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Thread: INFJs

  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    ... What is it with some NTs [usually earlier in life] and their disinclination and/or hatred for compassion?
    Fixed. *cough*

    Early in life, when the personality is mostly unnuanced and the child is trying to stabilize her primary function, the NT child often finds her own inclinations crushed by the adults and peers belonging to the dominant culture.

    Sheer statistics alone means that this will be an SJ/SP environment.

    SPs (with an extroverted sensing function) usually don't try to crush the child, but those with extroverted judging functions often place demands on the child regardless of her personal inclinations, simply because of their need for closure.

    NTs do not operate according to the same priorities and end up feeling alienated, alone, put down, disregarded. The Ti/Te and Ne/Ni combinations usually result in someone who sees what is possible as hinted at the structure of the outer world, but the SJ conventions just tend to focus on what seems to be a very arbitrary or limiting way of life. (They aren't, necessarily, but the NT child perceives it that way.)

    So the child usually ends up feeling bitterness (and/or loses self-esteem) as part of being the minority misunderstood view and especially in F-related issues is forced to do things that make no sense to her and thus violates her own sensibilities.

    As adults, then, depending on how controlling/aggressive the social environment was growing up, there is often a bitter reaction to F-dominant traits.

    I see as something that has to get worked through, in order for the NT child to become free to be herself, so that she isn't constantly reacting against the ghosts of the past.
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  2. #42
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    When you think about the range of people out there and the 16 MBTI categories, it is clear that each category can only offer a sketch. The diversity of reality is simply too broad to neatly fit in consistent ways. People of any type can be insincere or all manner of unsavory things. This is not the result of cognitive functions necessarily, but of their own personal choices, experience, genetics, etc. Using MBTI to explain everything can turn into a bit of a copout. People are responsible for the results of their behaviors regardless of what cognitive functions are in place. And if one argues that they are not responsible, then who else would be?
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  3. #43
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Hmmm instead of seeking to change the person... would it not be better to look for a compromise? What is Fe if not agreeable?

    Fe in an INFJ can be instinctive. They could very well be reacting to emotions you're displaying unconsciously.

  4. #44
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fixed. *cough*
    Perhaps that wasn't fair

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Hmmm instead of seeking to change the person... would it not be better to look for a compromise? What is Fe if not agreeable?
    But compromise requires you concede your stance a little. I've noticed a good share of NTs simply will not compromise their values such as independence or autonomy, to any degree.

  5. #45
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    bluewing, why are we talking about INFJs having "insincere" Fe and not ENFJs or ESFJs?

    i find that INFJs are much less likely to overuse their Fe (duh) than ExFJs -- all the INFJs i've met have been much more sincere than the ExFJs i know.

    okay, but back to the topic...i know that i've had a tendency to defer to Fe before deferring to pure logic (Ti) -- and i could understand how this would be viewed as insincere by an NTP.

    the thing that NTPs will never understand (feel), though, is that us INFJs are painfully aware of social roles and possible consequences, and we can easily find ourselves in situations where we CANNOT be completely honest/open because we can so easily see what it would do to the people around us. i know from personal experience that there are many times in which i have a completely logically sound view of a concept from many different perspectives (Ni and Ti), but my Fe knows that it cannot be said. or, when i'm lucky, my Fe will find a way to organize my thoughts such that i can get them out without offending anyone (only in a totally roundabout way, unfortunately).

    so when you see an INFJ being "insincere", just try to understand that they are probably in a social position in which "faking it" is the best alternative they can see.

    now, i'm not saying this is the most mature way to deal with these situations. but i remember times where i've acted exactly like that. these days, though, i'm much better at just remaining quiet or possibly even breaking social convention if necessary.

    believe me, though, you don't even begin to understand the weight us INFJs feel (especially younger/less mature ones) while in social situations with people we don't know well.

    p.s. i like what nightning said -- i very often think of someone's small facial twitch, eye movement, or other subtle movement as a very real part of how they feel. so i may act in ways that seem completely irrational to someone who doesn't pick up on small nuances as readily.

  6. #46
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    bluewing, why are we talking about INFJs having "insincere" Fe and not ENFJs or ESFJs?

    i find that INFJs are much less likely to overuse their Fe (duh) than ExFJs -- all the INFJs i've met have been much more sincere than the ExFJs i know.

    okay, but back to the topic...i know that i've had a tendency to defer to Fe before deferring to pure logic (Ti) -- and i could understand how this would be viewed as insincere by an NTP.

    the thing that NTPs will never understand (feel), though, is that us INFJs are painfully aware of social roles and possible consequences, and we can easily find ourselves in situations where we CANNOT be completely honest/open because we can so easily see what it would do to the people around us. i know from personal experience that there are many times in which i have a completely logically sound view of a concept from many different perspectives (Ni and Ti), but my Fe knows that it cannot be said. or, when i'm lucky, my Fe will find a way to organize my thoughts such that i can get them out without offending anyone (only in a totally roundabout way, unfortunately).

    so when you see an INFJ being "insincere", just try to understand that they are probably in a social position in which "faking it" is the best alternative they can see.

    now, i'm not saying this is the most mature way to deal with these situations. but i remember times where i've acted exactly like that. these days, though, i'm much better at just remaining quiet or possibly even breaking social convention if necessary.

    believe me, though, you don't even begin to understand the weight us INFJs feel (especially younger/less mature ones) while in social situations with people we don't know well.

    p.s. i like what nightning said -- i very often think of someone's small facial twitch, eye movement, or other subtle movement as a very real part of how they feel. so i may act in ways that seem completely irrational to someone who doesn't pick up on small nuances as readily.

    The problem INFJ abuse of Fe is different from the one typically observed in EFJs.

    EFJs overuse it, yet unhealthy INFJs will use Fe as means to the end of furtherance of their vision. The EFJ will see successful relationships as an end in itself, yet the INFJ only means to the end of appeasing their own vainglory.
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  7. #47
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The problem INFJ abuse of Fe is different from the one typically observed in EFJs.

    EFJs overuse it, yet unhealthy INFJs will use Fe as means to the end of furtherance of their vision. The EFJ will see successful relationships as an end in itself, yet the INFJ only means to the end of appeasing their own vainglory.
    i don't know if i agree with your assessment of INFJs' Fe use. i guess i can only speak for myself -- but this is how it works for me:

    say i have some Ni vision and my Fe can't think of a way to act it out appropriately. well, i just keep on Ni-ing. Ni keeps sending revised visions to Fe to implement. and Fe may very well keep rejecting them. but it's not like i'll give up after my first try. i may give up eventually, sure, but don't think that i'm gonna be satisfied moving on after Ni's first try.

    hmm now that i'm rereading your post, maybe i'm misunderstanding what you just said. care to explain further?

  8. #48
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    *FJs---keep in mind, I am not looking for a solution to settle into, I'd be much more interested in your brainstorming than your conclusions. I already have a plausible solution in mind to this problem, more perspectives would never hurt.
    I don't really understand your objective. I notice you're being careful to differentiate between 'unhealthy' INFJ's and the other INFJ's. But by saying you have a 'plausible solution' to 'this problem', it seems you have a problem with the INFJ personality as a whole. You say you appreciate Ni, and the insights it can bring. But it seems you just want to isolate the Ni, and want nothing to do with the rest of the INFJ personality. But it all comes as a package....I don't care whether the INFJ is an 'unhealthy' one or a 'healthy' one (and this would be another debate - what constitutes which? Who defines it?) -- all have the same processes. By singling out the 'unhealthy' ones, you in essence are also singling out the others - because we've probably all been there.

    I still don't entirely understand what you're getting at, but ALL INFJ's at one point or another in their lives...or at several points, depending on if they're going through a rough patch or whatever....are no doubt going to exhibit behaviors/character traits that you characterize as a 'Problem'.
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  9. #49
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The EFJ will see successful relationships as an end in itself, yet the INFJ only means to the end of appeasing their own vainglory.
    So what is wrong with that? Nothing wrong with a little pride in your insight when it reaches a new level of clarity or even clairvoyance.

  10. #50
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Please correct me if I'm wrong here BW... I think he's looking for INFJ with a strong enough tertiary Ti. Essentially a complete inversion with Ni and Ti. It's not a healthy combination either. What I don't understand is why are you so afraid of Fe still?

    INFJ is about planning out the ideal AND carrying it out. In order for us to do so, Fe must be there. It's the only way we can satisfy that J afterall.

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