminology, however faithful it may be to an inner agenda (precision in thought), does not do well to get the message across. And that is common when the Ne of an INP malfunctions.

    But that's a mere quibble. I totally agree with your main point here: You're progressing and developing new modes of expression. I've noticed it myself across the last year. You're opening yourself to new input and trying out new ways of interacting with the world; you're on your way. It's just a matter of time till you get that Ti/Ne interaction fine-tuned and you're supercharging your Ti with good fuel from your Ne.

    But that's also your answer to your question in the OP as to what to do about INFJs with immature/neurotic Fe: Don't get hung up on the fact that they don't have a perfectly healthy Ni/Fe feedback loop yet. Like you, eventually they'll get there. Give them some room to progress at their own pace, and watch them across a year or so. Like you, they're probably growing and progressing. It's just a matter of time.



    That was the whole point of my opening salvo in this thread--that your objections to INFJs could be equally applied to you, and you should deal with INFJs the same way we deal with you--with a measure of tolerance and patience. If you didn't want me to psychologize you publicly, you should have taken that initial post of mine seriously and requested a PM at that point. Your Ne didn't properly inform your Ti where I was going with my posts, even though I stated my intent clear as day in that initial post. Bad Ne!



    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Banalities. You're just regurgitating what the experts say. Put some meat on those bones. Convince me that you've been using your Ne to genuinely observe INFJs rather than merely nitpick at a minor function of theirs you don't like. Give me some examples from your real-life observation of INFJs. Give me some genuine insight. Show me that you really know your subject. )....
    This is your Te bias doing you in. You're projecting your way of doing typology onto me. Te is much more authority oriented. Thus, you see yourself studying what the experts say and try to memorize it, expecting their authority to do the trick for you.

    For Ti, the word of the expert has little value--only what has been critically analyzed first-hand does.

    Moreover, we see another bias of your Te way of doing typology here--

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Give me some examples from your real-life observation of INFJs. Give me some genuine insight. Show me that you really know your subject. )....
    You suggest that in order for an insight to be genuine it must match with real-life observation. That is a radical Te approach--most akin to empiricst methodology.

    Ti philosophers and scientists have shown us that it is possible to derive genuine and profound insight without much reliance on the External world.

    And this is indeed what I have done. Almost all of the insights I have shared with you are sound--namely they are logically consistent and established on acceptable premises.

    Of course I could go on and show you how this is so, but that is too much abstract reasoning to get into--as its as close to pure essence of Ti as it gets--which I do not doubt, is almost wholly foreign to you as its only the backside of your inferior Te. So, in short thats way over your head and no doubt the reason why you were unable to understand my previous insights.

    Your ignorance thereof does not make them any more or less substantial. As that tells one more about you rather than the comment you've posted on. Thats one reason I enjoy reading your posts, as from them I often learn more about you and INFP psychology than about the matters you comment on. As you know I find that type fascinating myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    That was the whole point of my opening salvo in this thread--that your objections to INFJs could be equally applied to you, and you should deal with INFJs the same way we deal with you--with a measure of tolerance and patience. If you didn't want me to psychologize you publicly, you should have taken that initial post of mine seriously and requested a PM at that point. Your Ne didn't properly inform your Ti where I was going with my posts, even though I stated my intent clear as day in that initial post. Bad Ne!
    This is the etiquette you've been talking about--the Extroverted Judgment of much of your fascination. It was not appropriate for you to get into the topic of psychologizing me because it was not relevant to the topic posed in this thread.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #67
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    I'll just respond to one item here:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    To say that an INFP does not need an inner purpose is tantamount to saying that an INFP should cease acting like an INFP and instead try to act like some extroverted type.
    I believe in transcending one's type and learning to be effective at everything (extraversion, introversion, intuition, sensing, etc.), rather than bowing to the limitations of one's type.

    Aside from that, I think we're done here. I've enjoyed the exchange.

