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Thread: INFJs

  1. #11
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I think you probably hit the nail on the head. What is it with NTs and their hatred for compassion? On INTJ central I ran into members who went on and on about how useless it is to be aware of another's feelings. Nothing seems to offend them more than drawing their attention to the condition of other's emotion and pain.
    They aren't all like that. Promise.

    And though I don't personally believe that it is useless to be aware of other's feelings, it doesn't really matter, I am. I can't help it. It's not even a virtue, it's just a trait. For good or for ill, my feelings are tied to the feelings of those around me and that means if I want to feel good, I can't go around making people feel bad. Sometimes that means observing social conventions even when I do not believe they have value beyond maintaining harmony. I do not observe the conventions because I care about the conventions, they are just tools in my toolbox. I observe them because I care about people and about how they feel whether I want to or not. It is not a selfless thing that I do, but it is certainly not insincere.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #12
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    They aren't all like that. Promise.

    And though I don't personally believe that it is useless to be aware of other's feelings, it doesn't really matter, I am. I can't help it. It's not even a virtue, it's just a trait. For good or for ill, my feelings are tied to the feelings of those around me and that means if I want to feel good, I can't go around making people feel bad. Sometimes that means observing social conventions even when I do not believe they have value beyond maintaining harmony. I do not observe the conventions because I care about the conventions, they are just tools in my toolbox. I observe them because I care about people and about how they feel whether I want to or not. It is not a selfless thing that I do, but it is certainly not insincere.
    True dat. I once worried for weeks about a joke I made at another's expense, long after he had already forgotten about it. Some people have learned they can even manipulate me this way. But I'm not ashamed for feeling for others. I actually tend to pity those who don't care. I just find it so hard to relate to those who care only about themselves. It seems to me it would be such a lonely world if you couldn't share in the suffering and happiness of your fellow human beings.

    However, I lack in some of those Fi emotions, such as passion. I'm jealous of those who can feel so strongly about their values and identities that they would fight relentlessly to preserve them.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    True dat. I once worried for weeks about a joke I made at another's expense, long after he had already forgotten about it. Some people have learned they can even manipulate me this way. But I'm not ashamed for feeling for others. I actually tend to pity those who don't care. I just find it so hard to relate to those who care only about themselves. It seems to me it would be such a lonely world if you couldn't share in the suffering and happiness of your fellow human beings.
    It really can make life richer. One of those blessing/curse things in my experience.

    Picking my husband's brain on the subject at hand, he thinks it's possible that the empathy does exist in those who devalue emotion, but it makes them uncomfortable, so they deflect it into anger. IOW, it feels unpleasant so they label it as bad instead of recognizing it as a normal, human empathy reaction and dealing with it accordingly. That actually makes a lot of sense.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It really can make life richer. One of those blessing/curse things in my experience.

    Picking my husband's brain on the subject at hand, he thinks it's possible that the empathy does exist in those who devalue emotion, but it makes them uncomfortable, so they deflect it into anger. IOW, it feels unpleasant so they label it as bad instead of recognizing it as a normal, human empathy reaction and dealing with it accordingly. That actually makes a lot of sense.
    I see. I guess if something makes somebody feel bad and they can't deal with it directly then they are very likely to avoid it or hate it. So perhaps what a lot of NTs need are tips on how to understand and deal with empathy and compassion. Otherwise they are just going to become completely impersonal.

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Sincerity and genuineness are pretty key to the INFJ.
    Not after they've gone neurotic...

    Keep in mind, I am not talking about how Fe typically functions with the INFJ, that was the Ni-Fe(Fi effect) that I found pleasant..

    The cant part does not come in until they start doing something like...

    "Interesting. But I disagree. When I turn to Fe, sometimes it's about using Fe to promulgate Ni goals... that could be what seems hollow to you. But that's how auxiliary functions tend to serve dominant ones. "

    In such case compassion and sincerity are only as good as they conduce to their Ni vision.


    P.S

    Whose joke was it to change my type to INTJ ?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Not after they've gone neurotic...

    Keep in mind, I am not talking about how Fe typically functions with the INFJ, that was the Ni-Fe(Fi effect) that I found pleasant..

    The cant part does not come in until they start doing something like...

    "Interesting. But I disagree. When I turn to Fe, sometimes it's about using Fe to promulgate Ni goals... that could be what seems hollow to you. But that's how auxiliary functions tend to serve dominant ones. "
    I notice something similar with INTJs where they will start spouting off information regardless of relevance, as if trying to bury the point at hand under a mountain of data. I think it is a defense that results when an Ni dominant is threatened. They pull in the Fe or Te in an attempt to cope. The obvious solution is to stop whatever you are doing to put them on the defensive.

    However, this isn't a typical response for healthy INTJs or INFJs. It's indicative that they have given themselves to their intuition and since they probably can't justify their hunches with concrete evidence, they are just pouring on the Te or Fe in anticipation that whoever they are talking to will inevitably come to the same conclusion.

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post

    However, this isn't a typical response for healthy INTJs or INFJs. It's indicative that they have given themselves to their intuition and since they probably can't justify their hunches with concrete evidence, they are just pouring on the Te or Fe in anticipation that whoever they are talking to will inevitably come to the same conclusion.

    Correct. In this thread I am predominantly concerned with very unhealthy INFJs.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #18
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think the piece you are missing is empathy.
    I guess I just cant empathize with hollow and trite emotion..i dont think this shows that I lack empathy in general.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I lose regard for them because at this point its not even about interpersonal matters anymore or exploration of the human element, its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow.
    Hypothetically, the accusation in the OP can be turned back on you. That is, the OP sounds like Ne cant.

    Sure, it's good to talk about how personality types might be misusing their non-dominant functions. But why single out one particular personality type and dog them about how you and other INTPs can't put up with them due to potential neurotic application of their Auxiliary function. As if that's a big part of who they are.

    Answer: Everyone knows that INTPs typically don't understand and don't like Fe. But it's difficult to trash Fe in Fe-dominant types (ENFJs and ESFJs), because the function is actually a fairly powerful and effective tool when used by them and it has its defenders. So you trash Fe when used as an Auxiliary, particularly by immature INFJs. By showing that Fe can indeed be abused by its owners, you raise questions about its sincerity in general.

    Again, it sounds like Ne cant coming from an immature INTP: Your Ti is very self-involved; your Ne makes the world seem very intrusive and puts you on the defensive; so you use Ne neurotically to dream up ways to attack and minimize the biggest bugaboo of the INTPs: Fe. You do a big song and dance about how INFJs are untrustworthy due to their Auxiliary Fe: "Yet, when they turn to their Fe, I notice myself rapidly losing regard for them. [...] its just cant. Its about showing emotion just to show it irrespectively of how trite and hollow."

    You would do better to take your own advice. Use your own Auxiliary Ne to inform your Dominant Ti, rather than to attack and fend off aspects of the world you don't like. Extraverted Feeling is a powerful tool. Rather than attacking it in places where it's vulnerable (immature INFJs), study it in Fe-dominant types (ENFJs and ESFJs) and learn to appreciate it as a powerful and positive tool for understanding and managing the world around oneself.

    Note that I'm just showing you how the accusation in the OP can be turned back on you, as a hypothetical exercise. I do personally tend to think that you yourself misuse your Ne by getting overly defensive and launching attacks on parts of the world you don't like (as opposed to using it in a healthy manner to inform your Ti about the world around you). But I won't insist on that interpretation.

    Mainly I just bring all this up to answer the question that you raised in the OP. By showing you how you come off as potentially exhibiting the same problem that you describe, you can perhaps find an answer.

    IOW: How does one deal with BlueWing, who uses his Ne Auxiliary in neurotic fashion to attack bits of the world that he fears or dislikes? By realizing that immature use of his Auxiliary is only a small part of his overall personality (albeit a vastly irritating one) and that he'll eventually mature and grow out of it as he learns to use his Auxiliary in a more healthy fashion (i.e., to inform his Ti about the world).

    Thus: How should BlueWing deal with immature INFJs, who use their Fe Auxiliary in neurotic fashion to manipulate bits of the world that they fear or dislike? By realizing that it's only a small part of their personality and that they'll eventually mature and grow out of it as they learn to use their Auxiliary in a more healthy fashion (i.e., to inform their Ni about the world).

    How should we deal with immature people of all personality types who use their various Auxiliaries in neurotic fashion to manipulate bits of the world that they fear or dislike? By realizing (...blah blah blah).

  10. #20
    Member lbloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    P.S

    Whose joke was it to change my type to INTJ ?
    Ha ha, awesome.


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