    Till another time.

  8. #68
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Ti philosophers and scientists have shown us that it is possible to derive genuine and profound insight without much reliance on the External world.

    And this is indeed what I have done. Almost all of the insights I have shared with you are sound--namely they are logically consistent and established on acceptable premises.

    Of course I could go on and show you how this is so, but that is too much abstract reasoning to get into--as its as close to pure essence of Ti as it gets--which I do not doubt, is almost wholly foreign to you as its only the backside of your inferior Te. So, in short thats way over your head and no doubt the reason why you were unable to understand my previous insights.

    Your ignorance thereof does not make them any more or less substantial. As that tells one more about you rather than the comment you've posted on. Thats one reason I enjoy reading your posts, as from them I often learn more about you and INFP psychology than about the matters you comment on. As you know I find that type fascinating myself.
    I do think your theories are logically consistent. The problem I see is that they mostly have the same central focus... the idea that inner integrity is desirable, and that maintaining an external standard to the neglect of an internal one is detrimental. I can see that theme underlying almost everything you write. That's a good idea that has value in many circumstances, but don't you want to say something more than that?

    You do a good job of elaborating on several specific scenarios where this is a problem, and also with many different types. But the it seems to be all bent on supporting the same underlying notion. Does that make sense?

  9. #69
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I guess I just cant empathize with hollow and trite emotion..i dont think this shows that I lack empathy in general.
    I wasn't saying that you should show empathy or even feel empathy but that you don't get empathy. You assume that a person expressing emotions under circumstances when you would not feel them means that that person's expression is insincere. It's a projection. You lack the understanding of what it means to be empathic. If you have to pretend to care about the feelings of those around you in order to avoid offending them the majority of the time, then you may not lack empathy, but you do not possess it at the same level most INFJs probably do. If you can imagine what it would be like to feel the emotions of those around you, even people you don't even like, like those feelings were your own, then you can begin to gage what is and is not an insincere display of emotion.

    I'm guessing that the only overarching vision most INFJs use their Fe to achieve is a harmonious environment.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #70
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I wasn't saying that you should show empathy or even feel empathy but that you don't get empathy. You assume that a person expressing emotions under circumstances when you would not feel them means that that person's expression is insincere. It's a projection. You lack the understanding of what it means to be empathic. If you have to pretend to care about the feelings of those around you in order to avoid offending them the majority of the time, then you may not lack empathy, but you do not possess it at the same level most INFJs probably do. If you can imagine what it would be like to feel the emotions of those around you, even people you don't even like, like those feelings were your own, then you can begin to gage what is and is not an insincere display of emotion.

    I'm guessing that the only overarching vision most INFJs use their Fe to achieve is a harmonious environment.
    If you cant detach you're confined only to your own perspective, as this post shows. (As you seem to be suggesting that in order to know what sincere emotion is, you must have direct experience with it.)

    If you can see the situation impersonally you will not need to rely on direct experience for acquisition of knowledge. Hence, you will be able to figure out what is and what is not sincere emoting without empathy.


    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    You assume that a person expressing emotions under circumstances when you would not feel them means that that person's expression is insincere..
    No, I dont. I would not go by how I feel to decide whether or not the expression is sincere.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

Similar Threads

  1. [INFJ] INFJs - anger and upset?
    By Eileen in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 70
    Last Post: 05-06-2015, 09:28 AM
  2. [INFJ] INFJ Compatibility - INFJ's Romantic Match?
    By shadowstormz in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 339
    Last Post: 07-17-2014, 06:09 AM
  3. [INFJ] Psychic INFJ's?
    By shadowstormz in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 04-19-2012, 11:18 AM
  4. [INFJ] INFJ organizational strategies
    By Scruffy1123 in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-14-2009, 02:45 AM
  5. [INFJ] Any INFJ girls?
    By findthejake in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 157
    Last Post: 05-11-2008, 04:58 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO